101 replies to this topic

[RavenHawk]

It seems that some people get their noses bent out of shape when I use the term Socialism/Socialist.  I have spent many threads trying to explain how I use the term that even a five year old should be able to understand.  My guess is that those people haven’t fully read everything I’ve said or are such an intellect that is far beyond what I have to say.  The whole genre is a complex mess and I simplify it and I guess it is that simplification that blows people’s minds because it is so simplistic.  The simplicity is beautiful and legitimately black and white.  It’s not rocket science.

All you have is basically Oligarchy or Republic; nothing else.  Oligarchy is the rule of one or of the few, or even by the many.  Republic is the rule of Law, not subject to human interpretation (even though there are times when that is appropriate).  Obamacare is a prime example of that.  That’s why Pelosi said it had to be voted on before we could see what’s in it.  And now, we are seeing what is in it because going from law to regulation requires human interpretation and that interpretation is nowhere near what the bill originally was.  Personally, my deductible has gone up 400% and my out of pocket limit is so astronomical that it just doesn’t pay to be healthy.  It is cheaper to take the penalty tax.  Now I will refer back to Obamacare throughout this post, but because it is the best example of what is going wrong with this country, so you should just get use to it.

I use Socialism liberally (pardon the pun), when Oligarchy is the proper term.  I find that Socialism is appropriate in today’s world.  There are many flavors of Oligarchy, which include Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, Marxism, Fascism, Communism, Nazism, Totalitarianism, Monarchy, Kings, Princes, Potentates, Dictators, and even Democracy.  The list is almost endless.  We could sit here and discuss the differences in each and every one of them and you would be missing the point.  For it isn’t what makes them different, it is what makes them all the same.

All these forms imply government infringement on the lives of the subjects to some degree or another.  And the tendency of these is that over time, even the most benevolent forms will become more authoritarian.  Socialist Democracy is the most benevolent and Totalitarianism is the most malevolent.  And all Socialist Democracies will approach the Totalitarian as it takes more power from the people.  Monarchies gave way to Socialist Democracies.  Nothing really changed, just the source of power.  People were still not free as the government had final say over the Rights of the People just as the King did.

You won’t find the word Democracy in the Constitution or even in the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights.  Our Founding Fathers knew the pit falls of Democracies.  The following are some of their thoughts:

“…democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property. And have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”
James Madison  Essay #10, Federalist Papers

“We are a Republican Government, real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy.”
Alexander Hamilton

“Democracy never lasts long.  It soon exhausts and murders itself.”
Samuel Adams

Yes, Democracy plays an integral part in our form of government, but it is not the central principle of it.  Even though “Socialism” by name was not known then, that is what the Founding Fathers were talking about.  Democracy can and does morph into Socialism or Oligarchy or whatever you want to call it.  A rose by any other name…  Our Constitution was the only statement of purpose that didn’t grant Rights by the government to the people but guaranteed protection of Inalienable Rights of the people by the government.  It is truly the only government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

President Obama has probably done the most (and he’s not finished) in usurping that guarantee and half of the people are blind and the other half are standing idly by as this guarantee is being stripped from us.  And don’t say it isn’t, it is so blatantly obvious.  How Obamacare became law is the archetype of how we lost our liberty.  Our democracy has become the “Extremes of Democracy” as Hamilton said.  How Obamacare was crammed down how throats and how the Electoral College has been manipulated is what Hamilton was meaning by extreme.  This is how the Founding Fathers knew what Socialism was.

The following was offered by spartan max2 in another thread.  He paraphrases a well known and highly feared (by our government) segment of one of our most precious documents:

"In a free country, governments derive their power from the consent of the governed. When the people have very clearly withdrawn their consent for a law, the discussion should be over. If the Feds refuse to accept that and continue to run roughshod over the people, at what point do we acknowledge that that is not freedom anymore? At what point should the people dissolve the political bands which have connected them with an increasingly tyrannical and oppressive federal government? And if people or states are not free to leave the United States as a last resort, can they really think of themselves as free?"

He never made it clear but he really didn’t have to as this clearly talks about Obamacare and Obama’s Socialist agenda.  Obama is not Peter the Great and we are not the Russians being dragged, kicking and screaming into the modern age.  Socialism is the dinosaur; for even if this Country falls to Socialism, the light of freedom will not be extinguished.  It will just reemerge someplace else.  Perhaps we are seeing it in of-all-places, Egypt??  Perhaps the Muslim Spring is the reform in Islam that is needed and that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood do not represent it?  It is still way too early to be sure.

Oligarchy is the institution of slavery.  It can be malevolent or benevolent.  Malevolent is obviously Authoritarian, Totalitarianism, Police State, etc.  The prime example is Communism and the state of East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall.  People under this rule were definitely not free, but property of the state.  “Batteries” for the machine.  Benevolent in that it begins to nanny the people and give them everything they need.  President Gerald Ford said (re-quoted by President Ronald Reagan): "A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have”.  We see this in Europe.  Europeans have become too complacent because they get a regular fix of dole.  And you see what happens when austerity pops up into the equation.

But what happens when the tap shuts off?  In our national parks, you’ll see signs that simply say “Please, don’t feed the animals.”  So the obvious question should be “why?”  If the animals get too use to taking food from the visitors then when times are hard, they won’t be able to fend for themselves.  The animals will die off because they are waiting for food from humans.  They’ve lost the ability to hunt and scavenge.  And like animals, humans are creatures that do things for themselves.  That is where people have dignity and self reliance.  Without this, man does not thrive.  He just exists, or becomes a kept person (the humans in “Wall-E”).  This is enslavement, a gilded cage.

All governments are transient.  They can never do their people justice.  A government should never put itself into a position to take from the people.  The government doesn’t give the people anything, it can only take.  Our Constitution was established to prevent the government from taking from the people.  And this government is in danger of going off the cliff with welfare and Entitlements that it cannot sustain.

I prefer to do things myself.  Now, from time to time, I may need help and I would expect the government to be there to *help* out a little and I can then pay-it-forward later on, but what I do not need is cradle to grave care.  This is not the kind of government the Founding Fathers gave us.  And We the People need to insure that what they gave us stays.  We need to gain control now before we can’t turn back.  The Socialist Ruling Elite is doing its best to divide and conquer, but people must understand that the Constitution is not only for old, white, rich guys.

Like what Mary Matthews (Katharine Hepburn) in “State of the Union” said: “You politicians have stayed professionals only because the voters have remained amateurs.”  The best solution to an out of control government is an educated and informed voter.  If we just simply vote out every incumbent for the next few cycles, Socialism will die out and we will have our nation back.  But if we don’t, then we will see riots in the streets like we have seen elsewhere.  There is a balance in nature and as slavery/Socialism is on the move, Freedom is struggling to keep that balance.

[joc]

Here is all anyone needs to know about Socialism...it is a one way street that ends in Totalitarianism.  ...and no, I didn't read more than the first sentence of your very wordy post.  Why would I?  All one needs to know is that Socialism leads to Totalitarianism.

[RavenHawk]

joc, on 26 November 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

All one needs to know is that Socialism leads to Totalitarianism.

And I agree with you, but that isn’t good enough for some.  So I’ve tried to cull everything I’d said to support that statement in one post.  I was finding that I was repeating myself just too many times or others were saying that they just didn’t understand.

[F3SS]

Raven, I know you're already blue in the face about this subject but do you really expect any relief from your detractors? I've seen you make all these points before to no avail. It's just how it is but if it helps I think you make a lot of sense and see the deeper meanings and truths about where history has already been and where we seem likely to end up one day. Let them detract and ridicule, who cares? They ain't gonna change. I say keep making your points and stop letting them make you explain yourself. The ones who get you don't need explaining to and the ones who don't, well they never will.

[synchronomy]

I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.
They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.
Our taxes pay for healthcare.  Big deal.
In Canada and the USA...
Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.
They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.
...and a raft load of other things.  Some wasteful, some useful.
That's the way it is.

[spartan max2]

i just noticed i was mentioned in this thread. I feel important lol

[White Unicorn]

synchronomy, on 27 November 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.
They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.
Our taxes pay for healthcare.  Big deal.
In Canada and the USA...
Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.
They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.
...and a raft load of other things.  Some wasteful, some useful.
That's the way it is.

I like Canadian "socialism"  I remember being on vacation years ago and seeing Health tax on everything just like you see state sales tax in the states. I thought, what a wonderful idea because everyone, including tourists, drug dealers or other criminals that normally get out of taxes pay their share to the Canadians' benefit!  Here if your lucky enough to have a job you pay outrageous insurance premiums that don't cover things anyway then if you have a big bill they pay no more and you have a preexisting and can't get any care at all...unless you don't work and go on medicaid after selling everything you own.  Besides job loss medical bills are the main reason for bad credit.  I was thrilled when Obama tried to do something about it but even now the big insurances are figuring in loop holes not to pay in tricky ways.  That's when it starts to make sense that some things should not be privatized such as insurance.  If the Congress had the same pension and insurance as regular voters they would correct it but they just keep fighting with all the propaganda and taking corporate lobbyist money.

Edited by White Unicorn, 27 November 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[ninjadude]

It's been pointed out ad naseum, you don't get to make up your own terms.

[Cradle of Fish]

You're obviously quite young, RavenHawk

[Babe Ruth]

Raven

It seems you have a rather romantic and naive view of the efficacy of the ballot box.  "Voting them out" is pretty much a pipe dream.

The system is rigged in the first place, by the rotation of terms of congresscritters, but even more importantly is that We The Sheeple cannot agree on which congresscritters is good, and which is bad.

Socialism or Fascism, which do we have today?

[Startraveler]

I assume the general consensus among those who "get their noses bent out of shape" is that those who go on screeds against the "socialism agenda" that is the cause of all their problems (right down to their insurance deductible!) have a somewhat paranoid delusional understanding of how government works and the policy agenda that's driving it.

This thread does nothing to change that impression.

[keithisco]

Just one point, because the OP has lost all sense of proportion...

Who drove through the Patriot Act - the very same act that deprives US Citizens of the right to demand Habeaus Corpus???? (Clue: GWB - Dubya and you all just rolled over in ecstacy to accept it    - idiots)

You now have fewer "rights" than ANY EU Nation..."There's one born every minute"

Edited by keithisco, 27 November 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[keithisco]

RavenHawk, on 26 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

And I agree with you, but that isn't good enough for some. So I've tried to cull everything I'd said to support that statement in one post.  I was finding that I was repeating myself just too many times or others were saying that they just didn't understand.

In Bold: so you basically left out any contrary argument to your own to "prove" your point... naive on this Forum - you will be found out!!

[OverSword]

synchronomy, on 27 November 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.
They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.
Our taxes pay for healthcare.  Big deal.
In Canada and the USA...
Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.
They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.
...and a raft load of other things.  Some wasteful, some useful.
That's the way it is.

Socialism is the direction that those in charge desire us to go, as long as it only applies to the poorest 99%.  That's why you in Canada are hearing you are socialists on your own broadcasts.  The very young take anything the talking picture box tells them as the unconditional truth.  The talking picture box is labeling you as socialists because the young people will grow up believing it making the transition easier as they apply it.  Very soon you will see many pro socialists progams being touted via government backed funding on American television too.  Don't fight it, just go down to the capital , ask for your hammer and sickle and start working for the benefit of those who are too lazy and too stupid to do anything for themselves.  And don't forget to smile and sy please and thank you.  Also, as you get older don't be a burden on the healthcare system that's there for the majority of poeple and kill yourself if you start to to feel like you can work no longer.  It's the new American way!

[RavenHawk]

-Mr_Fess-, on 26 November 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Raven, I know you're already blue in the face about this subject but do you really expect any relief from your detractors? I've seen you make all these points before to no avail. It's just how it is but if it helps I think you make a lot of sense and see the deeper meanings and truths about where history has already been and where we seem likely to end up one day. Let them detract and ridicule, who cares? They ain't gonna change. I say keep making your points and stop letting them make you explain yourself. The ones who get you don't need explaining to and the ones who don't, well they never will.

I admit that I get frustrated with the stupidity of others but I really don’t do it for them.  It’s like the old saying that the difference between stupidity and ignorance is that ignorance can be fixed.  For sure, they are the impetus for me to do this, I do this for myself.  To collect and focus my thoughts into something more coherent than just a passing comment in one post or another.  I was watching some program last night on the Science Channel and it stated that without the dinosaur, Man wouldn’t be here today.  So I should be thankful for my detractors.  Because without them, my seeking of deeper meanings and truths would not be as strong.  You’re right in that they ain’t gonna change and we’ve already seen that with their comments here.