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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#11521    Knul

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:15 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 May 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

It certainly looks they could be the same people, although the OLB doesn't say much about these BROKMANNA:


The best known of the Bructeri was their wise woman Veleda, the spiritual leader of the Batavi rising; her subsequent fate is not known, but it is generally believed that she was captured by the Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bructeri


Veleda was a völva (priestess and prophet) of the Germanic tribe of the Bructeri who achieved some prominence during the Batavian rebellion of AD 69–70, headed by the Romanized Batavian chieftain Gaius Julius Civilis, when she correctly predicted the initial successes of the rebels against Roman legions.

The name may be a generic title for a prophetess (cf. Old Norse vala). The ancient Germanic peoples discerned a divinity of prophecy in women and regarded prophetesses as true and living goddesses. In the latter half of the 1st century AD Veleda was regarded as a deity by most of the tribes in central Germany and enjoyed wide influence.[1] She lived in a tower near the Lippe River, a tributary of the Rhine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleda


===

"BROK"" in the OLB:

Alsa is Athênia wrdon êlik en brokland anda hête landa, fol blodsûgar, pogga aend feniniga snâka, hwêrin nên maenniske fon herde sêdum sin fot navt wâga ne mêi.

Such is Athens become, like a morass in a tropical country full of leeches, toads, and poisonous snakes, in which no man of decent habits can set his foot.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

Tha maenniska thêr to bek kêmon, gvngon alle binna tha hringdika thêra burgum hêma, thrvchdam et thêr buta al slyp aend broklând wêre.

The people who came back all lived within the lines of the citadel, as outside there was nothing but mud and marsh.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Bi mina jüged was-t ôre lând, thaet bûta tha hringdik lêid, al pol aend brok.

In my youth there was a portion of land lying outside the rampart all mud and marsh.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bs
==

brook (n.)
"small stream," O.E. broc "flowing stream, torrest," of obscure origin, probably from P.Gmc. *broka- which yielded words in German (Bruch) and Dutch (broek) that have a sense of "marsh." In Sussex and Kent, it means "water-meadow," and in plural, "low, marshy ground."

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0
Why not Brokmerland ? s. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Brokmerland


#11522    Abramelin

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:58 AM

View PostKnul, on 11 May 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

Why not Brokmerland ? s. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Brokmerland

Yes, if you read back, Van Gorp and I already mentioned that.

But do you know what it might mean?

Again, read back.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 May 2012 - 07:59 AM.


#11523    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostOtharus, on 10 May 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I do not agree that it only makes sense in the 'stoker'-vampire meaning.

"... suck their blood like leeches" makes perfect sense.
Yes, I agree.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#11524    Abramelin

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostKnul, on 08 May 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

You may also regard it as a wonderful idea of the author of the OLB to equate the names of the adjacent tribes to names of ordinary people:  Angeli - hengelaars (fishermen), Sicambri - zeekampers (seawarriors) - Sturii - stuurlieden (booatsmen). It shows the literary quality of the OLB.

Much of the explanations of these names are based on socalled 'folk etymology', or translating a foreign or simply unfamiliar word with something from your own language.

Let's say I never heard of an 'England'. If I read that name for the very first time, I will make it into the Dutch 'eng land', or something like creepy land, or even narrow land. Well, England (or better Brittain) is kind of elongated so there: Narrow Land.

And another thing: from Tacitus I understand the Sicambri were not living at the coasts.

So, either someone fabricated an etymology to explain Sicambri, or the Sekampar or not the same as the Sicambri.


#11525    Abramelin

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:47 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 11 May 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Yes, I agree.

And that's why I said: read it in its context:

FROM MINNO’S WRITINGS.

Nêan andere Hellênia, hi helpt my hügja that er en slach fon maenniska ovir hirtha omme dwâlth, thêr evin lik hi in kaerka aend hola hêma, thêr an tjuster frota, tach navt as hi, vmb vs fon mûsa aend ôra plaega to helpane, men renka to forsinna, tha ôra maenniska hjara witskip to râwane, til thju hja tham to bêtre müge fâta vmber slavona fon to mâkjande aend hjara blod ut to sûgane, even as vampyra dva.

No, answered Hellenia; he reminds me that there is a kind of people that dwell on earth who, like him, have their homes in dungeons and holes, who rout around in the twilight, not, like him, to deliver us from mice and other plagues, but to invent tricks to steal away the knowledge of other people, in order to take advantage of them, to make slaves of them, and to suck their blood like vampires do.

As far as I know, leeches do not make slaves and do not steal knowledge and do not live in dungeons and holes.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 May 2012 - 01:35 PM.


#11526    Otharus

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

As far as I know, leeches do not make slaves and do not steal knowledge and do not live in dungeons and holes.
You can read it like that if you want, but it's not sure if that's what the author meant.

"... even as vampyra dva" can just as well simply refer to the bloodsucking part only.


#11527    Otharus

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 May 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Much of the explanations of these names are based on socalled 'folk etymology', or translating a foreign or simply unfamiliar word with something from your own language.
It would be interesting to know if there are other languages in which so many plausible 'folk etymologies' are possible.

Quote

And another thing: from Tacitus I understand the Sicambri were not living at the coasts.
So, either someone fabricated an etymology to explain Sicambri, or the Sekampar or not the same as the Sicambri.
That reasoning is flawed.

It is very well possible that the name originally meant Sea-warriors and that the tribe moved more inland later, keeping the name.

Just think of family names, for example:
People that are called "Van Dijk" don't have to live on or near a dike.
People with the name "De Boer" don't have to be farmers.


#11528    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:27 AM

View PostOtharus, on 11 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

You can read it like that if you want, but it's not sure if that's what the author meant.

"... even as vampyra dva" can just as well simply refer to the bloodsucking part only.

It's strange, then, that the OLB uses a word that can only mean 'leech' or 'blood sucker' :

Alsa is Athênia wrdon êlik en brokland anda hête landa, fol blodsûgar, pogga aend feniniga snâka, hwêrin nên maenniske fon herde sêdum sin fot navt wâga ne mêi.

Such is Athens become, like a morass in a tropical country full of leeches, toads, and poisonous snakes, in which no man of decent habits can set his foot.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

To me it's obvious vampyra is exactly what we are supposed to think it is. And that's not just a leech or else they would have used the word blodsûgar


#11529    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

It's strange, then, that the OLB uses a word that can only mean 'leech' or 'blood sucker' :

... fol blodsûgar, pogga aend feniniga snâka...
This quote [079/07] is from the eastern wall of Fryasburch.
It was supposedly written '1005 years after Aldland sank' (ca. 1200 BCE).

The quote with VAMPIRA is from Minno's notes [035/13].
Minno was a contemporary of Nyhellénja a.k.a. Minerva.
She lived in the 6th century 'after Aldland sank' (ca. 1600 BCE).

OLB has many examples of different words with the same meaning.

BLODSUGAR is literally blood-sucker, the word VAMPIRA is unsure.
It would make sense though, if PIRA means 'worm' (dutch: pier).

Therefore, it is not at all strange that in OLB both VAMPIRA and BLODSUGAR are used as names for what we term "leach" (dutch: bloedzuiger).

Edited by Otharus, 12 May 2012 - 10:19 AM.


#11530    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:54 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

To me it's obvious vampyra is exactly what we are supposed to think it is.
Remarkable statement.

How can we know what we are supposed to think?


#11531    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 10:18 AM

View PostOtharus, on 12 May 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Remarkable statement.

How can we know what we are supposed to think?

Because of this:

No, answered Hellenia; he reminds me that there is a kind of people that dwell on earth who, like him, have their homes in dungeons and holes, who rout around in the twilight, not, like him, to deliver us from mice and other plagues, but to invent tricks to steal away the knowledge of other people, in order to take advantage of them, to make slaves of them, and to suck their blood like vampires do


We are supposed to think of the vampires that were made into a hype all over Europe in 1820. Not your avarage leeches, but the Dracula type.


#11532    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 10:45 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

We are supposed to think of the vampires that were made into a hype all over Europe in 1820.

That's your interpretation.

Ottema: bloedzuigers (bloodsuckers; leeches)
Sandbach: leeches
Wirth: Vampire (vampires)
Overwijn: as Ottema
Jensma: vampiers
De Heer: vampieren
Raubenheimer: vampires
Knul: as Ottema

It's typical for an old text that various interpretations are possible.

That to you, your interpretation "obviously" is the best, is not a valid argument.


#11533    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 10:48 AM

The OLB specifically uses the word 'vampire' and typical vampire (the Dracula type) characteristics.

If you don't want to see it, be my guest.


#11534    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

The OLB specifically uses the word 'vampire' and typical vampire (the Dracula type) characteristics.
It is very well possible that Bram Stoker (1847-1912) got some of his inspriation for "Dracula" (1897) from this OLB fragment.


#11535    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:03 PM

View PostOtharus, on 12 May 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

It is very well possible that Bram Stoker (1847-1912) got some of his inspriation for "Dracula" (1897) from this OLB fragment.

First I want to say this: this thread really covers anything. Who the hell would have thought we would be discussing vampires here, lol.

OK.

The next will be a quote fest, but I hope you will get my drift.

"The Vampyre" is a short story or novella written in 1819 by John William Polidori which is a progenitor of the romantic vampire genre of fantasy fiction. The work is described by Christopher Frayling as "the first story successfully to fuse the disparate elements of vampirism into a coherent literary genre.

(...)

Polidori's work (1816/1819) had an immense impact on contemporary sensibilities and ran through numerous editions and translations. An adaptation appeared in 1820 with Cyprien Bérard’s novel, Lord Ruthwen ou les Vampires, falsely attributed to Charles Nodier, who himself then wrote his own version, Le Vampire, a play which had enormous success and sparked a "vampire craze" across Europe. This includes operatic adaptations by Heinrich Marschner (see Der Vampyr) and Peter Josef von Lindpaintner (see Der Vampyr), both published in the same year and called "The Vampire". Nikolai Gogol, Alexandre Dumas, and Alexis Tolstoy all produced vampire tales, and themes in Polidori's tale would continue to influence Bram Stoker's Dracula and eventually the whole vampire genre. Dumas makes explicit reference to Lord Ruthwen in The Count of Monte Cristo, going so far as to state that his character "The Comtesse G..." had been personally acquainted with Lord Ruthwen.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Vampyre


The story was an immediate success and several other authors quickly adapted the character of Lord Ruthven into other works. Cyprien Bérard wrote an 1820 novel, Lord Ruthwen ou les Vampires, which was falsely attributed to Charles Nodier. Nodier himself wrote an 1820 play, Le Vampire, which was adapted back into English for the London stage by James Robinson Planché as The Vampire, or The Bride of the Isles. At least four other stage versions of the story also appeared in 1820.
In 1828, Heinrich August Marschner and W. A. Wohlbrück adapted the story into a German opera, Der Vampyr. A second German opera with the same title was written in 1828 by Peter Josef von Lindpaintner and Cäsar Max Heigel, but the vampire in Lindpaintner's opera was named Aubri, not Ruthven. Dion Boucicault revived the character in his 1852 play The Vampire: A Phantasm, and played the title role during its long run. Alexandre Dumas, père also used the character in an 1852 play.
A Lord Ruthven also exists in Tom Holland's novel, Lord of the Dead. Lord Ruthven is actually Lord Byron.

A Lord Ruthven also appeared in the Swedish novel Vampyren (1848), the first published work by author and poet Viktor Rydberg; as the story unfolds, it becomes clear that he is inspired by him in name only. This Ruthven is actually no supernatural being at all, but a deranged psychopath believing himself to be a vampire.

http://en.wikipedia....thven_(vampire)



Polidori's novel can (partly) be read from page 265 of this book:

http://books.google....=dungeon&f=true


Before writing Dracula, Stoker spent several years researching European folklore and mythological stories of vampires.

(...)

Stoker's inspirations for the story, in addition to Whitby, may have included a visit to Slains Castle in Aberdeenshire, a visit to the crypts of St. Michan's Church in Dublin and the novella Carmilla by Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Bram_Stoker

http://www.h2g2.com/...d_entry/A273566

http://www.ucs.mun.c...pires_drac.html



Count Dracula, of course, was not the first vampire. Vampires had existed in folklore and legend for hundreds of years, back to ancient times.

Stoker came across some information about vampire beliefs in Transylvania which he used in the novel. He was also familiar with earlier vampire literature written in English during the 19th century.

http://www.ucs.mun.c...er/origins.html



Both Bram Stoker and the OLB are mentioned on this wikipage: http://en.wikipedia..../False_document


The only connection between Stoker and the Netherlands is this:

Bram Stoker's Abraham Van Helsing
Van Helsing Character was Inspired by Dutch Author Robert Roosevelt


http://truelegends.i.../vanhelsing.htm


But:

Author Of Dracula used Walt Whitman as Inspiration for Dracula

http://truelegends.i...lle/dracula.htm