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Ancient Aliens

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#196    Oniomancer

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:24 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 November 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

If you are asking me I'll tell you.  The thing is that other people are already accusing me of trying to derail the thread.

So let's be clear I'm responding to your query.

I have done all the work I need to do on this topic.  I have the images and the facts that I need to make my own informed decisions.

1) The stones are vitrified.  Implying heat or molecular alteration.  The sheen on the stones indicates this.
2) The stones have pock marks where something made an impression as though the stones were in a clay like state.  Also they show smoothing marks similar to those made by a plasterers trowel.
3) From dismantled walls we see indications that  upper stones sank into the lower stones.  This indicates that the stones were soft at the time of assembly.
4) The small holes drilled into andesite show vitrification inside.  Something burned into them.  It was no copper pipe drill.

1. No proof of vitrification. Only shiny stones and one inconclusive test from one spot of a different stone type than the primaries.

2. Indentations which are assumed to be impressed because of their soft edges but could've been carved in any number of ways.

3. More of the same indentations which have been demonstrated as carvable by hand means.

4. More shiny rocks. Shiny rocks alone do not vitrification make.

And that as they say is that.

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#197    Rlyeh

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:49 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 November 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Vivaldi worked in a girls orphanage and wrote over 600 concertos.  A group of historians visit the attic in the school where he worked and find an undiscovered Baroque concerto.  In 3 movements, with Vivaldi's characteristic style of tempo, cadence, harmony, and writing.

Do you really need evidence that it was written by him?
Do you understand that there is not only evidence of Vivaldi's existence but also evidence he composed music?
Now if there was no evidence of his existence and his compositions, then it would be very similar to the logic of your alien arguments.

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Do we really need someone else to prove to you that indigenous indian tribes didn't know how to soften rock when we cannot do it today?
You know that wasn't the question I asked you. Are you really going to start building straw men?

Edited by Rlyeh, 01 November 2013 - 04:57 PM.


#198    zoser

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 01 November 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Do you understand that there is not only evidence of Vivaldi's existence but also evidence he composed music?
Now if there was no evidence of his existence and his compositions, then it would be very similar to the logic of your alien arguments.

You know that wasn't the question I asked you. Are you really going to start building straw men?

Knowing that the ancient world is littered with statues, Icons, legends, and art all depicting non humanoid life forms that we are supposed to believe that they never came here?

How do you make that out?

Isn't that believing what you want to believe?

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#199    zoser

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 01 November 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

1. No proof of vitrification. Only shiny stones and one inconclusive test from one spot of a different stone type than the primaries.

2. Indentations which are assumed to be impressed because of their soft edges but could've been carved in any number of ways.

3. More of the same indentations which have been demonstrated as carvable by hand means.

4. More shiny rocks. Shiny rocks alone do not vitrification make.

And that as they say is that.

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Does that mean that want me to drop the subject?  I did say I would honour that.

Edited by zoser, 01 November 2013 - 07:56 PM.

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#200    Myles

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:05 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 November 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Knowing that the ancient world is littered with statues, Icons, legends, and art all depicting non humanoid life forms that we are supposed to believe that they never came here?

How do you make that out?

Isn't that believing what you want to believe?

I've seen many statues of just hands.  Big giant hands.    I in no way believe that hands used to roam the earth.    I've also seen a 30ft tall Superman statue.   I don't believe Superman was a real living being.


#201    zoser

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:10 PM

View PostMyles, on 01 November 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I've seen many statues of just hands.  Big giant hands. I in no way believe that hands used to roam the earth. I've also seen a 30ft tall Superman statue.   I don't believe Superman was a real living being.

Terrible argument Myles.  

I've seen scores of pieces of art in one form or another depicting basically the same idea of humanoid beings that look distinctly non planetary.  How many statues of giant hands have you seen?

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#202    seeder

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:21 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 November 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Terrible argument Myles.  

I've seen scores of pieces of art in one form or another depicting basically the same idea of humanoid beings that look distinctly non planetary.

And thats because he works at the British Museum - (sweeping up) - :lol: inbetween being online 24/7



zoser your inputs are not inline with this thread, this is about the AA series, not the individual cases.


.

Edited by seeder, 01 November 2013 - 08:23 PM.

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#203    kmt_sesh

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:23 AM

I've been checking in but haven't had much time to post. As far as zoser's motivations, it's the same stuff he's posted elsewhere at UM, and while it's not always clear what precisely zoser is trying to establish, I haven't really seen anything (yet) that I would classify as hijacking the thread. Again, it depends on what posters like zoser are trying to say, but in recent posts he's been leaning toward aliens. That is in line with this thread, as are some of the topics zoser has brought up (I've seen some of the same stuff mentioned on Ancient Aliens).

For everyone concerned, and I do understand your concern, if you feel there is a problem such as thread derailment, please do not discuss it publicly in the thread: issue a Report on it.

Thanks.

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#204    kmt_sesh

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:52 AM

That out of the way, fringe proponents share many characteristics. One is a lack of familiarity with respected orthodox research, which is a decided handicap because it leads a person automatically to assume the unrealistic and to become prey to things like Ancient Aliens. Going hand in hand with this is a refusal even to try to explore respected research; fringe proponents often deride us orthodox posters for not keeping "an open mind" or not "thinking outside the box," and yet they've rarely bothered to delve into the research conducted by people who've actually worked and excavated at ancient sites, spent countless hours in laboratories analyzing archaeological finds, and countless more hours adhering to rigid research protocols in the reporting and publishing of their finds.

I don't get it. But that's me. I prefer science and research to TV shows and wacky websites put together by alien conspiracists. The people behind these TV shows and websites are not obligated to follow any protocols and nearly always flee from anything even remotely similar to a peer-review environment. In other words, they are free to say or write anything they want, regardless of authentic corroboration or oversight. I cannot imagine how any intelligent and reasoning person would find such a thing reliable. This is where I come from, and this is why I tend to get a little aggressive about the whole silly alien thing.

I highly encourage anyone who may have missed it to go back and visit seeder's Post 168. I for one thank him for taking the time to put that together, with all of its useful links (thanks, seeder!). The average fringe proponent is likely to brush it aside as unimportant, but that is typical of the fringe.

A good example from seeder's post is the link to Puma Punku, an ancient site often misrepresented by the fringe and which often appears on Ancient Aliens. Were we to listen only to fringe venues, we would have an exceedingly poor and uninformed understanding of this ancient place. We are often told the stones there were granite and diorite, and yet the vast majority of the masonry is red sandstone. Any properly assembled critique or report on Puma Punku will relay this fact, which is why I think it's critical to turn to professional research and not one's television set. Sandstone was favored by many ancient cultures because it's easily worked, by anyone with a stone-age or bronze-age technology. Also at the site is andesite, which is indeed a hard stone but hardly impossible to work with ancient technologies.

We are told ancient man could not have accomplished such engineering feats, so therefore it must have been aliens. To me this demonstrates perhaps a healthy imagination but, in the negative, a clear lack of ability in critical-thinking skills. And this is what we get from Ancient Aliens: ancient man was too primitive and unintelligent to build such things. This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Ancient people unquestionably accomplished these things because they, like us, were human beings, and human beings are by nature highly intelligent problem solvers.

We needn't turn to aliens when an abundance of archaeological facts can provide answers. Do we have all the answers? No, and likely we never will. But this ought not give us license to "answer" the questions with aliens. I'll add something I've always got a chuckle out of. We are expected to believe that a super-advanced race of aliens traveled the depths of space to travel to our little blue world to teach our ancient ancestors...to build with stone.

Again, critical thinking. It's damn helpful.

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On a side note, I for one can't say if zoser has any formal affiliation with the British Museum. Anything is possible. But I can say that at the pair of museums with which I'm affiliated in Chicago, we've had our share of volunteers and other personnel who've gone on to espouse unorthodox, bizarre, and disconcerting beliefs. When that happens (and it's rare, to be honest), that person is promptly asked to leave.

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#205    jaylemurph

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 05:53 AM

View Postzoser, on 01 November 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Knowing that the ancient world is littered with statues, Icons, legends, and art all depicting non humanoid life forms that we are supposed to believe that they never came here?

How do you make that out?

Isn't that believing what you want to believe?

I'd reckon (sorry kmt, I guess I'm doing a plumb lot of that recently) most people here do not, in fact, know that to be the case. In fact, I reckon you don't /know/ that to be the case, either: you believe this. As I've often pointed out before, belief is completely independent of fact, and it's dangerous and unproductive to to confuse the two. Not that that stops many people...

The deciding factor in any such discussion is not what you, or me, or anybody with anything other than a passing knowledge of Greco-Roman (or any other ancient culture) art thinks. What matters are the opinions of people who have taken the time and expended the energy to be cognizant of the conventions and history of ancient art, who understand the framework these art pieces were created in and meant to be understood in. If you don't know these -- and you don't really show any sign you do -- you really have no call to be telling anyone (including yourself) what these pieces /are/ or /mean/.

And it's telling that not one. single. art historian has ever suggested an extraterrestial model for any ancient god or depiction.

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#206    zoser

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:32 AM

View PostMyles, on 01 November 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I've seen many statues of just hands.  Big giant hands. I in no way believe that hands used to roam the earth. I've also seen a 30ft tall Superman statue.   I don't believe Superman was a real living being.

There are far more unexplained images of non-terrestrial humoids in ancient cultures.

I honestly don't think your argument is going anywhere.

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#207    zoser

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:42 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 02 November 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

I'd reckon (sorry kmt, I guess I'm doing a plumb lot of that recently) most people here do not, in fact, know that to be the case. In fact, I reckon you don't /know/ that to be the case, either: you believe this. As I've often pointed out before, belief is completely independent of fact, and it's dangerous and unproductive to to confuse the two. Not that that stops many people...

The deciding factor in any such discussion is not what you, or me, or anybody with anything other than a passing knowledge of Greco-Roman (or any other ancient culture) art thinks. What matters are the opinions of people who have taken the time and expended the energy to be cognizant of the conventions and history of ancient art, who understand the framework these art pieces were created in and meant to be understood in. If you don't know these -- and you don't really show any sign you do -- you really have no call to be telling anyone (including yourself) what these pieces /are/ or /mean/.

And it's telling that not one. single. art historian has ever suggested an extraterrestial model for any ancient god or depiction.

--Jaylemurph

I think it's very simple Jay.  It's so called scientific people that complicate matters.

They had no cameras.  Statues, art, and folklore was how they recorded what they saw and experienced.  

The theory is very well supported in terms of artifacts that depict these humanoids, and in terms of what they achieved.  Notably the stonework.  There are just too many coincidences for it all to be attributed to some other reason such as their imagination.  men with spacesuits etc.

For many people including myself the case for AA is right there.

Relics of ancient space ships are not necessary as proof.

Edited by zoser, 02 November 2013 - 08:43 AM.

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#208    zoser

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:45 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 02 November 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:


On a side note, I for one can't say if zoser has any formal affiliation with the British Museum. Anything is possible. But I can say that at the pair of museums with which I'm affiliated in Chicago, we've had our share of volunteers and other personnel who've gone on to espouse unorthodox, bizarre, and disconcerting beliefs. When that happens (and it's rare, to be honest), that person is promptly asked to leave.



Isn't that prejudice?

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#209    zoser

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:50 AM

View Postseeder, on 01 November 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

And thats because he works at the British Museum - (sweeping up) - :lol: inbetween being online 24/7


Lol.  I happen to be on holdiay this week.

View Postseeder, on 01 November 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

zoser your inputs are not inline with this thread, this is about the AA series, not the individual cases.


If you were awake you would notice that my last few posts are discussing the matter in general terms.  I have not posted any images of specific stones or artifacts.

Edited by zoser, 02 November 2013 - 08:51 AM.

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#210    zoser

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:56 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 02 November 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I've been checking in but haven't had much time to post. As far as zoser's motivations, it's the same stuff he's posted elsewhere at UM, and while it's not always clear what precisely zoser is trying to establish, I haven't really seen anything (yet) that I would classify as hijacking the thread. Again, it depends on what posters like zoser are trying to say, but in recent posts he's been leaning toward aliens. That is in line with this thread, as are some of the topics zoser has brought up (I've seen some of the same stuff mentioned on Ancient Aliens).

For everyone concerned, and I do understand your concern, if you feel there is a problem such as thread derailment, please do not discuss it publicly in the thread: issue a Report on it.

Thanks.

I only have one as far as this thread is concerned.  To argue the case that the ancient artifacts of the famous sites around the world were unachievable with the technology they were supposed to have possessed and therefore that the AA hypothesis is valid and well supported.  Nothing else.

Edited by zoser, 02 November 2013 - 08:56 AM.

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