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World’s first 'gay bible' published

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#46    shadowhive

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:18 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Everyone has a choice.  I don't know why you think otherwise.  Unless you are referring to the effects of environmental surroundings, in which case opening a can of coca-cola is evidence that you have been forced into buying coke products rather than Pepsi, or eating a Big Mac is evidence that you have been manipulated into eating McDonalds instead of Burger King.  You still had a choice, though.

The thing is, though, that in this vulnerable people are being manipulated and exploited. They may still make a 'choice' but at the end of the day they're so pressured by peers, family or preachers that they don't see any other option and that's hardly a choice.

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Curing something implies that being gay is a disease, and that by administering the right treatment they can turn back to heterosexuality.  That kind of thinking is scary, and leads to all manner of torture.  A person who chooses to abstain from homosexual sex in order to serve God does not necessarily mean they no longer have homosexual feelings, it just means that they have chosen not to act on them.  Like a Catholic Priest chooses not to have heterosexual relationships because they believe that is what God wants for them.  Do you feel sorry for Catholic priests?  Do feel that they have been forced and manipulated into choosing a celibate life?  If you do, then at least you're consistent though I'd disagree with you on this as well.

The belief that it's a sin leads to it being called a disease and all that torture. It's painfully and glaringly obvious yet you seem to miss it every time.

Yes, I feel sorry for those priests. Yes, I feel they too have been manipulated by 'what god wants'.

I am not going to support people that toss their humanity in the trash. Part of being human is having relationships and experiencing love, finding happiness. Having a family. Pushing people to deny themselves those experiences is wrong because it's cutting off an important part of your humanity. I'm sorry, but no one should be asked to sacrifice that. And the fact that you're comfortable with doing that, it speaks volumes.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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#47    Paranoid Android

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:38 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

The thing is, though, that in this vulnerable people are being manipulated and exploited. They may still make a 'choice' but at the end of the day they're so pressured by peers, family or preachers that they don't see any other option and that's hardly a choice.
I doubt you'll find statistics to back up this opinion.


View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

The belief that it's a sin leads to it being called a disease and all that torture. It's painfully and glaringly obvious yet you seem to miss it every time.
You're the one who mentioned "curing" homosexuality.  I have never believed that it could be cured.  Thus your comment about why the media doesn't report this is just... well, it's wrong.  You're mistaken, you're misinformed, something, just wrong.  


View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Yes, I feel sorry for those priests. Yes, I feel they too have been manipulated by 'what god wants'.
As I said, at least you're consistent, though I naturally disagree with you.  Whether I agree with celibacy in the priesthood or not, I applaud a person's conviction of faith to give up something like that because of what they believe.


View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

I am not going to support people that toss their humanity in the trash. Part of being human is having relationships and experiencing love, finding happiness. Having a family. Pushing people to deny themselves those experiences is wrong because it's cutting off an important part of your humanity. I'm sorry, but no one should be asked to sacrifice that. And the fact that you're comfortable with doing that, it speaks volumes.
I would not describe it as tossing their humanity in the trash.  What is it to be human if we cannot choose to act in a way that is consistent with our morals and beliefs?  You're not advocating humanity, you're advocating your own brand of morality.  That is all.

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#48    shadowhive

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:52 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

I doubt you'll find statistics to back up this opinion.

And yet it happens, consistantly. Or are you going to deny that.

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You're the one who mentioned "curing" homosexuality.  I have never believed that it could be cured.  Thus your comment about why the media doesn't report this is just... well, it's wrong.  You're mistaken, you're misinformed, something, just wrong.  

Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin and a choice. Now I'm not just saying the 'choice to act' but also the 'choice to be'. When people the choose not to 'act' on their homosexuality you know what christians do? Use it as validation. They go 'ah ha! There's proof of what we believe, this person has chosen not to be gay, therefore all gay people can too!' And so gay rights are set back. Don't believe me? Look around. The world's full of people trying to do just that and use that basis.

The belief that homosexuality is a sin is like believing it's a disease. Both see it as the same thing: a negative. At the end of the day both are pretty much identical and both have the same results.

The only real difference is that those that think it's a sin tend to ignore even the possibility that their belief may cause harm.

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As I said, at least you're consistent, though I naturally disagree with you.  Whether I agree with celibacy in the priesthood or not, I applaud a person's conviction of faith to give up something like that because of what they believe.

Of course you would..

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I would not describe it as tossing their humanity in the trash.  What is it to be human if we cannot choose to act in a way that is consistent with our morals and beliefs?  You're not advocating humanity, you're advocating your own brand of morality.  That is all.

Again, that doesn't surprise me one bit because of your attitude.

Again, there's a limit. Like the previous example. A terrorist killing people is acting in a way 'consistant with their morals and beliefs' does that mean we should let them? No! What about people offering gay 'cures'? They're acting consistantly with their morals and beliefs, should we let them keep practicing it because of that? What about murderers? Rapists? Pedophilies? All act consistantly with their morals and beliefs.

There is a point where citing 'consistantly with our morals and beliefs' becomes inexcusable. All those things above are examples of that.

You're not advocating humanity, you're advocating christianity.

Edited by shadowhive, 06 February 2013 - 04:57 AM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#49    David Henson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:06 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

I think christians really need to grow up an start looking outside the bible and the real world.

I'm not going to argue with that, though I don't see why they couldn't do all three.

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The bible is not always right and it was written at a time when people were woefully uninformed about gay people and their relationships.

That isn't entirely correct. They were surrounded by homosexuality and all sorts of perversion. Pedophilia, bestiality and homosexuality were far more accepted and the norm than today.


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As such chritians need to look at the world now (which isn't the world of the bible) and loo at gay people around them. Are their relationships less loving? Are their families? They should stop treating people lesser simply because the bible says so.

Homosexuals are accepted into the congregation so long as they make the choice on their own. What Christians need to do is stop assuming they were placed in a position of moral police of the world which they are not to be a part of. The world needs to recognize that the Christians have their own regulations within the congregation as well. Separation of Church and State is a real good idea for everyone involved.

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Of course christians will say 'the bible says so so we have to' but to that I say, no you don't. First you don't have to do anything the bible says. You're a person and you decide to do for yourself.

I agree completely.

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Saying you have to do something (or not) because a book says so is simply an attempt to diminish responsibilty or so you have a conveinient excuse to do it.

Your only alternative to following the word of Jehovah God is to follow you and the growing acceptance of the masses? That isn't my choice. Who are you to question my choice in the matter?

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Second christians already don't follow the bible to the letter. Parts have already been discounted and I don't see why those parts (which only mention it in passing and could be out of context to begin with) shouldn't be discounted to.

Well, again, I'm not going to argue that the Bible hasn't been abused, misused, and discounted out of convenience by apostate Christendom, but that is no reason to continue to do so.

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To follow on from that take shellfish. In the bible you're not meant to eat shellfish. Why? At the time of the bible shellfish coudn't be preserved well and it could become rotten very fast meaning you could become sick. Therefore not eating shellfish was sensible. Flahforward to now. We know that happens to shellfish and we've managed to combat it. Now we can preserve shellfish easily and so eat it safely. Because of that you'll find very few christians folowing the not eating shellfish law because it's 'no longer relevent'.

It is also no longer in effect. The Mosaic law only applied to the Jews and only up until shortly after Christ's resurrection.

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#50    Paranoid Android

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:07 AM

I could keep arguing, but I really doubt it will lead anywhere, so instead I'll bid you "adieu", Shadowhive.

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#51    David Henson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:08 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

Wow, not everyone has the courage to step up and say something like that.  If that is the decision you have made, I say good on ya, keep it up.  It's refreshing to see that a person's faith can still mean so much to them that they would give up so much to retain it.  The popular media try and tell us that people like you don't exist, it's good to see the popular media wrong again :tu:

Well, thank you very much, Paranoid Android, I really appreciate your encouragement.

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#52    David Henson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:10 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 February 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Understatement of the day?
The punishment for homosexuality under Shariah law is DEATH. That is a whole different ballgame than the most firebrand christian nutcase teacher can come up with.

Remember when Ahmedinejad visit the US and bragged that there are no homosexuals in Iran? Someone reporter took him up on that, and Ahmedinejads response was "if you know any, give me their addresses". Of course, they would have a short half-life.

So again, bashing the bible is pathetic. You want to take on a real issue? Publish a homo Koran.

It is unfortunate when politics and religion mix. A volatile mixture indeed. The two most destructive powers of man.

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#53    David Henson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:13 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

It's sad that to see you happy that someone denies themselves the possibility of love. Not surprising, just sad and disgusting.

The fact that people like him can be so manipulated by belief is absolutely appaling.Yet what do you do? Praise him. Demanding people give up their chances of love is cruel and twisted.

It's amazing that giving up your humanity is something worthy of praise to you.

I think you are way out of line. My humanity is decided upon by where I put my . . . you are being almost unimaginably quixotic.

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#54    Zaphod222

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:13 AM

View PostDavid Henson, on 06 February 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

It is unfortunate when politics and religion mix. A volatile mixture indeed. The two most destructive powers of man.

Well, in a political religion, they are mixed by definition.

"It is a misfortune to human nature, when religion is given by a conqueror. The Mahometan religion, which speaks only by the sword, acts still upon men with that destructive spirit with which it was founded."
(Montesquieu, “Spirit of the Laws,” 1748)

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#55    David Henson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:16 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 February 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Well, in a political religion, they are mixed by definition.

"It is a misfortune to human nature, when religion is given by a conqueror. The Mahometan religion, which speaks only by the sword, acts still upon men with that destructive spirit with which it was founded."
(Montesquieu, “Spirit of the Laws,” 1748)

I don't believe I've heard that term used before, Christendom would be considered a political religion? I suppose Christendom is more political than Christianity itself is exclusively political religion?

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#56    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostDavid Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

I don't want to seek those websites out because I know that the sentiment isn't correct. As a former practicing homosexual, meaning I am homosexual but no longer practice or engage in homosexual activity due to my beliefs, I can say that I wouldn't be displeased if it were true, but it isn't. It is, I think, a growing attempt to influence the consensus of the uninformed.
What that tells me loud and clear is that you have your mind locked and will not explore other possibilities; in short, you are a waste of time.


#57    Zaphod222

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostDavid Henson, on 06 February 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

I don't believe I've heard that term used before, Christendom would be considered a political religion? I suppose Christendom is more political than Christianity itself is exclusively political religion?

Sorry, I don´t know how you define "Christendom". As for Christianity, it is by nature not a political religion. Consider that it was founded by pacifistic celebate hippie who allowed the authorities to kill him.

That is entirely different kettle of fish than a religion founded by a warlord and ruler, who led 37 wars of conquest, and who is considered to be the "perfect man" to be emulated, with his rule and laws re-created everywhere on earth.

I think the local Christians will be happy to explain to you that Christians have some lofty "spiritual" goals for your soul and some such, but not to establish a Caliphate where the Old Testament serves as the constitution.

So again, trying to relativize these two is misguided.

Edited by Zaphod222, 06 February 2013 - 07:50 AM.

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#58    David Henson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 February 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

What that tells me loud and clear is that you have your mind locked and will not explore other possibilities; in short, you are a waste of time.

You give up too easily. I am open for debate on the subject. Open my mind. However, I'm not willing to go out of my way to investigate further what the new trend of atheists who don't take the Bible seriously would dictate to me through nothing more than what appears to be wishful thinking. I don't care what anyone, including myself even as a homosexual, would like for the Bible to say. I want to know what it actually does say.

Having said that, I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again, I'm sure. At the same time, whether my mind is open or closed on the subject I see an important division between church and state. They shouldn't meddle in the politics or standards of one another unless absolutely necessary. Being no part of the world I don't influence the world regarding homosexuality, abortion, etc. Politically correct or not.

From the atheist perspective that should be enough, and I would only ask the same in return. Is that fair? I think so. Had I lived in ancient Israel I would have a choice of either staying or leaving to engage in homosexuality. As a Bible believer I have the same choice. It is mine, and to each his own. I have no animosity or disrespect for those who choose otherwise.

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#59    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

It's sad that to see you happy that someone denies themselves the possibility of love. Not surprising, just sad and disgusting.

The fact that people like him can be so manipulated by belief is absolutely appaling.Yet what do you do? Praise him. Demanding people give up their chances of love is cruel and twisted.

It's amazing that giving up your humanity is something worthy of praise to you.
yes, i have to say that I find it very sad that anyone would be prepared to surrender a fundamental aspect of themselves in order to comply with ancient regulations that were set out in an ancient document for a completely different time and way of life to the one that people (in the West, at any rate) live today. Very sad indeed.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#60    shadowhive

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I could keep arguing, but I really doubt it will lead anywhere, so instead I'll bid you "adieu", Shadowhive.

i think that's the sad thing, that you turn and run and generally be dismissive instead of facing up to the harm your beliefs actually do.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."




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