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Global Warming.


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Is global warming really true? I forget exactly where I heard it, but I heard that global warming is just a way to scare us into things, and so governments can collect carbon taxes. The same person that said this also said that The Earth is just naturally going thru changes, just as all planets do. Whats your input about global warming? I don't know what exactly to believe because I don't trust the government as far as i can throw it. I wouldn't put it passed them.

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Well, here's some news out today:

Last Time Carbon Dioxide Levels Were This High: 15 Million Years Ago, Scientists Report

ScienceDaily (Oct. 9, 2009) — You would have to go back at least 15 million years to find carbon dioxide levels on Earth as high as they are today, a UCLA scientist and colleagues report Oct. 8 in the online edition of the journal Science.

"The last time carbon dioxide levels were apparently as high as they are today — and were sustained at those levels — global temperatures were 5 to 10 degrees Fahrenheit higher than they are today, the sea level was approximately 75 to 120 feet higher than today, there was no permanent sea ice cap in the Arctic and very little ice on Antarctica and Greenland," said the paper's lead author, Aradhna Tripati, a UCLA assistant professor in the department of Earth and space sciences and the department of atmospheric and oceanic sciences.

"Carbon dioxide is a potent greenhouse gas, and geological observations that we now have for the last 20 million years lend strong support to the idea that carbon dioxide is an important agent for driving climate change throughout Earth's history," she said. . .

We know from basic thermodynamics the effect additional CO2 should have on temperatures. We know empirically that CO2 levels are high and still rising. It gets more complicated when you wade into it but 2 and 2 still generally equal 4.

Oh, and we measure global temperatures, too. The trends have pointed upwards.

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It may not be a scientific paper with loads of references but for the purpose of demonstration, I found this short video quite helpful:

Some more information:

New Scientist article that gives an overview

Climate change special: State of denial

Climate change; a guide for the perplexed, looking at major misconceptions and myths about climate change

I have no doubts that global warming is a reality based on the mountains of scientific evidence. Global warming is more than anything inconvenient to most people/industries to say the least, the benefits of faking it, I would think are comparatively low. But, let's for a moment assume it's not, would it really be that bad to cut pollution and switch to sustainable fuels?

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Is global warming really true? I forget exactly where I heard it, but I heard that global warming is just a way to scare us into things, and so governments can collect carbon taxes. The same person that said this also said that The Earth is just naturally going thru changes, just as all planets do. Whats your input about global warming? I don't know what exactly to believe because I don't trust the government as far as i can throw it. I wouldn't put it passed them.

The planet is undeniably heating up, that is a fact. Every major scientific institution in the world has come to the same conclusion about the cause of this and we are that cause.

Atmospheric CO2 has risen by 25% in the last 40 years.

We have destroyed a lot of rainforest resulting in a loss of carbon sinks.

We have polluted our oceans resulting in massive phytoplankton die off (the number 1 carbon sink and oxygen producer).

We have been exponentially increasing CO2 output (a proven greenhouse gas) since the early 1800's

Ecological responses to recent climate change

Widespread amphibian extinctions from epidemic disease driven by global warming

Acceleration of global warming due to carbon-cycle feedbacks in a coupled climate model

NSIDC:2008 Year-in-Review for the Arctic

Attribution of polar warming to human influence

Recent oppositely directed trends in solar

climate forcings and the global mean surface

air temperature

Antarctic ice shelf 'hanging by a thread'

Even Antarctica is now feeling the heat of climate change

Europe to feel the heat of climate change

Climate change: A guide for the perplexed

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Is global warming really true? I forget exactly where I heard it, but I heard that global warming is just a way to scare us into things, and so governments can collect carbon taxes. The same person that said this also said that The Earth is just naturally going thru changes, just as all planets do. Whats your input about global warming? I don't know what exactly to believe because I don't trust the government as far as i can throw it. I wouldn't put it passed them.

It is true the earth is heating up, but its not heating up evenly, that's why some parts are warming while others are cooling. i always had the impression Co2 was evenly spread round the globe. a blanket effect with temperatures rising equally across the globe, but its not.

that's the reason for the change in name from Global Warming to Climate change, it makes it easier to explain for example: why last year China had its coldest winter for one hundred years.

It is not proven C02 is the main cause of the warming. but it does seem likely.

undoubtedly governments are using climate change to generate revenue through taxation. how do we know this, because its already started.

i've said this before, why is it that people who provide links to scientific/articles papers etc.... from experts. yet they never post links to scientific papers from Experts who question climate change. its as if no experts exist if they are skeptics of climate change.

it would be nice for matt and cetacea etc... to provide such links to give a balanced view, with the same energy they do for the proponents side.

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it would be nice for matt and cetacea etc... to provide such links to give a balanced view, with the same energy they do for the proponents side.

If I found contrary evidence that is remotely convincing or worth considering, I will post it but I don't see the point in posting things that have been disproven or are not widely accepted and confirmed by the scientific community, I leave the posting of misconceptions and myths to the climate change sceptics :tu:

If of interest,however, the articles posted mention (and debunk for the most part) the arguments of the other side but can be looked into further if desired. That is what google is for.

Edited by Cetacea
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If I found contrary evidence that is remotely convincing or worth considering, I will post it but I don't see the point in posting things that have been disproven or are not widely accepted and confirmed by the scientific community, I leave the posting of misconceptions and myths to the climate change sceptics :tu:

If of interest,however, the articles posted mention (and debunk for the most part) the arguments of the other side but can be looked into further if desired. That is what google is for.

There must be experts out their who have been carrying out work which raises questions which cannot be ignored. which are not misconceptions or myths. Science is never one sided. yet that is the impression given.

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There must be experts out their who have been carrying out work which raises questions which cannot be ignored. which are not misconceptions or myths. Science is never one sided. yet that is the impression given.

Actually lots of issues in science are one sided. I have not seen good evidence to show that these effects are natural. Most of the sources against do themselves no good at all in fact as they nearly all out right lie or deliberately misrepresent points.

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I agree with Amanda89. There is such a thing as 'global warming' going on, but the actions of mankind have not had anything to do with it and there is nothing we can do about it. It's just another phony 'crisis' dreamed up by the govt to give people something to worry about so they won't look too closely at what they're pulling today.

KennyB

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I agree with Amanda89. There is such a thing as 'global warming' going on, but the actions of mankind have not had anything to do with it and there is nothing we can do about it. It's just another phony 'crisis' dreamed up by the govt to give people something to worry about so they won't look too closely at what they're pulling today.

KennyB

Yeah, and you can stick you head in the sand and ignore all the evidence, as it is 100% conclusive that the theory was developed by scientists? Did you actually bother to read the links?

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I agree with Amanda89. There is such a thing as 'global warming' going on, but the actions of mankind have not had anything to do with it and there is nothing we can do about it.

I don't understand this attitude at all, I'm afraid.

For the sake of argument, I'll allow that `global warming' is completely natural event unrelated to human activity. Why does that mean we can't (or shouldn't) do anything about it? It doesn't matter why `global warming' is occurring. Since it will cause previously fertile regions to turn to desert, large storms, and probably kill off lots of industrially useful biomass (for example as it gets warmer pine beetles are wiping out vast areas of valuable softwood forests in northern areas), it is a `bad thing' for people - so why shouldn't we try to `fix' it?

I mean if you learned that an asteroid was on a collision course for earth, would you say `it is a natural event and there is nothing we can do about it' or would you demand that global space agencies start working on a method to divert or destroy the asteroid?

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It is true the earth is heating up, but its not heating up evenly, that's why some parts are warming while others are cooling. i always had the impression Co2 was evenly spread round the globe. a blanket effect with temperatures rising equally across the globe, but its not.

Even if CO2 was evenly spread around the globe, it would be completely irrelevant. CO2 is not the only factor which affects temperature.

that's the reason for the change in name from Global Warming to Climate change, it makes it easier to explain for example: why last year China had its coldest winter for one hundred years.

It's called GLOBAL WARMING for a reason.

It is not proven C02 is the main cause of the warming. but it does seem likely.

It is not possible to prove the cause of anything. Ever. It is not possible to prove that matter affects gravity. It is never possible to prove a correlation even with causation.

i've said this before, why is it that people who provide links to scientific/articles papers etc.... from experts. yet they never post links to scientific papers from Experts who question climate change.

This is because, quite frankly, they don't exist.

A 2004 article by geologist and historian of science Naomi Oreskes summarized a study of the scientific literature on climate change.[87] The essay concluded that there is a scientific consensus on the reality of anthropogenic climate change. The author analyzed 928 abstracts of papers from refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, listed with the keywords "global climate change". Oreskes divided the abstracts into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. 75% of the abstracts were placed in the first three categories, thus either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, thus taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change; none of the abstracts disagreed with the consensus position, which the author found to be "remarkable". According to the report, "authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point."

Naomi Oreskes (December 3, 2004 (Erratum January 21, 2005)). "Beyond the Ivory Tower: The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change" (PDF). Science 306 (5702): 1686. doi:10.1126/science.1103618. (see also for an exchange of letters to Science)

its as if no experts exist if they are skeptics of climate change.

There are experts who disagree with climate change. However, there are no papers which are peer-reviewed by several scientists which are good AND are skeptical of climate change.

it would be nice for matt and cetacea etc... to provide such links to give a balanced view, with the same energy they do for the proponents side.

Because, quite frankly, the research doesn't exist. There is no research done and published in a serious peer review journal that contradicts climate change.

-SQLserver

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I don't understand this attitude at all, I'm afraid.

For the sake of argument, I'll allow that `global warming' is completely natural event unrelated to human activity. Why does that mean we can't (or shouldn't) do anything about it? It doesn't matter why `global warming' is occurring. Since it will cause previously fertile regions to turn to desert, large storms, and probably kill off lots of industrially useful biomass (for example as it gets warmer pine beetles are wiping out vast areas of valuable softwood forests in northern areas), it is a `bad thing' for people - so why shouldn't we try to `fix' it?

I mean if you learned that an asteroid was on a collision course for earth, would you say `it is a natural event and there is nothing we can do about it' or would you demand that global space agencies start working on a method to divert or destroy the asteroid?

i'll agree with most of that. i've always said we should cut pollution and live a more sustainable life. but the way "global warming" is being sold to us, i ain't buying it.

IF the government's for instance wanted to cut C02 levels with an urgency then why don't they for one example in the UK install solar panels on every home, all 35 million. its easy and cheap to do.

why isnt there an emergency building program of wind turbines?. the UK needs 300,000 we have 2,000. and will only have 10,000 by 2050. you know what i mean. actions speak louder than words. they can find billions for the banks and next to nothing to "save the world" it makes you think.

Then just think, since the dawn of the earth, Over 99% of species that ever lived are now extinct. the odds are not in our favour. so while we are here lets enjoy it.

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IF the government's for instance wanted to cut C02 levels with an urgency then why don't they for one example in the UK install solar panels on every home, all 35 million. its easy and cheap to do.

Solar power isn't cheap.

A lot of people would already be using solar power of their own volition if it were cheap. This is the one of the first results on Google for solar panels, you got that much lying around? My family were considering going solar a while back, but the truth is it just ain't cost effective in this part of the world.

You'd be better off turning the central heating down a notch and making sure your house is properly insulated.

Just thought I'd point that out.

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i'll agree with most of that. i've always said we should cut pollution and live a more sustainable life. but the way "global warming" is being sold to us, i ain't buying it.

IF the government's for instance wanted to cut C02 levels with an urgency then why don't they for one example in the UK install solar panels on every home, all 35 million. its easy and cheap to do.

why isnt there an emergency building program of wind turbines?. the UK needs 300,000 we have 2,000. and will only have 10,000 by 2050. you know what i mean. actions speak louder than words. they can find billions for the banks and next to nothing to "save the world" it makes you think.

Then just think, since the dawn of the earth, Over 99% of species that ever lived are now extinct. the odds are not in our favour. so while we are here lets enjoy it.

Yeah all those climatologists must be making so much money out of this, you know the actual source of the information on climate. :rolleyes:

Because the government don't want to lose money to major companies by making them spend money, that is the politics.

Yeah screw future generations, as long as we are ok.

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Last Time Carbon Dioxide Levels Were This High: 15 Million Years Ago, Scientists Report

so if its true that burning fossil fuels is causing global warming, animals from 15 million years ago drove cars? :blink:

that would be silly because earth's tempurature changes all the time through to natural causes, it either gets warmer or colder.

but think about this for a minute, since all the global warming talk started in britain, gas & electricity companies have raised their prices sky high and the government is charging carbon tax, as well as the cost of petrol has gone higher, but i dont think that has anything to do with it.

but think about all the money these people are making through global warming. and then the goverment using (in my opinion) the most useless way of gaining renewable energy, wind turbines. i reckon it would be much more efficient to use water power, britain is surrounded by water and then they use wind power instead... :blink:

so to summarise it... global warming is mostly a scam.

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so if its true that burning fossil fuels is causing global warming, animals from 15 million years ago drove cars? :blink:

That is bad logic, different environmental factors were around at that point that are not around now, you can't make a basic correlation like that and declare cause and effect.

that would be silly because earth's tempurature changes all the time through to natural causes, it either gets warmer or colder.

See above

but think about this for a minute, since all the global warming talk started in britain, gas & electricity companies have raised their prices sky high and the government is charging carbon tax, as well as the cost of petrol has gone higher, but i dont think that has anything to do with it.

No it didn't. That was because some evil turd of a woman privatised them and made them have a monopoly. Global warming has been in science since 1974 well before those major price rises, get your facts straight.

but think about all the money these people are making through global warming. and then the goverment using (in my opinion) the most useless way of gaining renewable energy, wind turbines. i reckon it would be much more efficient to use water power, britain is surrounded by water and then they use wind power instead... :blink:

It is not anyway near that simple. Wind turbines are more efficient and reliable and less damaging to marine life and habitats.

so to summarise it... global warming is mostly a scam.

No you just don't know what you are talking about, there is a difference.

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so if its true that burning fossil fuels is causing global warming, animals from 15 million years ago drove cars? that would be silly because earth's tempurature changes all the time through to natural causes, it either gets warmer or colder.

:blink:

It helps to read the science, see the 26 myths about climate change

Half-truth: It has been warmer in the past, so what's the big deal?

but think about all the money these people are making through global warming.

Yes those horribly overpaid scientists who are actually the source of the information....

so to summarise it... global warming is mostly a scam.

So to summarise it, you don't have any evidence but are actually just repeating misconceptions that have already been debunked by scientists?

Edited by Cetacea
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Solar power isn't cheap.A lot of people would already be using solar power of their own volition if it were cheap. This is the one of the first results on Google for solar panels, you got that much lying around? My family were considering going solar a while back, but the truth is it just ain't cost effective in this part of the world.You'd be better off turning the central heating down a notch and making sure your house is properly insulated.Just thought I'd point that out.

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Solar-electricity

Cost of solar panels £10,000 installed, which depending on the weather condition/time of year could generate between 20% and 60% of your electrical needs.

the government could easy bring that cost down by buying in bulk. and under a government scheme like that of the gas conversion in the 70's every home could be fitted. saving yet more energy.

Yeah all those climatologists must be making so much money out of this, you know the actual source of the information on climate. :rolleyes: Because the government don't want to lose money to major companies by making them spend money, that is the politics. Yeah screw future generations, as long as we are ok.

screw future generations, that's a terrible thing to say matt.

Edited by stevewinn
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screw future generations, that's a terrible thing to say matt.

That's... wildly inappropriate.

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sepulchrave, Just what do you think can be done about GW at this time. Do you think everybody on Earth should unplug their electricity, turn off their furnaces, shut down their cars. There is nothing anybody can do about it. If you want to do your part, shut your electricity off. It is kind of like an incoming asteroid. It either gets us or it don't. You might as well enjoy the time you've got left. You do realize they're talking about a long time in the future, not tomorrow, don't you? KennyB

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kennyb, that is a classic example of black and white thinking that we usually get from adolescents. in fact, many things can and are being done to mitigate global warming. converting to renewable non fossile fuels, carbon taxes, research into alternatives, more efficient devices, enforcement of existing laws, governement incentives are just a few. the cumulative effect of all of these actions is real and measureable.

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so if its true that burning fossil fuels is causing global warming, animals from 15 million years ago drove cars?

so if its true that the war in iraq is causing the USA to loose millions of dollars, in 1987 the us was in a war in iraq?

I hope you see the flaw in your logic now.

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sepulchrave, Just what do you think can be done about GW at this time. Do you think everybody on Earth should unplug their electricity, turn off their furnaces, shut down their cars. There is nothing anybody can do about it. If you want to do your part, shut your electricity off.

That is a bit drastic. If someone has a problem with obesity, would you only offer the options of `stop eating entirely' or `just accept being fat'?

To combat global warming we could (to name but a few):

  1. Increase the mandatory mileage standards for all new cars.
  2. Require all new asphalt surfaces and rooftops are a light colour.
  3. Actually legitimately crack down on breaches of government regulations on pollution.
  4. Add additional taxes to corporations and businesses which incorporate projected long-term costs of cleaning up the pollution (the nuclear industry has to do this, why not the coal and oil industries?).
  5. Add mandatory increases in parking fees or add tolls for driving in downtown areas, use money to improve public transportation.
  6. Ban personal motor vehicles outright from dense downtown areas.
  7. Require all new houses adhere to mandatory levels of thermal insulation.
  8. Add a seasonal tax to residential electricity during the summer to promote people turning their air conditioners off.
  9. Increase tax incentives for pursuing renewable energy and green technologies.

It is kind of like an incoming asteroid. It either gets us or it don't. You might as well enjoy the time you've got left.

I'm glad my grandparents didn't share that attitude. See the Nazis were kind of like an incoming asteroid. They would either conquer the world, or they wouldn't. So why run off to fight? You might as well enjoy the time you had left.

You do realize they're talking about a long time in the future, not tomorrow, don't you? KennyB

I hope it will happen that way, but I'm not completely convinced. Hot summers and warm winters helped mountain pine beetles wipe out 145 000 km2 of forest in British Columbia alone between 2006 and 2008 (to compare, England is about 130 400 km2).

So global temperatures rising X amount? Yeah, that will probably take time. Some local event reaching a tipping point and ravaging an area where you live? That could happen next year. Start trying to fix the problem now.

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From the analysis of the bubbles of air trapped in ice cores taken from the Greenland icecap that are up to 500,000 years old it has been shown that the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere and the CO2 content has followed a regular 100,000 year cycle of change with the CO2 content and temperature closely linked and following the same graph line. Within this regular cycle there are some recently discovered very short periods of approximately only a few hundred years duration when temperatures rise dramatically by 8 degrees centigrade above the slower rises of up to 7 degrees centigrade. This gives a total range of 15 degrees centigrade from peak to trough. These records show natural processes at work before the impact of man's activities. We are currently in the lower temperature part of the cycle.

http://www.hydrogen.co.uk/h2_now/journal/articles/1_global_warming.htm

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