92 replies to this topic

[TheLastLazyGun]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

So they occupy the Palestinians for over 40 years continuously shouting "We want to be friends", then get annoyed when Hamas retaliates.



I find it strange how so many manage to completely reverse cause and effect.

I want you to post a map of this Palestinian state which you are referring to.

I also would like you to post me a list of all the leaders that have ever ruled Palestine over the years, be they kings, queens, presidents, prime ministers or whatever.

I want you to provide concrete evidence that there was once a country called Palestine, because Im afraid I'm struggling to do so at the moment.

[TheLastLazyGun]

MichaelW, on 18 November 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Personally, I want to see a free Palestine.

Why?  There has never been one before.

[MichaelW]

TheLastLazyGun, on 20 November 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Why?  There has never been one before.

Was there an independent Kosovo before the 90's? Was there an independent Algeria before the 1963? Just because a state didn't exist before doesn't mean a future one is not viable.

Edited by MichaelW, 20 November 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

TheLastLazyGun, on 20 November 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

I want you to post a map of this Palestinian state which you are referring to.

I also would like you to post me a list of all the leaders that have ever ruled Palestine over the years, be they kings, queens, presidents, prime ministers or whatever.

I want you to provide concrete evidence that there was once a country called Palestine, because Im afraid I'm struggling to do so at the moment.

I was under the impression that during the Roman Empire the region we now call Israel and Palestine was callled Palestine and then under the Persians it was still called Palestine.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

TheLastLazyGun, on 20 November 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

I want you to post a map of this Palestinian state which you are referring to.

I also would like you to post me a list of all the leaders that have ever ruled Palestine over the years, be they kings, queens, presidents, prime ministers or whatever.

I want you to provide concrete evidence that there was once a country called Palestine, because Im afraid I'm struggling to do so at the moment.

I was under the impression that during the Roman Empire the region we now call Israel and Palestine was callled Palestine and then under the Persians it was still called Palestine.

[and then]

Wearer of Hats, on 21 November 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I was under the impression that during the Roman Empire the region we now call Israel and Palestine was callled Palestine and then under the Persians it was still called Palestine.

My understanding is that "Israel" was sacked and destroyed by Rome after about a 4 year siege.  From approx. 70 AD on the Roman name for the area - Palestine -  (named for Israel's chief rivals the Philistines) was the one applied to the territory once held by the Jews of Israel.  They never controlled the land for any extended period, historically speaking, but it is silly when the modern Palestinians attempt to claim that Israel NEVER existed on the land at any time.

[ExpandMyMind]

TheLastLazyGun, on 20 November 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

So why did they start firing rockets into Israel?  Did they do it accidentally?



Is that the same "peaceful" Hamas which not only started this current conflict by firing missiles into Israel but does so on a regular basis?

Is that the same "peaceful" Hamas which uses the people of Gaza as human shields, something which has been noticed by many people yet, for some strange reason, has not been considered bad enough by the UN to issue Hamas with any UN resolution?

Is that the same "peaceful" Hamas which regularly tortures and terrorises the people of Gaza, leading to human rights groups targeting the organising for its human rights abuses but which, again, has not been punished by the UN for issuing Hamas with any UN resolution?

They started to fire rockets into Israel because their people are under occupation. But more recently the rockets escalated because Israel killed one of their leaders. A man that was working towards peace, no less. Funny that.

Hamas don't use human shields. This is Israeli propaganda and has been proven as such. On the other hand, human rights organisations discovered that Israel were guilty of using Gazan children as human shields during Operation Cast Lead. Do a forum search of 'human shields' with myself as the author and you'll see all the proof you need.

Your last statement is completely untrue except for a few isolated cases, so it's not even worth addressing other than to say that even if it was true, the UN cannot pass resolutions against non states.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 21 November 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[pbarosso]

look people. might makes right in this matter. when you got a rag tag bunch of people refusing to coexist, you wipe them out, force them to move away from your borders, or live with the problem forever. it has always been this way, being a hippie peace activist wont change this. you cant force education or ideas on an entire people and expec them to believe. if mexico was sending rockets and bombs over the border we would deal with it the exact same way....

whether one side or the other is right is immaterial, isreal is a productive first world state that has the land right now. feeling sorry for those displaced "palestinians" is not going to help because the jews were displaced too at one point. hell everyone has been displaced so take this feeling of pity out of the equation and look at it for what it really is.

[and then]

pbarosso, on 21 November 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

look people. might makes right in this matter. when you got a rag tag bunch of people refusing to coexist, you wipe them out, force them to move away from your borders, or live with the problem forever. it has always been this way, being a hippie peace activist wont change this. you cant force education or ideas on an entire people and expec them to believe. if mexico was sending rockets and bombs over the border we would deal with it the exact same way....

whether one side or the other is right is immaterial, isreal is a productive first world state that has the land right now. feeling sorry for those displaced "palestinians" is not going to help because the jews were displaced too at one point. hell everyone has been displaced so take this feeling of pity out of the equation and look at it for what it really is.

You've touched on an aspect of this conflict that makes it unlike most of those that came before.  Even though millions of Jews and Poles among many others, were displaced after WWII, they reintegrated themselves into new places and began producing again.  They did so because they had no other choice and they had no sponsor nations that would support them and tell the world how they had been abused.  The Palestinians never accepted their displacement (by the UN and Britain) and they as an entire people began to be used as a "human shield" against Israel.  Very similar to China and Russia using the Vietnamese or Koreans to sap the energy of their enemy, the US.  It's been a very effective technique but it's effectiveness is now beginning to wane and the dangers associated with it  are growing.

[ExpandMyMind]

ExpandMyMind, on 21 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

But more recently the rockets escalated because Israel killed one of their leaders.

Sorry, I should say that the escalation began when A soldier in a helicopter shot dead a child playing soccer on the 8th of this month.

[and then]

ExpandMyMind, on 21 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

They started to fire rockets into Israel because their people are under occupation. But more recently the rockets escalated because Israel killed one of their leaders. A man that was working towards peace, no less. Funny that.

Hamas don't use human shields. This is Israeli propaganda and has been proven as such. On the other hand, human rights organisations discovered that Israel were guilty of using Gazan children as human shields during Operation Cast Lead. Do a forum search of 'human shields' with myself as the author and you'll see all the proof you need.

Your last statement is completely untrue except for a few isolated cases, so it's not even worth addressing other than to say that even if it was true, the UN cannot pass resolutions against non states.

It may seem a minor point but I think it worth mentioning that on a LinkTV interview Gershon Baskom (sp) said that while he  (a Jew) was negotiating with Jabari through intermediaries - because Jabari would not speak to a Jew - Jabari made it very clear that the arrangement he had in mind was NOT peace it was HUDNA.  I think that is significant to this conversation because it is a reminder of the ultimate mindset of the Palestinian side.  No permanent cessation of war until the war is won.  And I think that in time their strategy will prevail - just not for them.

[ExpandMyMind]

and then, on 21 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

It may seem a minor point but I think it worth mentioning that on a LinkTV interview Gershon Baskom (sp) said that while he  (a Jew) was negotiating with Jabari through intermediaries - because Jabari would not speak to a Jew - Jabari made it very clear that the arrangement he had in mind was NOT peace it was HUDNA.  I think that is significant to this conversation because it is a reminder of the ultimate mindset of the Palestinian side.  No permanent cessation of war until the war is won.  And I think that in time their strategy will prevail - just not for them.

All temporary ceasefires are 'Hudnas'. It is a foundation to negotiate peace from.
And it wasn't 'Jews' that he wouldn't talk to, it was Israeli leaders and Israeli officials sent to mediate.

[and then]

ExpandMyMind, on 21 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

All temporary ceasefires are 'Hudnas'. It is a foundation to negotiate peace from.
And it wasn't 'Jews' that he wouldn't talk to, it was Israeli leaders and Israeli officials sent to mediate.

World English Dictionary hudna (ˈhʊdnə)  — n  Islam a truce or ceasefire for a fixed duration         Gershon is an Israeli peace activist and HE stated that Jabari said he would not speak to a Jew.  His words - not mine.

Edited by and then, 21 November 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

As I have posted before Israel does not compromise nor does it seek peace, anything that would negate or stall their progress towards a Greater Israel is definitely not in their interests. The Zionist Likud extremists and their Ultra-orthodox partners in power since Rabin's assassination have hijacked the current Israeli political system; they are not interested in any equitable agreement with the Palestinians, be it Hamas or the PLO. Their sole objective has been to destroy the viability of the Two-State solution reached in Oslo under the Clinton administration (which was roughly based on the 1967 borders, with future negotiations on the status of Jerusalem and the right for refugees to return to be settled within Oslo's framework for a comprehensive peace).

The Oslo Accords were intentionally ditched by Israel because of the Zionist goal for a Greater Israel, which would encompass all the lands of the West Bank. If Israel truly wanted peace they could have had it back in 1995. Instead they continued to expand existing illegal settlements on occupied West Bank land and to erect new illegal settlements which displace poor Palestinians farmers and homeowners that have been living there for centuries. These Israeli actions lead to the Second Intifada in 2000 and ever since then the bloodshed has not stopped.

Here's a brief historic perspective from Wiki-pedia on the subject of a Greater Israel:

Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; ‘At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states. The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.^[1] The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

[and then]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 21 November 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

As I have posted before Israel does not compromise nor does it seek peace, anything that would negate or stall their progress towards a Greater Israel is definitely not in their interests. The Zionist Likud extremists and their Ultra-orthodox partners in power since Rabin's assassination have hijacked the current Israeli political system; they are not interested in any equitable agreement with the Palestinians, be it Hamas or the PLO. Their sole objective has been to destroy the viability of the Two-State solution reached in Oslo under the Clinton administration (which was roughly based on the 1967 borders, with future negotiations on the status of Jerusalem and the right for refugees to return to be settled within Oslo's framework for a comprehensive peace).

The Oslo Accords were intentionally ditched by Israel because of the Zionist goal for a Greater Israel, which would encompass all the lands of the West Bank. If Israel truly wanted peace they could have had it back in 1995. Instead they continued to expand existing illegal settlements on occupied West Bank land and to erect new illegal settlements which displace poor Palestinians farmers and homeowners that have been living there for centuries. These Israeli actions lead to the Second Intifada in 2000 and ever since then the bloodshed has not stopped.

Here's a brief historic perspective from Wiki-pedia on the subject of a Greater Israel:

Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; ‘At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states. The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.^[1] The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

These people are drowning and you are describing the water.  The point is that if Israel unilaterally disarmed and tried to reach a deal then they would be turned out of the land.  That is never going to happen.  The reality is that no matter which sideone supports here, someone is going to have to compromise or the wars continue until no hudnas are possible and it's a fight to the death of one people or another.  THAT is the reality today, regardless what led us to it.