274 replies to this topic

[jsowersby]

keninsc, on 01 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Very true, it's a little like being insulted by someone who's opinion you never valued highly to begin with, who cares?.....no, not naming names today.

Ok, when I hear about dermal ridges, I find myself not really understanding the whole concept. Yes, I have seen the stuff about it and I'm a little wondering WFT?. Footprints are found in soil that you have walked over, the soil varies in density, moisture and degrades very quickly into a "dent" in the ground very quickly. It's dirt and dirt isn't conducive to giving you the alleged great detail required to have them in good enough shape that you can then make another casting of the dent to show the ridges.

Oh, so you think it's possible anyway? Ok, then take my challenge to you to create your own......the only condition is you have to do it outside, in dirt.......natural dirt, no faked up special crap to get a god print and then do it in a like manner to a walking animal. Then wait one hour before making a cast that makes them oh so easy to see.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

The dermal ridges they are talking about are just calluses. If someone or something is walking around the forest barefoot for years and years the callus will be thicker. Even if the prints he was examining are fakes how does one explain other sightings and prints from all over the world? Finding prints in the Himalayas for example. No human could leave tracks that high up without leaving other signs of his presence, a tent, snow den, his own tracks etc. A hoaxer is too simplistic an explanation and it does not explain away all the phenomenon, tracks, DNA, centuries old stories from different continents. The only alternative explanation that would explain everything is a secret society of Bigfoot hoaxers that have perpetuated this myth in different areas of the world for hundreds of years. I beleive there are some hoaxers out there but not o nthe scale needed to perpetuate that big of a hoax for that long.

[jsowersby]

Night Walker, on 01 December 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

Faked Bigfoot claims are only "lies" if you take them seriously in the first place. "Stories" are a more accurate term and without the negative connotations of "lies". Everyone tells stories (Do parents lie to their children before bedtime or do they tell them stories?) and Bigfoot stories are an example of folklore-in-action. No more, no less.

The so-called "dermal ridges" found on some Bigfoot tracks are artifical artifacts formed by the casting process:
http://www.csicop.or...igfoot_evidence
http://madsciencewri...ng-bigfoot.html
http://orgoneresearc...eview-material/

Where are the best plaster casts of tracks? The bulk of Professor Meldrum's collection was inherited from well-known hoaxer Paul Freeman and his Meldrum's book also contained photos of Ray Wallace's stomper impressions which he somehow considered to be authentic. Perhaps Meldrum saw "physiologic shifts in the movement of bones" with those too. But that's the thing - if you believe in Bigfoot then you will fall for fakery which confirms your pre-existing beliefs time and time again. Is this not the lesson of Bigfoot? You don't have to be a special effects wizard to fool someone with fake tracks - you just need a basic level of craftiness and to be able to spin a good yarn while people's pre-existing beliefs fill in the details...

Interesting article. The calluses or "dermal ridges" are void then. You're definitely right about people seeing what they want to see or not seeing what they don't want to see. The tracks themselves were not explained away in the article. If they are just stories how has the same story come up in different parts of the world?

[keninsc]

jsowersby, on 10 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

The dermal ridges they are talking about are just calluses. If someone or something is walking around the forest barefoot for years and years the callus will be thicker. Even if the prints he was examining are fakes how does one explain other sightings and prints from all over the world? Finding prints in the Himalayas for example. No human could leave tracks that high up without leaving other signs of his presence, a tent, snow den, his own tracks etc. A hoaxer is too simplistic an explanation and it does not explain away all the phenomenon, tracks, DNA, centuries old stories from different continents. The only alternative explanation that would explain everything is a secret society of Bigfoot hoaxers that have perpetuated this myth in different areas of the world for hundreds of years. I beleive there are some hoaxers out there but not o nthe scale needed to perpetuate that big of a hoax for that long.

I can't really comment on what happens up in the Himalayas since I don't live there or visit there.

However, as far as hoaxers go, hell we have at least two admitted hoaxer who post here and laugh at the reactions they get from the believers. They aren't old enough to have made the ones from the sixties so that means they're second of possibly third generation hoaxers. People love this crap, they get off on it, it's something they enjoy more than sex......or at least just as much as sex. Then there are the outright liars and video fakers for what purpose they do it I can't fathom but they love this crap as much as the hoaxers.

As it happens I'm open to the possibility of Bigfoots being real but until I see a body or read about it from a credible source then there isn't any real proof. I can't say what percentage is hoaxers and what percentage is real but I can't just give someone Carte Blanche and say it's real or not......and nether can you. So there we are.

[jsowersby]

I wonder..
Definition

By Mayo Clinic staff
Munchausen (MOON-chow-zun) syndrome is a serious mental disorder in which someone with a deep need for attention pretends to be sick or gets sick or injured on purpose. People with Munchausen syndrome may make up symptoms, push for risky operations, or try to rig laboratory test results to try to win sympathy and concern.
Munchausen syndrome belongs to a group of conditions, called factitious disorders, that are either made up or self-inflicted. Factitious disorders can be psychological or physical. Munchausen syndrome refers to the most severe and chronic physical form of factitious disorder.
Munchausen syndrome is a mysterious and hard to treat disorder. However, medical help is critical for preventing serious injury and even death caused by the self-harm typical of Munchausen syndrome.


Hoaxers fit the attention seeking aspect of Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy. Hoaxing could be another manifestation of Munchausen by proxy. Instead of making their kids ill for attention they perpetuate hoaxes to get attention. Or maybe I'm reaching lol

[Night Walker]

jsowersby, on 11 December 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Hoaxers fit the attention seeking aspect of Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy. Hoaxing could be another manifestation of Munchausen by proxy. Instead of making their kids ill for attention they perpetuate hoaxes to get attention. Or maybe I'm reaching lol

Perhaps they are more similar to Munchhausen himself:

Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen 11 May 1720 – 22 February 1797) was a German nobleman and a famous recounter of tall tales. In his youth the Baron was sent to serve as a page to Duke Anthony Ulrich II of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and later joined the Russian military. He served until 1750, in particular taking part in two campaigns against the Ottoman Turks. Returning home, Münchhausen is said to have told a number of outrageously farfetched stories about his adventures. He died in his birthplace of Bodenwerder.

Even before his death, Münchhausen's reputation as a storyteller was exaggerated by several writers, giving birth to a fully fictionalized literary character usually called simply Baron Munchausen. The (fictional) Baron's exploits, usually narrated by himself, focus on his impossible achievements as a hunter, warrior, and traveler, including rides on cannonballs and trips to the Moon.

http://en.wikipedia....on_Münchhausen

I heard Munchhausen (like the Comte de Saint Germain) is immortal. He faked his death then journied to the New World to live the life of a elusive recluse. Historical reports of Bigfoot (Hairy Man) began shortly after Munchhausen's arrival...

OMG! Munchhausen is Bigfoot! Bigfoot is Munchhausen!

p.s. I'm actually quite serious about a Maunchausen-Bigfoot connection...

[psyche101]

keninsc, on 07 December 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

That's something I've noticed over the years myself, you usually only see one half set of prints and then only a couple. There have been some exceptions to that but largely a couple from one side or the other is all that's ever found.

Yeah, sorry bout that.........

keninsc, on 07 December 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

However, I do agree with Spectre1979, I'll believe it when I see a corpse or a skeleton......Ideally a live one would be da bomb, but if the darn thing was real how would you capture and transport it to a scientific facility for proper study? Shooting one would be a pain to drag out, hell dragging a deer out after a poor shot is a pain and they are much lighter than a Bigfoot is supposed to be. Out comes the machete and off come the head, hands and feet.

I would be OK with a Pangboche hand, as long as they do not try to feed us some inconclusive BS. If it is a primate, it's a primate, if it is a great ape, it is a great ape. I have no reason to believe any so called hair found to date is even anything more than simply a coconut husk fibre.
It's not a "Inconclusive" or Could be a mammal. That's codswallop. After all these years that is the best they can do?
Even if they found a genuine hair, it would mean a genuine creature that can be tracked down. I can certainly understand why they cannot track down Bigfoot with a carpet fibre. If they had a real one, for sure.

I wonder what ever happened to the hound project? Some Beagle was supposedly trained to seek out Bigfoot? That project has been rather quiet.

Seriously, and people wonder why these ventures struggle for funding!!!!!!

[psyche101]

keninsc, on 08 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Sadly, you may have given some hoaxers an idea, make up a bunch of bones with a Desktop rapid prototype system then lay them out in the woods somewhere and take some pictures to make them look like they've been there a while and of course do some creative scattering.......maybe study a few deer or elk skeletons and sort of use that as a pattern then concocted a supporting story. Something like....."Hey I found these out in the woods while hiking but as I started making some detail pictures the Bigfoot Body Recovery Unit came swooping in and scared me off. I didn't have a gun and I'm all passive and sheit, so I just ran and when I got away I posted these up on my Facebook page."

The real key would be to cover all the bases with a vague specificity that sounds all well and good but when you actually take it apart you haven't actually said a great deal other than, "Hey, I found this. What do you think it is?" Then leave all the speculation for everyone else to cook up, then you're in the clear. No telling how much money something like this could generate for you, could be a book in it, speaking engagements, a TV special or two, and who knows, maybe even a movie deal. It's all BS, but what the hey. The real trick would be to keep it all to yourself and not tell the true truth to anyone. That seems to be the basic undoing in all such things as this, so drink a big glass of ****, take a deep breath, and destroy all the evidence before you go public.

I dunno mate, that did not work with the Skookum cast

[psyche101]

Night Walker, on 11 December 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Perhaps they are more similar to Munchhausen himself:

Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen 11 May 1720 – 22 February 1797) was a German nobleman and a famous recounter of tall tales. In his youth the Baron was sent to serve as a page to Duke Anthony Ulrich II of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and later joined the Russian military. He served until 1750, in particular taking part in two campaigns against the Ottoman Turks. Returning home, Münchhausen is said to have told a number of outrageously farfetched stories about his adventures. He died in his birthplace of Bodenwerder.

Even before his death, Münchhausen's reputation as a storyteller was exaggerated by several writers, giving birth to a fully fictionalized literary character usually called simply Baron Munchausen. The (fictional) Baron's exploits, usually narrated by himself, focus on his impossible achievements as a hunter, warrior, and traveler, including rides on cannonballs and trips to the Moon.

http://en.wikipedia....on_Münchhausen

I heard Munchhausen (like the Comte de Saint Germain) is immortal. He faked his death then journied to the New World to live the life of a elusive recluse. Historical reports of Bigfoot (Hairy Man) began shortly after Munchhausen's arrival...

OMG! Munchhausen is Bigfoot! Bigfoot is Munchhausen!

p.s. I'm actually quite serious about a Maunchausen-Bigfoot connection...

Hrmmzzz they missed that in the movie.......





Funny movie though.

Edited by psyche101, 11 December 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[keninsc]

You're having way too much fun with all this Psyche.

[psyche101]

keninsc, on 11 December 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

You're having way too much fun with all this Psyche.

Who me? I am jus trying to find Bigfoot............

[DieChecker]

psyche101, on 11 December 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

I wonder what ever happened to the hound project? Some Beagle was supposedly trained to seek out Bigfoot? That project has been rather quiet.

Last I remember they were using their own bigfoot hair to train the beagle. But that was like 3 years ago?? If they had elk, or bison or bear hair, then they unfortunately were training their dogs to go after those animals. Maybe they found their "bigfoot trained" dog kept going after bear, or whatever and gave up??

[DieChecker]

Night Walker, on 11 December 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Perhaps they are more similar to Munchhausen himself:

Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen 11 May 1720 – 22 February 1797)

Wait... Hieronymus?? Heironimus... Bob Heironimus = Hieronymus Munchhausen? A connection?? (hee hee hee)

Edited by DieChecker, 11 December 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Stardrive]

psyche101, on 11 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Who me? I am jus trying to find Bigfoot............

On the internet??:  Let's call the new genus Surfingsquatch.....

[Sakari]

Not that Ketchup needs more bad press, she has plenty, I think everyone needs to read the updated link that will be below.....

Just a few quotes from it :

Quote

In 2010, she said:

“….testing has ruled out ape cross and any ancient contributor and that Sasquatch is indeed a modern human with some genetic mutations accounting for their physical appearance.”

Whereas, in 2012, she says:

“…Sasquatch is a hybrid species, the result of males of an unknown hominin species crossing with female Homo sapiens.”

Hmm. Seems like a big difference….what changed?

Back to the press release: someone named Robin Lynne (apparently) posted that linked material (apparently largely written by Dr. Ketchum) on the website of Dr. Ketchum’s “DNA Diagnostics” lab. That website gives the following contact information:

Contact Us:
DNA Diagnostics, Inc. ™
d/b/a Shelterwood Laboratories
PO Box 455
569 Bear Drive
Timpson, TX 75975
Phone (936) 254-2228
Fax (936) 254-9286
email: info@dnadiagnostics.com

The byline of the press release, however, is Dallas, maybe a hundred miles away. In the press release Dr. Ketchum’s location is given as Nacogdoches, TX. This press release gives a contact phone number for Mr/Ms.? Lynne? in a Michigan area code. I’m getting confused. Over the Line, Smokey! couldn’t resist trying the number, and after a few rings, a woman answered with a perfunctory upper Midwest “Hello.” Sure enough, she was “Robin Lynne,” but she really couldn’t give much more information about Dr. Ketchum’s study. However, when I asked where these specimens/supposed Bigfoots were found, Robin said, in a matter-of-fact way, “oh, they’re everywhere.” “Oh, really,” I said, half joking, “have you seen one?” to which she answered, “of course, they come around here all the time and I give them food.” Well, I was taken aback. All this bigfoot mystery could be put to rest once and for all if the world would just beat a path to this woman’s back yard. Why hasn’t this happened? Why is she the “press agent” for Dr. Ketchum? A little web searching indicates that “Robin Lynne” is apparently Robin Lynne Pfeifer, a well-known person in bigfoot circles, who claims to feed and communicate with a number of bigfoots. This person evidently traveled to Russiarecently to attend a conference where it was was stated that scientists were 95% certain of the existence of bigfoot.





All that aside, I wanted to talk to Dr. Ketchum herself, so I called the phone number listed for DNA Diagnostics, in Timpson, only to find that it had been disconnected! According to the State of Texas, DNA Diagnostics Inc is “not in good standing” regarding their franchise tax. Hmmm.
A quick search on Shelterwood Laboratories yields the fact that Ketchum was sued for patent infringement and had to stop doing certain tests. Hmm. According to her co-defendant, Ketchum failed to do her homework, and this resulted in the suit:

April 2009 The 2nd lawsuit was filed and this was the final straw between Dr. Ketchum and InGen. Due to Dr. Ketchum’s failure to properly research certain tests that are allegedly protected by patent, InGen was drawn into another lawsuit which eventually led to the early termination of the contract between InGen and Texas A&M. InGen severed its relationship with Dr. Ketchum which was the best thing that has come from that suit.

Ok, there is a ton more at this link :



http://seesdifferent...rn-human-being/

[Night Walker]

jsowersby, on 10 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Even if the prints he was examining are fakes how does one explain other sightings and prints from all over the world? Finding prints in the Himalayas for example. No human could leave tracks that high up without leaving other signs of his presence, a tent, snow den, his own tracks etc. A hoaxer is too simplistic an explanation and it does not explain away all the phenomenon, tracks, DNA, centuries old stories from different continents. The only alternative explanation that would explain everything is a secret society of Bigfoot hoaxers that have perpetuated this myth in different areas of the world for hundreds of years. I beleive there are some hoaxers out there but not o nthe scale needed to perpetuate that big of a hoax for that long.

Which particular reports, tracks, and DNA are centuries old? These things tend to be made up and exaggerated because the phenomenon is story-based.

Claiming to find footprints is an integral part of the Bigfoot storytelling process because it suggests that there is something out there. Invariably, it is the very people who claim to have found footprints that made those tracks. People are mischevious. Even the expeditions to the remote Himilayas it is necessary to have many local guides and porters. The myths and tales of the region surface in casual conversation and if some tales (like those of wild hairy men who are dangerous) seem to generate better responses then where is the incentive not to plant fake tracks to enhance your stories? Think Tibetans are all super-spiritual and wise and beyond all that? Think again - they are just like everyone else. Recall the Yeti scalp?

jsowersby, on 10 December 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

If they are just stories how has the same story come up in different parts of the world?

Telling stories and making stuff up is what we all do. Because we are all alike or very similar we are thus attracted and repulsed by the same or similar things which makes it way into our stories. Every culture around the globe no matter how advanced or primitive (even the tribes considered to be primitive by the tribes we considered primitive) has some form of bogey-figure, some less than human "other". That Bigfoot (or some Bigfoot-like figure) is claimed to be seen in every part of the world supports the fictional/imaginary theories of Bigfoot much better than if it was a real unidentified flesh-and-blood species...

DieChecker, on 11 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Wait... Hieronymus?? Heironimus... Bob Heironimus = Hieronymus Munchhausen? A connection?? (hee hee hee)

OMG! Coincidence? I think not! Its all coming together nicely...

Edited by Night Walker, 12 December 2012 - 01:05 AM.