104 replies to this topic

[PersonFromPorlock]

If I may make a suggestion: the eruption of Thera must have made a profound impression on those close enough to see it and far enough away to survive: 'this is what the gods look like when they're pissed' sort of thing. Maybe that impression lasted long enough to later be grafted onto the story of the Exodus as a signifier of God. That would link the eruption to the Exodus while neatly avoiding the problems of time, distance and the mobility of the pillar.

[kmt_sesh]

PersonFromPorlock, on 03 February 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

If I may make a suggestion: the eruption of Thera must have made a profound impression on those close enough to see it and far enough away to survive: 'this is what the gods look like when they're pissed' sort of thing. Maybe that impression lasted long enough to later be grafted onto the story of the Exodus as a signifier of God. That would link the eruption to the Exodus while neatly avoiding the problems of time, distance and the mobility of the pillar.

That's entirely plausible, and in fact it's been suggested by some scholars in the past. Most of the stories and fables put into the Hebrew Bible were written centuries after the fact, so there's little doubt that the facts and details are in error or misrepresented in any number of ways.

So for instance, even though the Syro-Palestinians who came to be called the Hyksos have no relation to the Hebrews, the fact that a large group of Semitic people left Egypt more or less at one time may have become, many centuries later, the basis for the Hebrews leaving Egypt under Moses. That the Hyksos were violently expelled is immaterial to the agenda of establishing the Exodus event, which is so central to Judaic tradition. Similarly, while it's highly unlikely anyone living in Egypt in the mid-seventeenth century BCE was able to witness the Thera eruption hundreds of miles distant out in the Aegean, some scholars have played with the idea that climatic upheavals caused by the dispersing ash clouds could've led to numerous environmental problems that later came to be represented in the Exodus story as the plagues.

As attractive as these scenarios are, it must be stressed that they are entirely speculative. I've entertained the hypothesis myself and can see it as somewhat plausible, but in the end we all have to bear in mind that there remains no extra-biblical evidence whatsoever for the events portrayed in Exodus, nor even for the biblical character named Moses.

[blackdogsun]

found this picture of the ash cloud from mt etna volcano drifting over northern africa
being at a similar latitude to thera i thought it might be of interest
http://www.nytimes.c...l?ref=science#4

[questionmark]

blackdogsun, on 03 February 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

<br>found this picture of the ash cloud from mt etna volcano drifting over northern africa<br>being at a similar latitude to thera i thought it might be of interest<br><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/12/02/science/space/20111202-planetscapes.html?ref=science#4" target="_blank" class="bbc_url" title="External link">http://www.nytimes.c...l?ref=science#4</a><br>

<br>&nbsp;One thing is to see it from space, quite another seeing it from the ground,<br><br><br>

[The Puzzler]

Our south eastern airports, Sydney, Melbourne were shut from the ash cloud that drifted over the Pacific from the Chile volcano last year.

MASSIVE "clumps" of volcanic ash will still cover all of Tasmania, as well as Adelaide and large parts of South Australia tomorrow and may stay for several days.

The ash from Chile's Puyehue-Cordon Caulle volcano 11,000km from Australia - which began erupting on June 4 - was similar to the one from a volcanic eruption in Iceland earlier this year, which sent European airports into chaos.
http://www.courierma...6-1226073601542

I know this ash is very high but still, maybe in different weather conditions, who knows what they do...

[The Puzzler]

kmt_sesh, on 02 February 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Where you and I always seem to disagree, Puzzler, in on the origins of things. Now, don't kick me in the nads, but Greek religion, the deities worshiped therein, and other cultural aspects did not come to North Africa until much later periods (the Early Iron Age, to be specific). The Greeks began to colonize coastal Mediterranean sites only in the seventh century BCE, and in fact Cyrene, the oldest Greek colony in Libya, cannot be dated to much before 630 BCE. The Greeks brought their gods with them, and that's how we end up finding their gods so far-flung by late antiquity. I'm well aware of the posited Western Semitic and Asia Minor origin for certain Greek deities, but deities like Poseidon are not evidenced in North Africa before the Greeks arrived there.

Hmm, well, that's after the Greeks took him on, his name is seen in Linear B on Crete and Plato thinks he and Athena came in from Libya at the dawn of Greek culture, since Athena's name appears to also be in Linear B on Crete, it is likely imo, that as these pre-Thera eruption societies traded, they also traded knowledge about their Gods and that Athena as Neith was a Libyan Goddess and also Poseidon was some kind of God to them, associated with Triton, who he may have originally been - these 2 Gods went into Crete this way, then their names were recorded in early writing, hardly likely to have been written anywhere in Libya at this early time, but from Crete, they enter mainland Greece. Then as a God in his own right, Poseidon settles with Dorians on Thera as their God and then travels to Cyrene, when they settle there.
The Siwa Oasis area of Egypt was part of ancient Libya, it had a massive palm/date/oil trade with Crete, the Cretans and Libyans certainly had trade connections in ancient times nearly 1000 years prior to the settling of Cyrene.

[kmt_sesh]

The Puzzler, on 05 February 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

Hmm, well, that's after the Greeks took him on, his name is seen in Linear B on Crete and Plato thinks he and Athena came in from Libya at the dawn of Greek culture, since Athena's name appears to also be in Linear B on Crete,

Linear B preserves an archaic dialect of Greek, the oldest tablet of which dates to around 1450 BCE, but as far as I'm aware every known instance of Linear B is entirely prosaic. Linear B does not record folk tales or hero sagas or the names of kings and such: all of the tablets are merely inventories and accounting records. Personal names are known in Linear B, as are job titles (e.g., fuller, potter), but I am not aware of Linear B tablets which talk about Greek deities.

That's one of the greatest humorous ironies in the history of linguistics: after all the years it took to decipher Linear B and all of the brilliant people engaged in the attempt, once deciphered, Linear B proved to be quite literally boring as hell. The most important thing is that it proved the people who had adapted it from the Minoan script and used it for themselves, were in fact archaic Greeks (to his death, for instance, Evans was absolutely positive Linear B was just as Minoan as Linear A).

Also, although I know you hate hearing this, Plato was not an historian. However much he may have thought this or that deity originated in this or that land, there was no realistic way he could've known one way or the other. He lived an exceedingly long time after the events that first formed the Greek world.

Quote

it is likely imo, that as these pre-Thera eruption societies traded, they also traded knowledge about their Gods

I have no reason to doubt that, but remember Linear B postdates the Thera eruption by a couple of centuries. No records or inscriptions of Mycenaean origin exist prior to Thera, as far as I'm aware. There was clearly cross-cultural transference between the Minoans and Mycenaeans, which appears in architecture, metalworking, and ceramicware. But as far as religion and specific deities go, the historical record for pre-Thera Mycenae remains pretty much silent.

Quote

and that Athena as Neith was a Libyan Goddess and also Poseidon was some kind of God to them, associated with Triton

There is no connection between Athena and Neith. Neith was an important goddess of Egypt going all the way back to the beginnings of the Egyptian state, more than 5,000 years ago. That far back, nothing identifiably Greek even existed. In fact, this almost certainly would've been well before the Indo-Europeans who became the Greeks migrated south down into the mainland that would become Greece. Neith appears in the historical record of Egypt from the very beginning, but not in Libya. I cannot think of any archaeological or cultural evidence that would suggest Neith appeared in Libya before she did in Egypt.

I'll put it another way: for your argument to hold, there would have to be clear and observable evidence for the veneration of Neith or a Poseidon-like god in Libya long before the Greeks spread out into the Mediterranean. Indeed, the Libyans were similar in a way to the earliest Egyptians in that they were not a seafaring people, nor did they have any particular associations with the sea as far as I'm aware. The Libyans were desert tribes from the very start.

Quote

The Siwa Oasis area of Egypt was part of ancient Libya, it had a massive palm/date/oil trade with Crete, the Cretans and Libyans certainly had trade connections in ancient times nearly 1000 years prior to the settling of Cyrene.

Technically, no, Siwa was not part of ancient Libya. That region is called the Libyan desert in modern times, but in ancient times, for most of recorded history, all of the oases in the Western Desert were controlled by pharaonic Egypt. There were times when the Egyptian state slipped and foreigners took control--such as when the Libyans wrested control of Egypt in the Third Intermediate Period--but these periods were the exception to the rule.

I am not familiar with settlement sites at Siwa. It was chiefly important because of its temple to Amun (a.k.a. the Oracle of Siwa). This temple dates to the Late Period of Egypt and specifically to Dynasty 26 (beginning c. 664 BCE). It does not date to more ancient times. And by this period the Greeks had already expanded into the Mediterranean, Libya included, so trade between Greeks, Egyptians, and wondering Libyan tribes would've been the norm. This certainly does not, however, imply connections dating to thousands of years before that.

[Harte]

The Puzzler, on 05 February 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Our south eastern airports, Sydney, Melbourne were shut from the ash cloud that drifted over the Pacific from the Chile volcano last year.

And?

Did you follow it out of the slavery of Sidney?

Did it maneuver itself between you and an advancing army of Aussies trying to make you stay?

I won't ask about your burning bush.  

Harte

[The Puzzler]

Harte, on 05 February 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

And?

Did you follow it out of the slavery of Sidney?

Did it maneuver itself between you and an advancing army of Aussies trying to make you stay?

I won't ask about your burning bush.  

Harte

OK, I was just saying, that it travelled a long way and maybe ash fall and accompanying smoke is capable of travelling long distances, in different circumstances, depending on the weather at the time.

[The Puzzler]

kmt_sesh, on 05 February 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

Linear B preserves an archaic dialect of Greek, the oldest tablet of which dates to around 1450 BCE, but as far as I'm aware every known instance of Linear B is entirely prosaic. Linear B does not record folk tales or hero sagas or the names of kings and such: all of the tablets are merely inventories and accounting records. Personal names are known in Linear B, as are job titles (e.g., fuller, potter), but I am not aware of Linear B tablets which talk about Greek deities.

That's one of the greatest humorous ironies in the history of linguistics: after all the years it took to decipher Linear B and all of the brilliant people engaged in the attempt, once deciphered, Linear B proved to be quite literally boring as hell. The most important thing is that it proved the people who had adapted it from the Minoan script and used it for themselves, were in fact archaic Greeks (to his death, for instance, Evans was absolutely positive Linear B was just as Minoan as Linear A).

Also, although I know you hate hearing this, Plato was not an historian. However much he may have thought this or that deity originated in this or that land, there was no realistic way he could've known one way or the other. He lived an exceedingly long time after the events that first formed the Greek world.



I have no reason to doubt that, but remember Linear B postdates the Thera eruption by a couple of centuries. No records or inscriptions of Mycenaean origin exist prior to Thera, as far as I'm aware. There was clearly cross-cultural transference between the Minoans and Mycenaeans, which appears in architecture, metalworking, and ceramicware. But as far as religion and specific deities go, the historical record for pre-Thera Mycenae remains pretty much silent.



There is no connection between Athena and Neith. Neith was an important goddess of Egypt going all the way back to the beginnings of the Egyptian state, more than 5,000 years ago. That far back, nothing identifiably Greek even existed. In fact, this almost certainly would've been well before the Indo-Europeans who became the Greeks migrated south down into the mainland that would become Greece. Neith appears in the historical record of Egypt from the very beginning, but not in Libya. I cannot think of any archaeological or cultural evidence that would suggest Neith appeared in Libya before she did in Egypt.

I'll put it another way: for your argument to hold, there would have to be clear and observable evidence for the veneration of Neith or a Poseidon-like god in Libya long before the Greeks spread out into the Mediterranean. Indeed, the Libyans were similar in a way to the earliest Egyptians in that they were not a seafaring people, nor did they have any particular associations with the sea as far as I'm aware. The Libyans were desert tribes from the very start.



Technically, no, Siwa was not part of ancient Libya. That region is called the Libyan desert in modern times, but in ancient times, for most of recorded history, all of the oases in the Western Desert were controlled by pharaonic Egypt. There were times when the Egyptian state slipped and foreigners took control--such as when the Libyans wrested control of Egypt in the Third Intermediate Period--but these periods were the exception to the rule.

I am not familiar with settlement sites at Siwa. It was chiefly important because of its temple to Amun (a.k.a. the Oracle of Siwa). This temple dates to the Late Period of Egypt and specifically to Dynasty 26 (beginning c. 664 BCE). It does not date to more ancient times. And by this period the Greeks had already expanded into the Mediterranean, Libya included, so trade between Greeks, Egyptians, and wondering Libyan tribes would've been the norm. This certainly does not, however, imply connections dating to thousands of years before that.

Siwa Oasis is one of Egypt's most isolated settlements, with 23,000 people, mostly ethnic Berbers[1] who speak a distinct language of the Berber family known as Siwi. Its fame lies primarily in its ancient role as the home to an oracle of Amon, the ruins of which are a popular tourist attraction which gave the oasis its ancient name Ammonium. Historically, it is part of Ancient Libya.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Siwa_Oasis

It's more Berber than Egyptian.

Lake Tritonis:
At an unknown date, an earthquake collapsed dikes or the land structures that kept the lake from drying up, causing drainage to the sea of most of the fresh water and at the most allowing for a seasonal lake or marsh. It then became associated with Chott el-Djerid, a seasonal lake which is marshy and shallow.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Lake_Tritonis

Plato was no historian, I agree, but he knew what was to be known about the Gods. Athena was from Libya.

The Greek philosopher, Plato (429–347 BC), identified her with the Libyan deity Neith, the war goddess and huntress deity of the Egyptians since the ancient Pre-Dynastic period, who was also identified with weaving. This is sensible, as some Greeks identified Athena's birthplace, in certain mythological renditions, as being beside Libya's Triton River.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

Athena:
When Athena is addressed as Athene Tritogeneia ("born of Trito"),[4] the archaic epithet is explained by the episode where, having sprung fully formed from the head—or thigh—of Zeus—who had swallowed her pregnant mother to prevent his own downfall from the rule over the current Greek pantheon by her progeny, as predicted—the goddess was escorted to Lake Trito and attended to by the nymphs.[5] A different interpretation, taking into consideration much earlier Greek and Minoan myths, leads translator Robert Graves to suggest that the reverse direction of religious influence occurred, with Neith being the deity who influenced development of the Greek concept for the goddess Athene. Neith was an ancient deity when first appearing in the earliest Egyptian pantheon, and is suspected to have originated among the Berbers.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Lake_Tritonis

Athena in Linear B:
Although at Knossos Athena appears before Zeus does—in Linear B, as a-ta-na po-ti-ni-ja, "Mistress Athena"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

Poseidon in Linear B:
If surviving Linear B clay tablets can be trusted, the name po-se-da-wo-ne ("Poseidon") occurs with greater frequency than does di-u-ja ("Zeus"). A feminine variant, po-se-de-ia, is also found, indicating a lost consort goddess, in effect a precursor of Amphitrite. Tablets from Pylos record sacrificial goods destined for "the Two Queens and Poseidon" and to "the Two Queens and the King".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 05 February 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

OK, I was just saying, that it travelled a long way and maybe ash fall and accompanying smoke is capable of travelling long distances, in different circumstances, depending on the weather at the time.

Based on the available evidence from ash deposits, we have a good understanding of Thera's eruption, in direction and distance. None of which would make it relevant to a fictional story involving Ancient Egypt and Israelites.



cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 06 February 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[kmt_sesh]

My apologies for reintroducing a stale discussion but I owed a reply to Puzzler. I had completely forgotten about this post she wrote in response to one of mine. I will try to keep it as brief as possible. If interest in this discussion returns, so be it.

The Puzzler, on 05 February 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Siwa Oasis is one of Egypt's most isolated settlements, with 23,000 people, mostly ethnic Berbers[1] who speak a distinct language of the Berber family known as Siwi. Its fame lies primarily in its ancient role as the home to an oracle of Amon, the ruins of which are a popular tourist attraction which gave the oasis its ancient name Ammonium. Historically, it is part of Ancient Libya.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Siwa_Oasis

It's more Berber than Egyptian.

It might be today, but today is not the same as ancient times. With respect, Wikipedia is decidedly wrong on this issue. Ancient Libyan tribes rarely held sway over any of the western oases because they were rarely powerful enough to wrest the oases from the Egyptians. And to the Egyptians these oases were lucrative sites for trade and settlements, as well as a buffer zone to keep Libyan tribes at bay. As I wrote earlier, really the only time Libyans controlled the oases, Siwa included, was during those periods when the Egyptian kingdom waned, especially in the Third Intermediate Period.

Quote

Plato was no historian, I agree, but he knew what was to be known about the Gods. Athena was from Libya.

Plato lived in the late fifth and early fourth centuries BCE, which means without a doubt he would've been well familiar with the proper veneration and cults of Greek deities in the late fifth and early fourth centuries BCE. But as to the actual origins of these gods? No. Plato would've learned the same as any other educated Greek man: from Greek myths based on much older oral traditions. Neither myths nor oral traditions reliably preserve historical realities.

Quote

The Greek philosopher, Plato (429–347 BC), identified her with the Libyan deity Neith, the war goddess and huntress deity of the Egyptians since the ancient Pre-Dynastic period, who was also identified with weaving. This is sensible, as some Greeks identified Athena's birthplace, in certain mythological renditions, as being beside Libya's Triton River.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

Athena:
When Athena is addressed as Athene Tritogeneia ("born of Trito"),[4] the archaic epithet is explained by the episode where, having sprung fully formed from the head—or thigh—of Zeus—who had swallowed her pregnant mother to prevent his own downfall from the rule over the current Greek pantheon by her progeny, as predicted—the goddess was escorted to Lake Trito and attended to by the nymphs.[5] A different interpretation, taking into consideration much earlier Greek and Minoan myths, leads translator Robert Graves to suggest that the reverse direction of religious influence occurred, with Neith being the deity who influenced development of the Greek concept for the goddess Athene. Neith was an ancient deity when first appearing in the earliest Egyptian pantheon, and is suspected to have originated among the Berbers.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Lake_Tritonis

What I'd really like to see is your contributing academic research establishing validity in the argument that Athena comes from Neith. The above contains a brief note about Robert Graves but I could find no citation to a particular paper or article. Wikipedia alone is not acceptable. I'm not saying it's impossible, only unlikely. I personally know of no research supporting it, but I stress the academic body of literature on Greek deities is well beyond my forte. However, Egypt and its environs are my forte (ancient Libya included). I certainly don't know everything so I double-checked several different books I have on Egyptian deities and the origin and development of pharaonic religion, and none of the authors suggest Neith is Libyan in origin. The earliest appearance of her iconography (crossed arrows on a pole) and the earliest appearance of her statuary come from Egypt, not Libya. Of course, if you're aware of academic research stating otherwise, I'd be glad to read it.

Quote

Athena in Linear B:
Although at Knossos Athena appears before Zeus does—in Linear B, as a-ta-na po-ti-ni-ja, "Mistress Athena"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

Poseidon in Linear B:
If surviving Linear B clay tablets can be trusted, the name po-se-da-wo-ne ("Poseidon") occurs with greater frequency than does di-u-ja ("Zeus"). A feminine variant, po-se-de-ia, is also found, indicating a lost consort goddess, in effect a precursor of Amphitrite. Tablets from Pylos record sacrificial goods destined for "the Two Queens and Poseidon" and to "the Two Queens and the King".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon

Here you got me. I stand corrected. Greek deities are in fact mentioned in Linear B. I exaggerated my argument to the point of inaccuracy because I misunderstood the paucity of information in Linear B tablets. They contain no historical accounts or king lists but do indeed mention the names of Greek deities. Still, allow me to return to your statement that prompted me to post my inaccurate comment (from February 4):

Hmm, well, that's after the Greeks took him on, his name is seen in Linear B on Crete and Plato thinks he and Athena came in from Libya at the dawn of Greek culture, since Athena's name appears to also be in Linear B on Crete...

No one denies the many influences the Minoans must have had on the Mycenaeans, but the Minoans are quite separate from the ancient Libyans. Even if Minoans interacted and traded with Libyan tribes, I don't know of any research supporting how one group's religion and deities might have influenced the other's. Linear B mentions the names of Greek gods, but this has nothing to do with ancient Libya.

[The Puzzler]

kmt_sesh, on 12 February 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

My apologies for reintroducing a stale discussion but I owed a reply to Puzzler. I had completely forgotten about this post she wrote in response to one of mine. I will try to keep it as brief as possible. If interest in this discussion returns, so be it.



It might be today, but today is not the same as ancient times. With respect, Wikipedia is decidedly wrong on this issue. Ancient Libyan tribes rarely held sway over any of the western oases because they were rarely powerful enough to wrest the oases from the Egyptians. And to the Egyptians these oases were lucrative sites for trade and settlements, as well as a buffer zone to keep Libyan tribes at bay. As I wrote earlier, really the only time Libyans controlled the oases, Siwa included, was during those periods when the Egyptian kingdom waned, especially in the Third Intermediate Period.



Plato lived in the late fifth and early fourth centuries BCE, which means without a doubt he would've been well familiar with the proper veneration and cults of Greek deities in the late fifth and early fourth centuries BCE. But as to the actual origins of these gods? No. Plato would've learned the same as any other educated Greek man: from Greek myths based on much older oral traditions. Neither myths nor oral traditions reliably preserve historical realities.



What I'd really like to see is your contributing academic research establishing validity in the argument that Athena comes from Neith. The above contains a brief note about Robert Graves but I could find no citation to a particular paper or article. Wikipedia alone is not acceptable. I'm not saying it's impossible, only unlikely. I personally know of no research supporting it, but I stress the academic body of literature on Greek deities is well beyond my forte. However, Egypt and its environs are my forte (ancient Libya included). I certainly don't know everything so I double-checked several different books I have on Egyptian deities and the origin and development of pharaonic religion, and none of the authors suggest Neith is Libyan in origin. The earliest appearance of her iconography (crossed arrows on a pole) and the earliest appearance of her statuary come from Egypt, not Libya. Of course, if you're aware of academic research stating otherwise, I'd be glad to read it.



Here you got me. I stand corrected. Greek deities are in fact mentioned in Linear B. I exaggerated my argument to the point of inaccuracy because I misunderstood the paucity of information in Linear B tablets. They contain no historical accounts or king lists but do indeed mention the names of Greek deities. Still, allow me to return to your statement that prompted me to post my inaccurate comment (from February 4):

Hmm, well, that's after the Greeks took him on, his name is seen in Linear B on Crete and Plato thinks he and Athena came in from Libya at the dawn of Greek culture, since Athena's name appears to also be in Linear B on Crete...

No one denies the many influences the Minoans must have had on the Mycenaeans, but the Minoans are quite separate from the ancient Libyans. Even if Minoans interacted and traded with Libyan tribes, I don't know of any research supporting how one group's religion and deities might have influenced the other's. Linear B mentions the names of Greek gods, but this has nothing to do with ancient Libya.

Thanks kmt. Appreciate your answers.

Again, I don't know exactly what counts as 'academic research' which always seems biased overrated drivel and opinionated guesses but hey, that's just my opinion, lol - but Wiki covers it well I think. Here's some more, this time going back further than Neith, to her originally being Tanit. I cannot see Egyptian researchers jumping up and down to let us know that several important Egyptian dieties are in fact, not Egyptian.  

It is thought that Neith may correspond to the goddess Tanit, worshipped in north Africa by the early Berber culture (existing from the beginnings of written records) and through the first Punic culture originating from the founding of Carthage by Dido.

Ta-nit, meaning in Egyptian the land of Nit, also was a sky-dwelling goddess of war, a virginal mother goddess and nurse, and, less specifically, a symbol of fertility. Her symbol is remarkably similar to the Egyptian ankh and her shrine, excavated at Sarepta in southern Phoenicia, revealed an inscription that related her securely to the Phoenician goddess Astarte (Ishtar). Several of the major Greek goddesses also were identified with Tanit by the syncretic, interpretatio graeca, which recognized as Greek deities in foreign guise the deities of most of the surrounding non-Hellene cultures.

The Greek historian, Herodotus (c. 484-425 BC), noted that the Egyptian citizens of Sais in Egypt worshipped Neith and that they identified her with Athena. The Timaeus, a Socratic dialogue written by Plato, mirrors that identification with Athena, possibly as a result of the identification of both goddesses with war and weaving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

Maybe your academic researchers got it wrong about the Siwa Oasis being a Libyan area because if the Siwa language is a Berber language it strikes me strange it would be so Egyptian as you are saying it is.
Modern Egypt contains the Siwa Oasis, historically part of Libya, where the Berber Siwi language is still spoken.

About 80 km (50 mi) in length and 20 km (12 mi) wide,[1] Siwa Oasis is one of Egypt's most isolated settlements, with 23,000 people, mostly ethnic Berbers[1] who speak a distinct language of the Berber family known as Siwi. Its fame lies primarily in its ancient role as the home to an oracle of Amon, the ruins of which are a popular tourist attraction which gave the oasis its ancient name Ammonium. Historically, it is part of Ancient Libya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

26th Dynasty according to this:
Although the oasis is known to have been settled since at least the 10th millennium BC, the earliest evidence of connection with ancient Egypt is the 26th Dynasty, when a necropolis was established. During the Ptolemaid period of Egypt its ancient Egyptian name was sḫ.t-ỉm3w, "Field of Trees".[7] Interestingly, "siwa" and other versions of it -- "ziwa," "zibva," "shiba," and "shiwa" -- mean lake or sea in some languages of Zambia, Malawi, Zimbabwe, and the DRC, among others.

Greek settlers at Cyrene made contact with the oasis around the same time (7th century BC), and the oracle temple of Amun (Greek: Zeus Ammon), who, Herodotus was told, took the image here of a ram.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Siwa_Oasis


But anyway, all certainly worth thinking more about imo and I'll check my Egypt books too to see if I can add anything else from them.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 06 February 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Based on the available evidence from ash deposits, we have a good understanding of Thera's eruption, in direction and distance. None of which would make it relevant to a fictional story involving Ancient Egypt and Israelites.



cormac

Good map, yep, maybe Riaan could use it.

[Riaan]

The Puzzler, on 12 February 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Good map, yep, maybe Riaan could use it.

I have something similar, thanks.