52 replies to this topic

[Erikl]

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Maybe because the new settlements was nothing but a massive hissy fit thrown by Israel who was butthurt over the Palestinian UN vote.

Tomorrow a bunch of French people will go to the UN and will ask to be accepted as an observer state. 138 states for in favour. Only 9 against. How will the Canadian government react?

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doesn't give a damn about the peace process.

And the one-sided move by the Palestinians doesn't advance peace as well. If anything, this makes peace fly further away.

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real problems that Israel doesn't seem to want to deal with.

Indeed. Show me any other country in the world where it's citizens cannot agree on it's boundaries for almost 70 years now. If we cannot do it, we cannot expect the world to be holier than the pope.

IMO, my government should annex Judea and Samaria, and give full citizenship (in a very long process, perhaps only to newly born Palestinians after the annexation) to all the inhabitants of the annexed territories. The Gaza Strip is now a Somalia-like land, and with the same party in power (Muslim Brotherhood) as in Egypt, should be pushed away to the hands of the Egyptians (ie we should stop providing electricity to them, stop allowing Israeli currency be the official currency, etc.).

Currently, 62% of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and some 2% of the Palestinians (about 50,000) in what is called Area C, are under direct Israeli rule. There, Jews are a majority (87%). The PA, in it's 20 years of governance, have proved anything good for both Israel and the Palestinians themselves. They govern 98% of the Palestinians. They teach them hatred, they steal money from their people, and the failed to dismantle the refugee camps. They keep feeding their people with delusions of millions of refugees flooding Israeli cities.

On the other hand, the only Arab people we seem to have peace with for the past 64 years, are Israeli Palestinians, now number some 1.5 million. By that logic, Israel should solve the conflict by annexing all of the West Bank, ridding the PA, dismantling the refugee camps, and offering them Israeli passports.

[RavenHawk]

Coffey, on 04 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

That's the problem with Israel extremists. You lot think the whole world is against you,

For some 3500 years, that has been the case.  Israeli extremists have nothing to do with it.  

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when in reality nobody cares, not out of nastiness,

The history of the world would seem to reject your premise.

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but because (this might shock you) Israel isn't the center of everyone's lives.

You’re just now coming to that realization?

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Jewish extremists are so up themselves, they actually believe they are the "chosen" and that everyone knows it. lol

I don’t know who knows it or not, but Israel are the chosen people.  Is that suppose to give them such special treatment?  They didn’t ask for it.

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Why are you so paranoid?! lol

Maybe because of the title of the OP?  Maybe because of action’s like Hitler’s “Final Solution”?  Because of words like Nasser saying he would kick the Jew back into the sea?  Or the words of Imanutjob to wipe Israel off the map?  I think they are rightfully paranoid.  Good thing nobody cares.

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You really think the US would let that happen. You really think the world would stand by and watch a country get torn apart? lol

The world is going crazy as we approach the Winter Solstice.  Things are building to a perfect storm.  The world may not come to an end but change is coming.  For now, it appears that the wrong side is winning for the moment.  But rationality and sanity are flying out the window as fast as it can.

[and then]

It's a UN version of tit for tat.  They passed a resolution against Israel. REALLY?  That's never happened before..... Israel has enemies on their borders willing to eliminate them for one reason, primarily.  It's because Israel has tried for 65 years to live as a respected, democratic State in the M.E.  They have shown so much restraint compared to their enemies that the world has been lulled into thinking that they HAVE to.  If the Palestinians, or any of the other Arab neighbors had a military the likes of Israel's there would long ago have been a cleansing of the area from the river to the sea.  Nasser said as much in '67 and the people of the entire region danced in the street for days.  
Israel is not required to do anything as a result of this newest of resolutions.  The world needs to tread carefully here though.  Sanctions?   Sure, they're expected.  But when you start actively trying to take away Israel's main defense you are apt to see them become less worried about respectability and more concerned with survival.  Is everyone so foolish that they don't realize the danger in this for the whole world?

[with bells on]

Israel will never sign and join.. they do what they want.. they have the USA and we all know the US let Israel do whatever it wants.. if it was any other country doing what Israel does, the US would of attacked it by now..

we need to impose sanctions on Israel.. see how they like it..

[and then]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

The day Israel will give up it's nuke, it'll start it's count down till destruction.

Egypt, Syria (in whatever form it'll exist after it's civil war is over) and many other Islamic countries will try once again to destroy us.

Erikl do you think the Israelis could ever become so sick of war that they would actually attempt to disarm for peace?  The Kadima crowd remind me of Obama's group of thugs here in DC - totally out of touch with reality and just making it up as they go along.  Scary.....

[and then]

with bells on, on 04 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Israel will never sign and join.. they do what they want.. they have the USA and we all know the US let Israel do whatever it wants.. if it was any other country doing what Israel does, the US would of attacked it by now..

we need to impose sanctions on Israel.. see how they like it..

I think you will have your wish soon enough.  The world seems to be headed into full stupid mode these days.  Be careful what you wish for though - it doesn't always work out as you planned.

[Professor T]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

The day Israel will give up it's nuke, it'll start it's count down till destruction.

Egypt, Syria (in whatever form it'll exist after it's civil war is over) and many other Islamic countries will try once again to destroy us.

This is the way of thinking that will destroy Israel and it's people imo.

Your talk of destruction only serves to bring it on..

[Professor T]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 04 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

From your article:

http://www.commondre...ne/2012/12/04-0

"The resolution passed with a 174-6 vote, and included 6 abstentions. Israel, the U.S., Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau were the "no" votes."

Israel had only 6 supporters out of 192 possibilities.

Perhaps the tide has finally turn, world opinion may convince the Israelis to play fair and by the rules.

What's pathetically sad is that both the USA and Canada were the only major nations to vote no.

My math might be a bit rusty.. actually it probably is, but doesn't this suggest that only 4% of the UN General assemby (WORLD) supported Israels stance on this?

[Erikl]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Erikl do you think the Israelis could ever become so sick of war that they would actually attempt to disarm for peace?  The Kadima crowd remind me of Obama's group of thugs here in DC - totally out of touch with reality and just making it up as they go along.  Scary.....

The problem is everyone seem to think that both sides equally want peace. It is true, but the terms are completely different. For the Arabs, ideal peace is without Israel in the Middle East. For the Israelis, the ideal peace would be no war, period, regardless with who. Many in the West seem to overlook this fact. This is why the "moderate" PA is insisting on the "right of return" of millions of Muslim Palestinians into Israel, not a Palestinian state alone. This is why the Palestinian militants will target civilians just as they'll target military targets - for them, the ideal peace is not a Palestine side by side Israel, but no Israel at all.

Right now, after decades of war, the Arabs came to term with the fact that Israel is a strong country. They see the Chinese and American head of states visit Israel. They see Israeli economy, as strong as many western european states. They see Israeli military might. They know Israel probably has a nuclear arsenal, which means Israel cannot currently be destroyed. But, they did not come to term with the right of Israel to exist. Some of them, like Hamas and Hezbollah, still believe Israel can be military defeated. Any change in the Israeli-Arab conflict must be judged according to these facts. This is why whenever Israel is pressurized, whenever Israel gives up land for peace, the extremists on the Arab side get stronger. After the disengagement plan, when Israel unilaterally evacuated Gaza in 2005, Hamas won the elections in 2006. This is why, after Israel unilaterally pulled out of Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah became the most powerful military force in Lebanon, and Arafat gave up on negotiations and started the Second Intifada.

If the EU and the US want to see peace, they need to obviously stand with Israel, where a Palestinian state is already a consensus, and show the Arab states that Israel is accepted as a normal, equal member among nations.

[Professor T]

with bells on, on 04 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

we need to impose sanctions on Israel.. see how they like it..

Yes...

Enough with the support for either side, and the bickering..

I think it is time for the world to Impose Peace on both sides of this conflict because after 65 years of fighting it has become abundantly clear to the world that they cannot agree on peace terms themselves..

Neither side can agree on peace..

I think it is time for the UN/World to get involved and impose that which they clearly come to terms with themselves..

And I think it's a damn good thing that the UN GA is starting to get involved and starting to finally start pointing the finger back at Israel..

Edited by Professor T, 04 December 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[Erikl]

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Neither side can agree on peace..

Wrong.

[and then]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

The problem is everyone seem to think that both sides equally want peace. It is true, but the terms are completely different. For the Arabs, ideal peace is without Israel in the Middle East. For the Israelis, the ideal peace would be no war, period, regardless with who. Many in the West seem to overlook this fact. This is why the "moderate" PA is insisting on the "right of return" of millions of Muslim Palestinians into Israel, not a Palestinian state alone. This is why the Palestinian militants will target civilians just as they'll target military targets - for them, the ideal peace is not a Palestine side by side Israel, but no Israel at all.

Right now, after decades of war, the Arabs came to term with the fact that Israel is a strong country. They see the Chinese and American head of states visit Israel. They see Israeli economy, as strong as many western european states. They see Israeli military might. They know Israel probably has a nuclear arsenal, which means Israel cannot currently be destroyed. But, they did not come to term with the right of Israel to exist. Some of them, like Hamas and Hezbollah, still believe Israel can be military defeated. Any change in the Israeli-Arab conflict must be judged according to these facts. This is why whenever Israel is pressurized, whenever Israel gives up land for peace, the extremists on the Arab side get stronger. After the disengagement plan, when Israel unilaterally evacuated Gaza in 2005, Hamas won the elections in 2006. This is why, after Israel unilaterally pulled out of Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah became the most powerful military force in Lebanon, and Arafat gave up on negotiations and started the Second Intifada.

If the EU and the US want to see peace, they need to obviously stand with Israel, where a Palestinian state is already a consensus, and show the Arab states that Israel is accepted as a normal, equal member among nations.

I understand all of this and agree with it.  And I am far from being some genius.  It makes me wonder how so many otherwise rational people can be so deluded about the intentions of the Palestinians.  They even SAY they want Israel destroyed.  But most nations still seem to think that if Israel will only keep giving land, everything will eventually "work out".  Some day the world is in for one HELL of a wakeup call.

[Coffey]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Oh wait, you don't even accept the fact it's out capital city.

Don't have a clue what you mean.

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Believe me, Israelis would love nothing but for the conflict to be judged proportionally to it's scope. It seems everything is ok in the world, and so Israel is judged by morals no other country is expected to hold.

Speaking rubbish again, I judge all countries exactly the same.

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Wrong.

Explain how?

Edited by Coffey, 04 December 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[Stellar]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 04 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

From your article:

http://www.commondre...ne/2012/12/04-0

"The resolution passed with a 174-6 vote, and included 6 abstentions. Israel, the U.S., Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau were the "no" votes."

Israel had only 6 supporters out of 192 possibilities.

Perhaps the tide has finally turn, world opinion may convince the Israelis to play fair and by the rules.

What's pathetically sad is that both the USA and Canada were the only major nations to vote no.

That is not what I expected from Canada, and I have a strong suspicion that the only reason we voted no was because of some sort of pressure from the US rather than because of any valid reasons or belief.

Canada's vote should be based on the sentiment of the nation.

[and then]

Professor T, on 04 December 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Yes...

Enough with the support for either side, and the bickering..

I think it is time for the world to Impose Peace on both sides of this conflict because after 65 years of fighting it has become abundantly clear to the world that they cannot agree on peace terms themselves..

Neither side can agree on peace..

I think it is time for the UN/World to get involved and impose that which they clearly come to terms with themselves..

And I think it's a damn good thing that the UN GA is starting to get involved and starting to finally start pointing the finger back at Israel..

Impose as in, what?  Try to use military force against Israel?  Because that is what it would take.  The world won't even try that with Assad's chaotic mess and his army is NOTHING like the IDF/IAF.  If the world's nations held a summit and called on BOTH sides to take tangible action then it would quickly become obvious who is obstructing peace.  The Palestinians have been asking for return to 1967 borders and the right of return for all refugees from 1947.  That would destroy the Jewish character of the State of Israel.  It isn't ever going to be allowed.  If they give up that "right" and Israel gives up it's insistence on Jerusalem being totally controlled by Israel then the beginnings of a deal could be found.  Jerusalem will become an international, open city.  Judea and Samaria will probably be in Palestinian hands as well as Gaza.  Some corridor will exist between the two but Israel will have free access to cross it at will.  But unless the Palestinians and other Arab States fully realize that they CANNOT EVER take it all by force, there will never be an agreement.  History has proven this over and over but every new group of pols thinks that just like socialism, it hasn't worked so far because THEY haven't tried it their way