84 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

Bluefinger, on 13 September 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

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That doesn't really seem sound to me.  It is obvious that those who wrote down many of the Hebrew Scriptures believed that the Messiah would be a literal person.

Judaism is a progressive way of life. Would you please quote to me where in the Jewish Scriptures an individual Messiah is implied? True that still many individual Jews believe in an individual Messiah; but this thrend is disappearing as we learn better.

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After 2,000 years of not having their own land, I can understand why some Jews would try to refine the Messianic prophecies.  The Jeremiah prophecy you mentioned wasn't in context to the Messiah, but the people.

You are right; the People-Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; His anointed one." That's what the word Messiah means in the original in Hebrew; God's anointed one.

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It is clear from many Scriptures that the Messiah would come and deliver His people a new covenant.  Am I to believe now that the recipients are also the providers of the new covenant?  That is close to Pharisaic theology, wouldn't you say?

All covenants have been made by man with God and not by God with man. To claim the other way around is only the Jewish way to make the statement holy.

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Obviously, I believe that Jesus is and has always been the Messiah.

Jesus has been dead for 2,000 years. The Messiah cannot die. He was part of the Messiah during the 33 years he lived here on earth. That's all.

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It is Jewish prophecy that the Messiah would enter the second temple and that it's glory would be greater than Solomon's temple.

Right! The Messiah did live long enough to enter the second Temple with the return of the Jewish People from exile in Babylon.

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We both know that Herod, who lavished the temple, was not the Messiah.  Seeing that the temple was destroyed and the only one who both claimed to be the Messiah and prophesied the temple's destruction, wouldn't it be better to say that Jesus, who resurrected, is the Messiah than to say that the people who asked the Romans to occupy their land in the first place were both the providers and recipients of the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31?

Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah, and he never resurrected.  Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy that it was according to his - Paul's gospel - that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected. (2 Tim. 2:8) This happened about 35 years after Jesus had been gone. The Jews of then never asked the Romans to occupy their land. They made an agreement with the Romans in order to prevent a second war front to make it harder on them with the Greeks. The Romans had become too powerful and the Jews knew it. (I Mac. 12:16-18)

Ben

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 14 September 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

It was an ignorant Arab who quoted it to me.

Well you just remember, David Ben-Gurion said it first in 1961 before the Knesset and nobody said it before him. It is a propaganda tool he fabricated himself.

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Yes, Ishmael was also a descendant of Abraham, "BUT, My Covenant, said the Lord, I will maintain with Isaac" ...and not with Ishmael. (Gen. 17:21) Then, if you read further in Genesis 21:10, Abraham was demanded to "Drive Hagar and Ishmael out  because he could not share the inheritance of the Land with Isaac the son of Sarah, aka, the Jews.

Yeah, how many times have the Jews been driven out... and why did God drive the Jews out? Hmmm.

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Genesis 15:18 inplies the Divine promise that has not been fulfilled YET. It does not mean at all that God has been proved a liar. The descendants of Abraham through Isaac are still around, aren't they? So, that conclusion about God is not becoming.

Do you think Israel can expand from the River Nile to the River Euphrates? I would like to see them try. In fact, Jews arent like the sands of the sea you know but the descendants of Abraham sure are.

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It just happened that "Palestina" was the name given in honor to the Roman Emperor's wife. Nothing related to a specific people.

Whatever. I thought Palestine was  Philistia in the Roman tongue. Whatever. It dont really matter.

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Perhaps you will not understand, the prophetic tone here that, no matter what, a prophecy is not over until it is fulfilled. The fact that only very few of the Jews decided to return, was also prophesyed in Isaiah 10:22. "Although the Jews were like the sand of the sea, only a small remnant of them would return."
From Babylon only 42,360 returned with Ezra in the first Aliyah. (Ezra 2:64) After the present exile, which ended soon after WW1 very few indeed returned
because Herzl was not charismatic enough; but the process has been continuous to this very day. So much so that we still have more Jews abroad than here in Israel. But we are already a majority of more than six million Israelis in the hope that an added two million join us from USA, God willing!

Right, that is why Jews are beginning to emigrate out of Israel in record numbers. Aliyah ... right ... a secular Zionist pipedream that is quickly logjammed at its mouth due to its discriminations, occupations, illegal settlements, war crimes, and ethnic cleansing.

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Political balderdash!

It is true, Arab Palestinians werent aware of the Balfour Declaration until it was too late. Britain and the Zionists never once consulted the Arab Palestinians about this development it was the second massive shock after the Arabs had just learned about the Sykes-Picot Agreement made on May 16th 1916. Britian promised the Arab independence, self-determination, and sovereignty if they would assist in fighting the Turks an obligation that the Arabs did fulfill.

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Many different peoples have ruled that enclave in the Middle East which has never ceased to be called the Land of Israel for the Jews, and Palestine because of Hadrian, the Roman Emperor, but it has never been an independent State governed by none. There has never been an independent country called Palestine in the History of the world. Therefore, Palestinians have never governed that region as an independent entity for a single day. Since you cannot prove with the opposite of what I am saying, the math was not that hard to figure.

But the Palestinians are arabicized Canaanites, Philistines, and Hebrews. No matter the Arab Muslims still ruled  that land nearly continuously for 1,300 years. It took two World Wars and a complete shift of the geopolitical strata by super powers to change that.

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Mere verbal juggling that means nothing.

Verbal juggling? 1,300 is a long, long, long, loooonnnngggg time. 150-200  years is younger than the United States.

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If you take that route, what was there before the "big bang?" The atheists do not know. Where are the Canaanites? Let them come to claim Jerusalem from David. What are the Palestinians talking about? They have been there from yesterday. The Jews from the day before. Those who were there before the Jews, do not exist anymore.

Ben

The Palestinians were there the day before the Jews. The Palestinians are the Canaanites and Palestinians and Hebrews. The "pure" Arabs are the Bedouins not the Palestinians.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 14 September 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[B Jenkins]

More on the disproportionate emigration from Israel compared to the immigration to Israel:

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 14 September 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Well you just remember, David Ben-Gurion said it first in 1961 before the Knesset and nobody said it before him. It is a propaganda tool he fabricated himself.

Yeah, how many times have the Jews been driven out... and why did God drive the Jews out? Hmmm.

Do you think Israel can expand from the River Nile to the River Euphrates? I would like to see them try. In fact, Jews arent like the sands of the sea you know but the descendants of Abraham sure are.

Whatever. I thought Palestine was  Philistia in the Roman tongue. Whatever. It dont really matter.

Right, that is why Jews are beginning to emigrate out of Israel in record numbers. Aliyah ... right ... a secular Zionist pipedream that is quickly logjammed at its mouth due to its discriminations, occupations, illegal settlements, war crimes, and ethnic cleansing.

It is true, Arab Palestinians werent aware of the Balfour Declaration until it was too late. Britain and the Zionists never once consulted the Arab Palestinians about this development it was the second massive shock after the Arabs had just learned about the Sykes-Picot Agreement made on May 16th 1916. Britian promised the Arab independence, self-determination, and sovereignty if they would assist in fighting the Turks an obligation that the Arabs did fulfill.

But the Palestinians are arabicized Canaanites, Philistines, and Hebrews. No matter the Arab Muslims still ruled  that land nearly continuously for 1,300 years. It took two World Wars and a complete shift of the geopolitical strata by super powers to change that.

Verbal juggling? 1,300 is a long, long, long, loooonnnngggg time. 150-200  years is younger than the United States.
The Palestinians were there the day before the Jews. The Palestinians are the Canaanites and Palestinians and Hebrews. The "pure" Arabs are the Bedouins not the Palestinians.

Sorry Ambush, if you meant to be serious at the beginning of this discussion, you have lost that mood. I think we are just wasting each other's time.

Ben

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 17 September 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Sorry Ambush, if you meant to be serious at the beginning of this discussion, you have lost that mood. I think we are just wasting each other's time.

Ben

What did I post that came across as not being serious or lost that mood? What mood?

I am simply stating facts.

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 17 September 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

What did I post that came across as not being serious or lost that mood? What mood?

I am simply stating facts.

Review your posts. You are too tight and hostile as any Jewish claim is concerned. The Moderator has been closing our posts for disrailment. This is not too far a step to closing threads.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 17 September 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Bluefinger]

Ben Masada, on 14 September 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Judaism is a progressive way of life. Would you please quote to me where in the Jewish Scriptures an individual Messiah is implied? True that still many individual Jews believe in an individual Messiah; but this thrend is disappearing as we learn better.

Key phrase:  "this trend is disappearing a we learn better."  

Is it because the Jews have learned better or because the Jewish expectations were not fulfilled and thus the interpretations had to be dramatically revised to be able to maintain a belief in the Messianic prophecies (and thus Jewish tradition)?

I think the latter.  Christians have, from day one, maintained that Jesus the Messiah resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father where He will wait until all nations have become Hos footstool.  The Jews, all of whom believed the Messiah was imminent about the time of Octavian Augustus, must modify the interpretations to imply that an individual was not implied to both believe in the prophecies this far off and to ward off Christian arguments, IMO.

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You are right; the People-Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; His anointed one." That's what the word Messiah means in the original in Hebrew; God's anointed one.

So the people deliver themselves?  If so, why was their a sacrificial system?  Also, who delivered the Jews from the kingdom of Babylon?  The people-messiah or Cyrus the Persian (through God's planning)?  The people-messiah you are thinking about is merely a way of saying God's chosen people.  

In fact the people-messiah interpretation was likely the cause of the destruction of the second temple and the great dispersion of the Jews thereafter.  The Pharisees and Sadducees believed that those who were obedient to the Torah were God's annointed ones.  History shows that the two schools of thought were the reason why the Romans even occupied Jerusalem in the first place.

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All covenants have been made by man with God and not by God with man. To claim the other way around is only the Jewish way to make the statement holy.

  You do understand that you are denouncing Judaism in this statement, don't you?  Who made the covenant first?  Abraham or God?  And who first intiated the Davidic Covenant?  David or God?

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Jesus has been dead for 2,000 years. The Messiah cannot die. He was part of the Messiah during the 33 years he lived here on earth. That's all.

Then you obviously don't understand the Jewish Scriptures.  Even the early zealot followers believed in a messiah that would die.  And Daniel 9 shows an anointed one that would be rejected by his own people.  Enoch 1 showed a Messiah whose name was hidden from the beginning and who would be divine, Psalms 22 showed the messianic king suffering what would later dramatically match that of Jesus' crucifixion, Isaiah spoke of an anointed one dying for the sins of his people (and thus healing them), which distinguishes the people and the one who suffers for their salvation, and Micah speaks of the second temple being of greater glory than the first temple.  BTW, how do the Jews explain the greater glory of the second temple?  

Also, by the influx of first century BCE messianic writings, it is evident that most Jews back then believed that they were living in the era in which the Messiah would come.

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Right! The Messiah did live long enough to enter the second Temple with the return of the Jewish People from exile in Babylon.

Honestly, I'm not buying your argument.  Right after the exiled people rebuilt their temple, they were kicked out by the Persians for conspiracy and murder within the High Priesthood.  Josephus sheds light on the dark history of those that returned from Babylon.

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Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah, and he never resurrected.  Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy that it was according to his - Paul's gospel - that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected. (2 Tim. 2:8) This happened about 35 years after Jesus had been gone.

I fin it ironic that you are accusing Paul if rewriting history while rewriting history yourself.  Christians, the first and foremost followers of Jesus, have always maintained the anointing of Jesus as Messiah and His resurrection.  You are trying to Judaize Jesus, and you know full well that is impossible.  

If the Jews ever thought Jesus was compatible with their nationalistic religion and superstitious doctrines, they wouldn't have rejected Him, or at least continued to do so.

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The Jews of then never asked the Romans to occupy their land. They made an agreement with the Romans in order to prevent a second war front to make it harder on them with the Greeks. The Romans had become too powerful and the Jews knew it. (I Mac. 12:16-18)

Ben

I'm talking about post-Maccabees.  The Pharisees and Sadducees came AFTER the Jews won indepenence from the Greeks.  I'll take a look at your source when I get a chance though.

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 17 September 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Review your posts. You are too tight and hostile as any Jewish claim is concerned. The Moderator has been closing our posts for disrailment. This is not too far a step to closing threads.

Ben

Tight and hostile, I am simply refruting your claims. It is a known fact, that more Jews are emigrating out of Israel than immigrating to Israel. And that Israel has begun a multinational campaign to attract more Jews to immigrate to Israel. I once posted a video here once where Israel attempted to bribe Iranian Jews to immigrate to Israel and failed.

Israel has always feared being a minority to the Palestinian Arabs which may entail conceding to a one state democracy solution in which Arab Palestinian would gain disproportionate political power being the majority.

[jamesadem24]

Before we get to specific problems with Catholic doctrine, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin. About 44 years after his death, the Catholic institution dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick

[Ben Masada]

Bluefinger, on 17 September 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

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Key phrase:  "this trend is disappearing a we learn better."

Right. Development comes with knowledge.  

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Is it because the Jews have learned better or because the Jewish expectations were not fulfilled and thus the interpretations had to be dramatically revised to be able to maintain a belief in the Messianic prophecies (and thus Jewish tradition)?

Yes, many of the unlearnt are changing their minds because their wrong expectation of an individual Messiah has not been fulfilled. Has your supposed "right" interpretation that Jesus was the Messiah been fulfilled? It has been two thousand years already and his return hasn't been fulfilled. Are you ready to wait another two thousand years? Be my guest.

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I think the latter.  Christians have, from day one, maintained that Jesus the Messiah resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father where He will wait until all nations have become Hos footstool.

Really! How come Apollos was not told about that? He used to speak about Jesus with accuracy and, in the synagogue of Ephesus, when he was invited to deliver the Sabbath sermon, about an hour, he didn't mention even once that Jesus was the Messiah or had resurrected. At the end of the services, Aquila and Priscilla, two Christians converted by Paul, invited Apollos for lunch, brainwashed him all through, and Apollos returned preaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Read Acts 18:24-28.

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So the people deliver themselves?  If so, why was their a sacrificial system?  Also, who delivered the Jews from the kingdom of Babylon?  The people-messiah or Cyrus the Persian (through God's planning)?  The people-messiah you are thinking about is merely a way of saying God's chosen people.

You are right on this one. That the People-Messiah is God's chosen People is throughout the Scriptures: Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim. Moses delivered the People-Messiah from exile in Egypt as a Messianic leader himself. From Babylon, Cyrus only proclaimed that the People-Messiah could return to the Land of Israel if they wanted. That was from the second exile. From this last 3rd one, we had Herzl who inspired the People-Messiah with love for Zion. The bottom line is that they, the People, did it all all the times with the help of God.  

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In fact the people-messiah interpretation was likely the cause of the destruction of the second temple and the great dispersion of the Jews thereafter.  The Pharisees and Sadducees believed that those who were obedient to the Torah were God's annointed ones.  History shows that the two schools of thought were the reason why the Romans even occupied Jerusalem in the first place.

Right again. The Temple was destroyed because the People-Messiah made it too hard for the Romans to govern them. Do you know why? Because the People-Messiah can be governed by the Gentiles in the Diaspora but not in the Land of Israel. That's why they destroyed the Temple. So that the People-Messiah be gone to the Diaspora to be governed by the Gentiles.

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You do understand that you are denouncing Judaism in this statement, don't you?  Who made the covenant first?  Abraham or God?  And who first intiated the Davidic Covenant?  David or God?

No, I am liberating Judaism from superstitions. Abraham made a Covenant with the Lord to worship Him only in a monotheistic way. Samuel, the Prophet initiated the Davidic Covenant when he anointed David as the King chosen by the Lord.

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Then you obviously don't understand the Jewish Scriptures.  Even the early zealot followers believed in a messiah that would die.  And Daniel 9 shows an anointed one that would be rejected by his own people.  Enoch 1 showed a Messiah whose name was hidden from the beginning and who would be divine, Psalms 22 showed the messianic king suffering what would later dramatically match that of Jesus' crucifixion, Isaiah spoke of an anointed one dying for the sins of his people (and thus healing them), which distinguishes the people and the one who suffers for their salvation, and Micah speaks of the second temple being of greater glory than the first temple.  BTW, how do the Jews explain the greater glory of the second temple?

Jewish zealots were unlearned Jewish gangs. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. Read Jer. 31:35-37. Besides, it doesn't even make any sense at all. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation, if the Messiah must die? It is only obvious, that the Messiah is the People of Israel. You don't understand Daniel 9 with reference to the Messiah. If you want to learn what he means with his prophecy about the Messiah, let me know; I have the Jewish interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. Enoch has no book in the Scriptures. Psalm 22 has nothing to do with crucifixion and much less with Jesus. What are you implying, that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans? According to Josephus, the Romans crucified thousands of Jews only in the First Century. The whole book of Isaiah is about Judah and Jerusalem. (Isa. 1:1; 2:1) Nothing at all to do with the NT.
The greater glory of the Second Temple was due to the establishment of the New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one People. (Jer. 31:31; Eze. 37:22)

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Also, by the influx of first century BCE messianic writings, it is evident that most Jews back then believed that they were living in the era in which the Messiah would come.

As you can see, they failed because of the fallacy to believe in an individual Messiah. You too will fail in your futile faith of a coming individual Messiah.

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Honestly, I'm not buying your argument.  Right after the exiled people rebuilt their temple, they were kicked out by the Persians for conspiracy and murder within the High Priesthood.  Josephus sheds light on the dark history of those that returned from Babylon.

Honestly, neither am I even close to by yours. Who said that "Right after the exile the people rebuilt their temple?" They started, were stopped because of the Samaritans, and it took the next king Darius to continue with the construction. Let us say about or close to 100 years. It has been only 60 years since our return to rebuild our 3rd Commonwealth. Give us some more time. Besides, this time we have brought the Diaspora with us, so to speak. You know, because of politics, we still have to remove the Islamic abomination of desolation still on the Temple mount, which they didn't have at the time of Ezra.

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I fin it ironic that you are accusing Paul if rewriting history while rewriting history yourself.  Christians, the first and foremost followers of Jesus, have always maintained the anointing of Jesus as Messiah and His resurrection.  You are trying to Judaize Jesus, and you know full well that is impossible.

Oh! I thought you knew that Jesus was a Jew. I don't need at all to judaize him. I think you have a lot to learn about Jesus. Unless, he was a Greek for you. The anointing of Jesus as Messiah and that he resurrected, I have proved to you that it was according to the gospel of Paul. Read 2 Tim. 2:8. If you don't believe it, you might as well reject the whole NT as wholy contradictory. This is just too embarrassing.  

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If the Jews ever thought Jesus was compatible with their nationalistic religion and superstitious doctrines, they wouldn't have rejected Him, or at least continued to do so.

We did not reject Jesus but what Paul declared about him.

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I'm talking about post-Maccabees.  The Pharisees and Sadducees came AFTER the Jews won indepenence from the Greeks.  I'll take a look at your source when I get a chance though.

Please, do it. BTW, you should always do it. I don't want that my word be taken for it.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 24 September 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 17 September 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Tight and hostile, I am simply refruting your claims. It is a known fact, that more Jews are emigrating out of Israel than immigrating to Israel. And that Israel has begun a multinational campaign to attract more Jews to immigrate to Israel. I once posted a video here once where Israel attempted to bribe Iranian Jews to immigrate to Israel and failed.

Israel has always feared being a minority to the Palestinian Arabs which may entail conceding to a one state democracy solution in which Arab Palestinian would gain disproportionate political power being the majority.

Even, if ever they gain disproportionate political power in the Land of Israel, they will never be able to govern Jews in the Land of Israel. Jews are very easy to be governed by Gentiles in the Diaspora, but NEVER in the Land of Israel. The Samaritans made it very clear in a letter to Persia when the Jews started rebuilding the Temple. (Ezra 4:11-16) The Greeks of Antiochus IV came with all their power and lost the war. The Romans came and lost more legions in the Land of Israel than throughout the Roman Empire put together. If you want to know what terrorism is, let Gentiles try to govern Jews in the Land of Israel.

Ben

[M0TH]

Bluefinger, on 24 August 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Interesting.  It doesn't really unsettle me.

The book of Daniel was likely written slightly before the Maccabean Revolt.  The Jews that wrote obviously thought that the Messiah would deliver the Jewish nation and that the obedient thing for the Jews to do until then would be to suffer with dignity.  It was the author's belief that the Jewish nation should not take up arms.  It didn't happen that way.

And later the Pharisees and Sadducees came about.  They had their Civil War at 100 CE.  Around this time, the book of Susanna, obviously written by a Sadducee, began circulating.   The end result?  The Sadducees won the high priesthood.

A bit later, the Pharisees appealed to Pompey to lead the Romans into Jerusalem, dethrone their king, kick the Sadducees out of the high priesthood, and install the Pharisees.  Pompey desecrated the Most Holy Place, to which the Pharisees said was a curse from God for the toleration of the Sadducees in the high priesthood.  Pompey installed Herod's father as king and placed a heavy tax on the Jewish Nation for that war.  Judea had become a Roman province.  Around this time, the book of Enoch was circulating.  Evidently, the reader anticipated that the Messiah would crush the Romans and liberate the Jewish people.  Instead, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and exiled the Jews in 70 CE.

What happened to the Messianic prophecies?  You know, all the ones that the Jews say Jesus never fulfilled?  Why are they still waiting on the Messiah?  Why has their deliverance been so long overdue?  If anything, the Jews had reason to be unsettled.  Things did not go how they planned.

As a Jew, what is your response to these questions?  I look forward to your answers.

Blue

hi... you probably know this but in the zohar a 700 year old prophecy said that from the new moon in sept 2012 the jewish messiah will return... strange how ancient prophecies seem to be pointing to this year...

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 24 September 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Even, if ever they gain disproportionate political power in the Land of Israel, they will never be able to govern Jews in the Land of Israel. Jews are very easy to be governed by Gentiles in the Diaspora, but NEVER in the Land of Israel. The Samaritans made it very clear in a letter to Persia when the Jews started rebuilding the Temple. (Ezra 4:11-16) The Greeks of Antiochus IV came with all their power and lost the war. The Romans came and lost more legions in the Land of Israel than throughout the Roman Empire put together. If you want to know what terrorism is, let Gentiles try to govern Jews in the Land of Israel.

Ben

You know what I have no real clue what you are rambling on about... just know this... when the Arab Israelis gain demographic majority... Israel can not pretend they dont exist and this means major reformations to the laws of Israel.

[Bluefinger]

M0TH, on 24 September 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

hi... you probably know this but in the zohar a 700 year old prophecy said that from the new moon in sept 2012 the jewish messiah will return... strange how ancient prophecies seem to be pointing to this year...

I was not aware of that.  Do you have a day?

[M0TH]

Bluefinger, on 25 September 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

I was not aware of that.  Do you have a day?

the new moon sept 2012... thats all I know... It will take a while but when you google you'll eventually get the text and original format dates, converted to gregorian.