38 replies to this topic

[and then]

http://www.usatoday....test/54103832/1

Apparently Terry Jones did not think his 15 minutes were sufficient.  I strongly disagree with burning of the Quran.  But I think the cause for his protest is worthy even if it's probably premature.

[ciriuslea]

and then, on 07 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

http://www.usatoday....test/54103832/1

Apparently Terry Jones did not think his 15 minutes were sufficient.  I strongly disagree with burning of the Quran.  But I think the cause for his protest is worthy even if it's probably premature.

If Islam had its way he wouldn't be able to criticize the religion, or protest against it so I respect his protest...if he owns the books he is burning then whats the problem.....The Quran is full of hate for non Muslims and the texts are interpreted that way as we know by fundamentalists..what is wrong with burning something that says Terry Jones is an infidel and threatens his security with texts like..fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them, Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme..

[and then]

ciriuslea, on 08 April 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

If Islam had its way he wouldn't be able to criticize the religion, or protest against it so I respect his protest...if he owns the books he is burning then whats the problem.....The Quran is full of hate for non Muslims and the texts are interpreted that way as we know by fundamentalists..what is wrong with burning something that says Terry Jones is an infidel and threatens his security with texts like..fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them, Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme..

I believe his protest is valid.  I am against burning the Qur'an because it just fuels the fire of hatred.  That doesn't mean I agree with the tenets held in it's pages.  Welcome to UM BTW.
Once you're here awhile you'll see that I'm one of the more outspoken against the abuses of Islam and the dangers it poses the world as a religious/political entity bent on subjugation and domination. His protest will be seen by many Americans as low brow and racist even though they have no idea what true Islam stands for.  Burning the book is just unnecessary as far as I'm concerned.  Better to quote from it liberally and show what it truly advocates

[Englishgent]

You will also find that 'and then' generally gives an honest and informed reply or opinion to most things. I dont agree with everything he says, but in this case I do agree. Why fuel hatred?  

[Leonardo]

As much as the burning of the US flag is expressive, and protected under freedoms, so is the burning of the Qur'an, or the bible, Torah, etc. All of those symbols are simply material objects and have no inherent 'holiness' about them.

Those to whom such expressions [as burning objects] signify 'hate' (or inflame in them 'hatred'), are incorrectly identifying the subject of their worship - effectively idolising a material item representing that subject. Muslims worship Allah, the Qur'an is not Allah.

Or is it?

Perhaps those who only worship according to what a book has taught them understand, on some unconscious and fundamental level, that the book is their god.

Edited by Leonardo, 10 April 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[libstaK]

Leonardo, on 10 April 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

As much as the burning of the US flag is expressive, and protected under freedoms, so is the burning of the Qur'an, or the bible, Torah, etc. All of those symbols are simply material objects and have no inherent 'holiness' about them.

Those to whom such expressions [as burning objects] signify 'hate' (or inflame in them 'hatred'), are incorrectly identifying the subject of their worship - effectively idolising a material item representing that subject. Muslims worship Allah, the Qur'an is not Allah.

Or is it?

Perhaps those who only worship according to what a book has taught them understand, on some unconscious and fundamental level, that the book is their god.

That is far too profound a notion to apply only to Islam or even only to Religion.

[Beckys_Mom]

and then, on 07 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

http://www.usatoday....test/54103832/1

Apparently Terry Jones did not think his 15 minutes were sufficient.  I strongly disagree with burning of the Quran.  But I think the cause for his protest is worthy even if it's probably premature.

When he was first reported  on the news and everyone slamming him...I kind of felt sorry for the man....

He has guts gotta hand him that....

[Parsip]

Leonardo, on 10 April 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Those to whom such expressions [as burning objects] signify 'hate' (or inflame in them 'hatred'), are incorrectly identifying the subject of their worship - effectively idolising a material item representing that subject. Muslims worship Allah, the Qur'an is not Allah.

Or is it?

They get upset because it's an insult to them and Islam, not because they worship the Quran or Muhammad.

This pastor is either very stupid or very brave, but I don't know what he hopes to accomplish.

[Leonardo]

Parsip, on 10 April 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

They get upset because it's an insult to them and Islam, not because they worship the Quran or Muhammad.

This pastor is either very stupid or very brave, but I don't know what he hopes to accomplish.

If they didn't worship (or idolise) the Qur'an, then there would be nothing to feel insulted about. It would just be some slightly-cracked person burning a book.

But this does not only apply to Muslims, it is also true of Christians and all the other religions which depend on a book for their 'truth' about divinity.

libstaK,

My thanks for the compliment, and it might not apply only to religions as we define religion - but it does apply to anyone who holds what a book (or document) states, in any form of quasi-religious reverence. It may even apply to how some people view non-textual symbols - like flags.

Edited by Leonardo, 10 April 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[kmt_sesh]

For those of you who support this pastor and seem to think Muslims stand behind an itinerary of violence and world domination, I must ask: how many Muslims do you know. I mean, really know?

I've been fortunate to have met many Muslims in the dozen years I've lived in Chicago, to have worked with many of them, and to have befriended several of them. One was a particularly dear friend who passed away about a year ago.

I myself think this pastor is a bonafide idiot.

He is an open racist, clearly not terribly bright, and obviously an exceedingly poor example of his profession. You're supporting a man of God who is openly castigating an entire religion and its practitioners.

I was raised Roman Catholic. I've not practiced the religion most of my adult life, but I am not an atheist. I appreciate the value of religion, particularly when it's used appropriately: to enlighten one's self and to practice a set of moral values in one's life. This pastor, on the other hand, is a classic example of the pompous, deluded Christian who uses religion not only to look down upon others but as a blunt weapon. Who's the savage here, exactly?

We throw stones at Muslims, and goodness knows a percentage of them are stuck in a medieval mindset in which violence is advocated, but recall the countless atrocities down through the centuries for which the Church is guilty. And to be sure, this percentage of Muslims who advocate violence represent something probably on the order of one-half of one percent. If that.

Of all the Muslims I've met, of those with whom I've spoken about their religion, and of those whom I've befriended, none would advocate the sort of violence embraced by their fundamentalist minority.

I for one do not understand the reactionary fervor to which many Muslims do tend to jump when they feel slighted. For instance, recently when those soldiers accidentally burned Qurans in Afghanistan, the resulting uproar and riots among Afghanis led to the deaths of 30 of their own people. Not our soldiers, in retaliation, but their own people. No, I don't understand that. In my opinion, no matter how religiously significant a book might be--be it a Bible or Torah or Quran--it is not worth a human life. In some cases I believe Muslims who already possess an anti-American bent look for excuses to exercise outbursts. It's not something I'll probably never understand, but then again I am not some poverty-stricken, mostly illiterate villager being influenced by zealous imams my entire life.

So it's not as though I'm blind to the potential for violence, but in the same light I see no rational cause for risking more of it. If anyone dies because of this pastor's action, be it a Muslim or non-Muslim, it will go back to that pastor's actions.

How would we feel if a group of Muslims carried a Bible to the steps of a Catholic Church and burned it?

[and then]

Seeing a Bible burned would greatly offend me but I would not be driven to violence because of it.  I actually would feel badly for the hatred that person was living with in their life.  But this "pastor" is expressing the views of a good many Americans who are frustrated and fed up with the wars and with the potential violence that hangs over America due to radical Islam.  To act as though the danger doesn't exist because a majority of adherents to Islam are peaceful is like saying you shouldn't fear a pathological murderer because most humans don't kill.  The only issue I have with the majority of Muslims is that they do NOT condemn this behavior.  Their reasons are their own but when they refuse to condemn the behavior then they are passively complicit in it.
I think this so called pastor is an idiot looking for his 15 minutes.  He may get a lot more than that before he's through.  I say again - it is a far more effective tool to quote from the Qur'an and Hadiths and to explain the traditions associated with this religion than it ever will be to just burn a book out of spiteful hatred.

[kmt_sesh]

and then, on 11 April 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Seeing a Bible burned would greatly offend me but I would not be driven to violence because of it.  I actually would feel badly for the hatred that person was living with in their life.  But this "pastor" is expressing the views of a good many Americans who are frustrated and fed up with the wars and with the potential violence that hangs over America due to radical Islam.  To act as though the danger doesn't exist because a majority of adherents to Islam are peaceful is like saying you shouldn't fear a pathological murderer because most humans don't kill.  The only issue I have with the majority of Muslims is that they do NOT condemn this behavior.  Their reasons are their own but when they refuse to condemn the behavior then they are passively complicit in it.
I think this so called pastor is an idiot looking for his 15 minutes.  He may get a lot more than that before he's through.  I say again - it is a far more effective tool to quote from the Qur'an and Hadiths and to explain the traditions associated with this religion than it ever will be to just burn a book out of spiteful hatred.

I am in full agreement that Muslims do not do enough to police themselves and it is an excellent point. I've always felt this way. People are big on speeches but short on action. There is a lot of work here in the U.S. among Muslim communities to school and counsel their children toward more peaceful, productive, and useful futures, but I don't know if this has much if any effect on Muslims living in the Middle East or elsewhere. That's where the problems are.

In the harsh light of reality, however this idiot pastor's actions will achieve nothing positive. It will not change or affect radical Islam, nor will it change or affect U.S. foreign policy. In the extreme it's likely to enflame Muslim villages in backwater countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, where violence is already an every-day reality. It's also possible that this idiot pastor's actions will actually worsen the situation in the U.S., if only to a limited extent. Islam in the United States is already pretty moderate, but I don't think it's an intelligent thing for us to push people's buttons when they're not asking us to push their buttons.

I honestly don't think this idiot pastor will have any positive or useful effect by burning Qurans. Nothing good will come from it. Do we really want to push moderate Muslims into extreme actions? Do we really want to encourage the prejudice and ignorance from which too many Americans already suffer?

The only real thing I think this idiot pastor is proving is that he's an idiot.

[Leonardo]

kmt_sesh, on 11 April 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

The only real thing I think this idiot pastor is proving is that he's an idiot.

I don't disagree with your estimation of the pastor, kmt, but would you not consider a violent reaction to his act out of proportion to it?

He is burning a book, but so what?

If it was a rare and valuable copy of it - with historic and artistic value - then I could see some merit in getting up-in-arms. But in all likelihood it is a modern mass-produced volume and the end result of his action will amount to nothing.

Would you be upset over a person destroying modern, mass-produced, valueless replica's of Ancient Egyptian treasures?

Edited by Leonardo, 11 April 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

and then, on 11 April 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

I think this so called pastor is an idiot looking for his 15 minutes.  He may get a lot more than that before he's through.  I say again - it is a far more effective tool to quote from the Qur'an and Hadiths and to explain the traditions associated with this religion than it ever will be to just burn a book out of spiteful hatred.

Pushing aside all the names people call this man...He is taking a stand for his beliefs...  Sometimes people can take things far  in doing so...He has his beliefs  just like everyone else  .. And like many he will push harder  to get people to take note...  I say  he may be wrong in the qur'an but  he has his reasons...We may not all agree with him...but  I do not see it any different from  those that burn books  elsewhere

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 11 April 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[hetrodoxly]

kmt_sesh, on 10 April 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

For those of you who support this pastor and seem to think Muslims stand behind an itinerary of violence and world domination, I must ask: how many Muslims do you know. I mean, really know?

I've been fortunate to have met many Muslims in the dozen years I've lived in Chicago, to have worked with many of them, and to have befriended several of them. One was a particularly dear friend who passed away about a year ago.

I myself think this pastor is a bonafide idiot.

He is an open racist, clearly not terribly bright, and obviously an exceedingly poor example of his profession. You're supporting a man of God who is openly castigating an entire religion and its practitioners.

I was raised Roman Catholic. I've not practiced the religion most of my adult life, but I am not an atheist. I appreciate the value of religion, particularly when it's used appropriately: to enlighten one's self and to practice a set of moral values in one's life. This pastor, on the other hand, is a classic example of the pompous, deluded Christian who uses religion not only to look down upon others but as a blunt weapon. Who's the savage here, exactly?

We throw stones at Muslims, and goodness knows a percentage of them are stuck in a medieval mindset in which violence is advocated, but recall the countless atrocities down through the centuries for which the Church is guilty. And to be sure, this percentage of Muslims who advocate violence represent something probably on the order of one-half of one percent. If that.

Of all the Muslims I've met, of those with whom I've spoken about their religion, and of those whom I've befriended, none would advocate the sort of violence embraced by their fundamentalist minority.

I for one do not understand the reactionary fervor to which many Muslims do tend to jump when they feel slighted. For instance, recently when those soldiers accidentally burned Qurans in Afghanistan, the resulting uproar and riots among Afghanis led to the deaths of 30 of their own people. Not our soldiers, in retaliation, but their own people. No, I don't understand that. In my opinion, no matter how religiously significant a book might be--be it a Bible or Torah or Quran--it is not worth a human life. In some cases I believe Muslims who already possess an anti-American bent look for excuses to exercise outbursts. It's not something I'll probably never understand, but then again I am not some poverty-stricken, mostly illiterate villager being influenced by zealous imams my entire life.

So it's not as though I'm blind to the potential for violence, but in the same light I see no rational cause for risking more of it. If anyone dies because of this pastor's action, be it a Muslim or non-Muslim, it will go back to that pastor's actions.

How would we feel if a group of Muslims carried a Bible to the steps of a Catholic Church and burned it?

How many Muslims? thousands, School, neighbours, worked with, worked for and had them working for me, this statement might surprise might upset but never the less it's true, "I've never met an honest one" i don't support the pastor but would defend his right to burn the Quran, Muslims don't have to be offended they just choose to be, what has race got to do with it?

Edited by hetrodoxly, 11 April 2012 - 04:10 PM.