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Doggerland


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#736    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 September 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

Thanks, Swede.

NONE of those dates are close or even centuries apart, jeesh.

I guess no one knows what this volcano did around 6100 BC.

I think this is a case, much like the Golan Heights eruption case in another thread you and I were part of, where the claim was just laid hanging in thin air with no further supporting evidence. Sad to say.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#737    Abramelin

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 10:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 13 September 2011 - 08:51 PM, said:

I think this is a case, much like the Golan Heights eruption case in another thread you and I were part of, where the claim was just laid hanging in thin air with no further supporting evidence. Sad to say.

cormac

Heh, well, I wasn't claiming anything, I am just looking for a possible cause.

Btw, I meant to say to Swede that all the ancient Holocene eruptions (the ones erupting close to 6100 BC) took place on the other side of the globe, and that those erupting in/around the Atlantic did so at a totally different time from 6100 BC.

The Storegga Slide was discovered by accident by a Norse oil company. The layer is - partly - still there, but they said there is no danger for another slide, not anywhere soon that is (probably because the layer needs many more thousands of years to build up to its former size).

The trigger for the slide could have been nothing more than a small earthquake caused by post-glacial isostatic rebound/adjustment.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 September 2011 - 10:27 AM.


#738    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 11:11 AM

Quote

Heh, well, I wasn't claiming anything, I am just looking for a possible cause.

I didn't mean it was your claim, just that there was a claim with no follow through in supporting evidence.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#739    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 02:02 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 August 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Of course I know I am treading on extremely thin ice here, but still I'd like to add the next:

CE′RBERUS (Kerberos), the many-headed dog that guarded the entrance of Hades, is mentioned as early as the Homeric poems, but simply as "the dog," and without the name of Cerberus. (Il. viii. 368, Od. xi. 623.) Hesiod, who is the first that gives his name and origin, calls him (Theog. 311) fifty-headed and a son of Typhaon and Echidna. Later writers describe him as a monster with only three heads, with the tail of a serpent and a mane consisting of the heads of various snakes. (Apollod. ii. 5. § 12; Eurip. Here. fur. 24, 611; Virg. Aen. vi. 417; Ov. Met. iv. 449.) Some poets again call him many-headed or hundred-headed. (Horat. Carm. ii. 13. 34; Tzetz. ad Lycoph. 678; Senec. Here. fur. 784.) The place where Cerberus kept watch was according to some at the mouth of the Acheron, and according to others at the gates of Hades, into which he admitted the shades, but never let them out again.

http://www.theoi.com...onKerberos.html


The name "Cerberus" is a Latinised version of the Greek Kerberos, which may be related to the Sanskrit word सर्वरा "sarvarā", used as an epithet of one of the dogs of Yama, from a Proto-Indo-European word *ḱerberos, meaning "spotted"[5] (This etymology suffers from the fact that it includes a reconstructed *b, which is extremely rare in Proto-Indo-European. Yet according to Pokorny it is well distributed, with additional apparent cognates in Slavic, British and Lithuanian).[6] The use of a dog is uncertain,[7][8] although mythologists have speculated that the association was first made in the city of Trikarenos in Phliasia.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus


Is there a similar 'hellhound' in the North Sea area?

It appears so:

In Norse mythology, Garmr or Garm (Old Norse "rag"[1]) is a dog associated with Ragnarök, and described as a blood-stained watchdog that guarded Hel's gate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmr

HERE the etymology of both these 'hellhounds' are being discussed (click on "Hounds of Hell/Hellhounds" in the index), and the conclusion of the writer is that both names have to do with the sound dogs make in general, and not with these dogs being spotted/blood-stained.


Anyway, I thought Kerber-os and Garmr sound quite similar, enough to think that one may have been a borrowing (either from Greek into a Nordic language, or the other way round, from some Nordic language into Greek - or both are derived from a single PIE source)

What I also thought interesting is that Kerberos is being described, not only as garding the mouth of the Acheron (= delta formed by the Rhine??), but also as having 3 or more heads (is branches of the Rhine forming the delta??) and the tail of a snake (the Rhine itself??).

Close to the mouth of the Rhine is the mouth of the Schelde with it's ancient sea goddess Nehalennia on the (former) island of Walcheren, a goddess always accompanied with a - rather friendly - dog (and a ship and a basket with apples).


+++++

EDIT:

'dogs of the sea' = North Sea >> Albinovanus Pedo

A Companion to Greek and Roman Historiography - by John Marincola

http://books.google....us Pedo&f=false




Albinovanus Pedo

? Roman poet
flourished 1st century AD

      Roman poet who wrote a Theseid, referred to by his friend the poet Ovid (Epistles from Pontus); epigrams that are commended by the Latin poet Martial; and an epic poem on the military exploits of the Roman general Germanicus Caesar, the emperor Tiberius' adopted son, under whom Pedo probably served. This epic may have been used as a source by the Roman historian Tacitus. All that remains of Pedo's works is a fragment, preserved in the Suasoriae of Seneca the Elder, that describes in a highly melodramatic and rhetorical style the voyage of Germanicus (AD 16) through the Ems River to the Northern Ocean (i.e., the North Sea).


http://universalium....lbinovanus_Pedo


==

Btw, all this is Puzzler's fault, lol !!




.
Moi?!

lol I was looking for the link that I just showed Knul you had here, see OLB thread and kept reading this thread and read this post and I liked it alot, interesting stuff.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#740    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:04 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 13 October 2011 - 02:02 AM, said:

Moi?!

lol I was looking for the link that I just showed Knul you had here, see OLB thread and kept reading this thread and read this post and I liked it alot, interesting stuff.

Ah yes, I just read Knul asking me about that German book (about the OLB) from which I quoted about the "White Island" (plus those large b/w images with German text).

Page 48: http://www.unexplain...c=179840&st=705

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2011 - 10:07 AM.


#741    Abramelin

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 10:38 AM

Next try (...sigh...)


.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 October 2011 - 10:41 AM.


#742    Abramelin

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 10:42 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 March 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

On one of the first pages of this thread I said I would already be happy if they found some megalithic structures on the bottom of the present North Sea, and that I was not awaiting an announcement on CNN that they found a couple of pyramids down there..

The problem with the European megalithic structures is that they started building these things from around 4500 BC and onwards, and that is a couple of thousand years after the last part of Doggerland - the Dogger(s) bank - was flushed down the drain by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide off the coast of Noway.

But then I remembered that on one of my many Google searches for this topic I found a structure in Denmark - a tumulus? - that dated from 6000 BC, and we now know that that was just a 100 years after Doggerland sank beneath the waves, and could have been built by refugees from Doggerland. That was months ago, and I also remember that when I tried to retrieve that page/image, I failed to find it again.

So, a few days ago I made another attempt to find that structure in Denmark, but ended up with a link to site from a guy who tried to prove that both Homer's Iliad and Plato's Atlantis originated/took place in/around the North Sea.

Well, I guess many of you know that some have tried to prove that Atlantis was in the Baltic (Vinci) or in Ireland/Doggers Bank (Ulf Erlingsson) or around/on Helgoland (Spanuth) or that the Iliad took place in England/North Sea (Iman Wilkins and several others), and you all know that I tried to stay away from "Atlantis" as much as possible.

OK, but with that Google search, I hit upon this site ( http://www.nwepexplo.../megaliths.html ) by a "Guy Gervis", who situated Homer's Iliad and Plato's Atlantis in and around the North Sea; he even has a name for Doggerland:  "Lacuna" (which means nothing more or less than 'gap', or 'hole'). Well, he admitted to have been inspired by the ones I mentioned, but he also wrote about a few other people I never heard of, and so I Googled again.

One of the people he mentioned was Robert Graves, and he said that this philosopher/poet assumed that the Dogger Bank was the place of Atlantis (the City). Hmmm... I couldn't find anything about Graves and his ideas about Atlantis being situated in the North Sea ( I do have his "The White Goddess", but I didn't check it for any mentioning of the Atlantis myth. I will, believe me...).

Then there's this another name that Gervis talked about, Jean Deruelle, and his book "De la préhistoire à l'Atlantide des megaliths'.

That got me a bit further.......

I found a PFD file, in French, that had sort of a summary of Deruelle's theory:

http://artslivres.co...icle.php?ld=535, "13 HIS Atlantide (2009_12_10) trampoline".

And this is what I made of it (my excuses for the translation, I had to use what I remember of my highschool French lessons and assisted by Google translation)

Translation:

=

I call "trampoline" a file that is abundant, opens up new avenues, and proceeds by jumps around a main topic.

1. I put on the site the full BT2 (file of?) Atlantis.
It is a working document without illustrations or diagrams. It takes 15 pages in A4, 30 pages A5. The pdf file is adjusted to 90 [degrees] to allow playback. The chapters and paragraphs are numbered to enable reflection in depth. I included the next paragraphs:

- # 44 Solon: his inquiry, his projects,
- # 61 The meeting of two mysteries,
- # 62 Back on the "districts"
- # 63 Orychalcum may have been amber
- # 64 Ulysses, an unexpected witness.


2. Solon: his inquiry, projects (# 44).
Pierre Vidal-Naquet, historian, or Luc Brisson, translator of Plato, have refused to engage on the ground moving to the genesis of Atlantis. It is generally said that "while Plato invented. "I prefer to say, Plato did not invent anything but transformed". I left the idea that Solon had actually collected information from the Peoples of the North calls for convenience Atlantis. Solon, the great Athenian legislation was also a big seller (he was exporting olives) and a great traveler (he knew the Mediterranean). Curious about everything he had, I think, included information about traders who sold amber from the north. He would have amassed an impressive documentation. In his old age, according to testimonies, he was happy to present the point they said he rambled. I think Plato has received this documentation, it was pruned to reconstruct and make the text we know.


--

3. Megaliths (# 61) and "districts" (# 62)
I have retained as valid the assumptions made by Jean Deruelle (1915 - 2001), Ecole Polytechnique and a former director of Coal Mines of Lorraine. His fundamental work is "Atlantis megaliths" (1999 ed. France-Empire). There was little response despite the strength of its assumptions.We read with interest an interview summarizing his work in
http://artslivres.co...icle.php?Id=535 (ME: ..which appears to be gone).
The megalithic civilization lasts - 5.000 to - 2.500. Peaceful and very organized, they built these huge monuments we know that some infrastructure. Archaeological traces of a social organization districts for their dimensions coincide with the "districts" described by Plato.


4. The Nordics driven by the cold. I summarized the data provided by Deruelle.
Towards -9000  starts communal life in Palestine (Jericho), then -6500 the extraordinary urban civilization in Asia Minor (Catal-Hoyuk). But around - 5000 they have disappeared. Subsequently, in high contrast, the European model is still present in the east and west. To the east, since the invention of the metallurgy of copper to -5000, Danube Valley is devastated for 3,000 years by successive migrations and violence: Nordics (-4,600), the Battle Axe Peoples (??) (-3,600), "Indo-Europeans "(-2,600), the Sea Peoples(-1,300).
A peaceful Western megalithic civilization develops, from -5000, the North Sea, Malta and well beyond via the Atlantic coast. It would have gradually disappeared after -2500. In -2300, driven by cold, the Nordics go down south. From -2200 till - 1800 a hot restore prosperity to Central Europe. What remained of the empire of the megaliths is won by violence but maintains its  mastery of the seas in the Mediterranean. From -1.800 to -1.500 a terrible cold spell forces the Nordics to go south again. The last attack had been coordinated by the survivors of the megalithic empire, the "Sea Peoples". The end of "Timeus" by Plato (25b) describes a massive offensive on the entire Middle East. It's almost word for word a copy of the inscriptions of the temple of Medinet Habu about the "Sea Peoples", which, towards -1.200, ravaged Greece,the Hittite Empire and tried to take over Egypt by both Libya and the Gaza Strip. The Egyptian Ramesses III stopped them with much difficulty. The accounts of his prisoners would be transmitted, eight hundred years later, to Solon by Egyptian priests. The Vikings (eighth - twelfth century), distant descendants of the Peoples of the Sea, will also have both sailors, merchants and warriors.


5. A brilliant civilization threatened by water.
Many convergences can assimilate the Orichalcum (# 63) amber, product abundant and renowned for its beauty. It was in great demand and its export contributed greatwealth to the peoples of the Baltic. The climate, while almost tropical, also allowed a prosperous agriculture. At one time it was almost tropical.
  
Ulysses (# 64) is shipwrecked on a realm protected by dikes. It must defend itself against the tides (which do not exist in the Mediterranean). Ulysses discovers a brilliant civilization. Homer said it disappeared after a cataclysm that destroyed its banks. All this indicated a kingdom in the North Sea. It could have been the focal point of the confederation of the Ten Western Kingdoms described by Plato. This confederation would have broken up after -2500. The sophisticated dikes of the Netherlands would be the worthy successor of structures described by Plato and Homer. Concerns about global warming climate and rising sea levels in northern Europe cause the same fear of disasters.


6. Dogger Bank.
Jean Deruelle thinks, for many reasons, that the Dogger Bank in the North Sea was the strategic center of a confederation. This coincides with the words of Solon - Plato. The Dogger Bank is situated 350 km from the Netherlands, is a submarine plateau of 300 x 100 km on the floor of the North Sea, and very dangerous in case of storm. Installed on the Dogger Bank, whereas low emerge, the kingdom has built its dams. After -7000 and this for 4,000 years. In -3000 the situation of the dikes seem to correspond broadly with what is said by Plato and Homer. The Great Plains of the kingdom was located 10 or 20 feet below the level of the sea where huge dikes protected it in a continual struggle. Towards -2600 climatic conditions cause a dramatic breaking of the dikes of the Great Plain. It´s inhabitants must flee. Only the capital remains above water. Towards -1800 the capital disappears, a victim of a last rise in sea level. Survivors join the Nordics and get organized to try to colonize the Mediterranean. Egyptians capture them. That would be the general pattern of this adventure.


7. The expedition proposed the following site, unfortunately inactive, provides analysis and detailed maps http://doggerbank.org/prehistoire.html
A Project Group had considered surveys on the Dogger Bank. It sought for several years for a support committee that would guide and fund the fieldwork. All information is visible on the specified site. But nothing has advanced in this project which could start a great period in European archeology.


Roger

=


Some pics I found on the web from Derualle's book:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


For Alewyn's convenience (see "Oera Linda Book" thread), I bumped this post about Deruelle's theory.

Btw: this is the correct link to the PDF:

http://pagesperso-or..._trampoline.pdf

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 October 2011 - 10:46 AM.


#743    Paracelse

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 11:04 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 October 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

For Alewyn's convenience (see "Oera Linda Book" thread), I bumped this post about Deruelle's theory.

Btw: this is the correct link to the PDF:

http://pagesperso-or..._trampoline.pdf

.

Next time you need help with translations contact me .. I just charge 250 000 euros a word payable via paypal :P Interesting article though.. reading the French paper you linked.

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It's time for a sixth republic.

#744    Abramelin

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 11:11 AM

View PostParacelse, on 17 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Next time you need help with translations contact me .. I just charge 250 000 euros a word payable via paypal :P Interesting article though.. reading the French paper you linked.

Heh, I sort of hoped - I saw you were present - you would click on this thread.

Please correct any mistakes I made with the translation; I used Google Translator along with what I remembered from highschool, lol.


#745    Paracelse

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 02:17 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 October 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

Heh, I sort of hoped - I saw you were present - you would click on this thread.

Please correct any mistakes I made with the translation; I used Google Translator along with what I remembered from highschool, lol.
Your translation is fairly accurate, I'm surprise google translator did (with prolly lots of your help) decent job.  I was ready to buy the Deruelle book until I saw the price of the French version 38 euros on Amazon and 28 on abebooks.fr.. adding it to my wish list maybe some white bearded big belly dude will drop it off.

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République No.6
It's time for a sixth republic.

#746    Abramelin

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 02:27 PM

View PostParacelse, on 17 October 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Your translation is fairly accurate, I'm surprise google translator did (with prolly lots of your help) decent job.  I was ready to buy the Deruelle book until I saw the price of the French version 38 euros on Amazon and 28 on abebooks.fr.. adding it to my wish list maybe some white bearded big belly dude will drop it off.

If you want to know more about Deruelle and his theory, then read this interview (2001):

http://artslivres.co...icle.php?Id=535

http://translate.goo...icle.php?Id=535

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 October 2011 - 02:39 PM.


#747    Paracelse

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:47 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 October 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

If you want to know more about Deruelle and his theory, then read this interview (2001):

http://artslivres.co...icle.php?Id=535

http://translate.goo...icle.php?Id=535

.
you just gave me the taste to buy the book :P very interesting read.

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither Benjamin Franklin
République No.6
It's time for a sixth republic.

#748    Abramelin

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:38 PM

View PostParacelse, on 18 October 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

you just gave me the taste to buy the book :P very interesting read.

I forgot to ask you Paracelse: IF you aleady bought the book (or are going to buy it), it would love to read here about the 'juicy bits' in connection with Doggerland from that book.

Not a word-for-word, literal translation of course.


#749    Abramelin

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:53 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 October 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

I forgot to ask you Paracelse: IF you aleady bought the book (or are going to buy it), it would love to read here about the 'juicy bits' in connection with Doggerland from that book.

Not a word-for-word, literal translation of course.

Just a little extra I was able to dig up:


(...)

Deruelle's theory was simple but new to me : Atlanteans would have been the Megalithic (from the Greek 'huge stone') people from Western Europe - people belonging to a badly-known civilisation. Most Europeans have at least once seen or heard about the gigantic stones they once erected - Stonehenge and Avebury in England being famous examples, but hundreds of thousands of cromlechs and standing stones can be found throughout Europe and beyond. This civilisation thrived for nearly 4 millennia, roughly from 4800 BC to 1200 BC. Basing his work on those of a German author from the 1950's - Jürgen Spanüth, who claimed Atlantis was located in the North Sea - Deruelle spent much of his retirement time gathering clues supporting his thesis of a Northern Atlantis.

Among other things he noticed that right in the middle of the North Sea was a huge, 300 km-long submerged island now called the Dogger Bank. Remarkably, Deruelle's calculations showed him that the global rise of oceans level following the last Ice Age, combined with the implacable sinking of the undersea soil, implied that the Dogger Bank had been a real island during the Megalithic period! According to Deruelle the Megalithic people, who were skilful navigators, probably had their capital city on this island and subsequently extended their influence to Western Europe and the Mediterranean. Last but not least, this people having lived before the great Sumerian and Egyptian civilisations, it was likely to have helped these first great civilisations rise in the first place.

Right after the fascinating reading of this book I wrote a letter to Deruelle. Three weeks later, I received a reply. In a highly emotional four-page letter Jean Deruelle, delighted that a younger mind showed an interest in a theory that had unfortunately been mainly overlooked by scholars and general public altogether, was giving me a sort of assignment: "How can I express the pleasure that your letter dated 11 March brought in me! What a rejuvenating, enthusing experience - exactly what I need!... I am 86 and it's getting more and more difficult for me to walk, read and walk, so I can only hope that young forces will accept to take over from me. Would you fancy such an adventure?... In any case, be sure, dear Sir, that you brought me great happiness and the wish to continue on the way as long as I can."

Honoured by the old man's request, I decided to accept the adventure. I started to do research work on ancient civilisations, which I found very exciting, and exchanged a few letters with Jean Deruelle. Unfortunately, a few months later, I was to learn from his wife about the demise of this remarkable man. But I was no longer alone in this quest for humanity's past: an Englishman, Alan Butler, had revealed to me information that was to change my life drastically.


http://spcov.free.fr...n/atlandide.php


I hope if anything that you could show us those calculations by Deruelle; as far as is known now, Dogger Island (the last remnant of Doggerland after it got hit by the tsunami) finally submerged before the Megalithic era even started.


#750    Abramelin

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:37 PM

Here another nice article about Doggerland:

Doggerland and Cantre’r Gwaelod – The Way We Were,
But Who Were We and Who Are We Now?


http://fivetrilliont...-age-and-celts/





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