144 replies to this topic

[and then]

I believe you, on 31 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Thank you for accepting my view as valid even if you do not fully recognize it, if you did you would know I am against bullies and this is what Israel seems like to me. I know your response that they are surrounded by enemies on the edge of destruction, I disagree, but that response does not recognize a bully is a bully regardless of reasons. The way they harm others does not make me and others feel good. It is not justified. My God does not justify that.

Keep in mind even if you stated my view is a secular one, I am a Christian and worldwide I would guess that more Christians adopt the secular view, as you labeled it, and not the fundamentalist view.

You can label those who do not feel good about Israeli agression as "Israel haters" but that is not exactly accurate and a gross generalization. Some are "agression haters" period.

I used to believe in the prophecies in the same manner as you, I know your view, sadly you do not recognize mine but thanks again for at least stating it was valid even as I know the fundamentalist view is diminishing and I have no issues with further margianalizing it because our world will be more stable when it no longer has cache, soon.

For me God's awesome power is in helping others. When it is unleashed humanity is healed. This includes Palestinians and Israelis.

Your view is different and is about destruction of others.

It would seem to me that throughout the history of Christianity more Christians have seen God as a force of stablization not destruction and the the fundamnetalist view regarding prophecies is a fairly recent innovation and it won't last long. I mean Israel will have to make peace with her neighbors, nothing is going to happen horribly, and people will move on knowing prophecies as politicized and interpreted by fundamentalist were bunk.

Then we indeed disagree but I appreciate you being civil about it.  Thanks.

[and then]

I believe you, on 31 January 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Assad knows how the script ends, any leader from Milosevic to Saddam who thumb their nose at the globalists and demand their sovereignity instead of taking orders from UN and NATO have their nations destabalized and power transfered to more agreeable leaders.

Assad could very well use this opportunity to attack Israel and draw in others in the region into a larger conflict as a last ditch effort to hold onto his own personal power amidst the chaos.

The chaos is the only thing that could disrupt the script where leaders who don't tow the "internationalist" line are removed in long order, a few sanctions, a few bombings, then send in the peace keepers.

Sovereignity no longer exists, I am not saying it is a bad or good thing, I am just saying it is. Assad can see the writing on the wall. He should just retire in Russia, I would.

  Imagine if he were to launch a salvo of chemical tipped scuds at Israeli cities in the north.  Death toll from an attack where saturation of an area was accomplished could be in the tens of thousands.  In such a case how do you think Israel should respond?  Keep in mind that "turnaround" for readying to fire a second or third salvo could be counted in minutes.

[AsteroidX]

If we take care of our world and the people in it on the  What If principle were doomed.

Edited by AsteroidX, 01 February 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[and then]

AsteroidX, on 01 February 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

If we take care of our world and the people in it on the  What If principle were doomed.

I don't understand?  I'm not suggesting anything pre- emptive.  And the scenario I just mentioned is all too possible.  In fact I spoke of it here a year ago when this all started.  Assad is either insane or evil, maybe both.  He has proven it for 2 years.  If he, in the end, sees them coming for him as they did Gaddafi do you think he would hesitate to have his Alawite allies launch such an attack?  He even SAID he would do it - shortly after the civil war began.

[AsteroidX]

was just a general statement not meant at you directly. The lets react to the "what if" scenario can be applied to many things going on around us.

[Zaphod222]

Helen of Annoy, on 31 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Putting that freak into any other context than the only context there was - ethnic cleansing of territories he wanted to assimilate into Greater Serbia and rule over them -  is insulting to his victims. And to me personally.

Reality check: After the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Serbs were on the receiving end of most ethnic cleansing going on. Do the Krajina, Kosovo, and Bosnia ring any bells at all? It is pretty hypocritical to single out Milosevic on one hand and help the KLA on the other.

Helen of Annoy, on 31 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

One thing I agree with, Assad should join Milosevics in Russia, since they are apparently willing to house various failed führers and their offspring.

Reality check: Under the secular Assad regime, the Christian, Jewish, Druze and Shiite minorities in Syria have equal rights and are not harrassed. Are you telling us that will be same once the Muslim Brotherhood/Al Quaeda "freedom fighters" that our governments are so eager to assist, take over?

Really? Can you claim that with a straigh face?

Edited by Zaphod222, 01 February 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Zaphod222]

ExpandMyMind, on 31 January 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

This just looks like Israel are trying other means to go to war with Iran. With Iran and Syria's mutual defence treaty, Iran are legally obligated to come to the aid of Syria. Israel would finally have the war they so desperately seek.

Yeah, right. Israel, with all of its barely 7 million people squeezed on 10,000 sqkm, desperately needs to get into a war with 70 million Iranians on 1.700.000 sqkm, with the friendly territories of Syria and Iraq in between. Really???

And by the way, when is the last time that israel`s leaders wowed to "wipe the dirty bacteria" of Iran "off the map?" Then ask your friend Ahmedinejad....

Do you and other people who spout these islamist talking points ever stop to think before typing?

[ExpandMyMind]

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Yeah, right. Israel, with all of its barely 7 million people squeezed on 10,000 sqkm, desperately needs to get into a war with 70 million Iranians on 1.700.000 sqkm, with the friendly territories of Syria and Iraq in between. Really???

And by the way, when is the last time that israel`s leaders wowed to "wipe the dirty bacteria" of Iran "off the map?" Then ask your friend Ahmedinejad....

Do you and other people who spout these islamist talking points ever stop to think before typing?

Israel has been calling for the destruction of Iran since the 90s. Yes, it wants war. Everyone knows it wants war. It openly states it wants war (or for the U.S. to do its dirty-work). Are you seriously trying to deny they want to go to war with Iran (again, with the help of the U.S.)?

And what does the amount of people have to do with military strength? It is barely even a factor in modern warfare.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 01 February 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Reality check: After the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Serbs were on the receiving end of most ethnic cleansing going on. Do the Krajina, Kosovo, and Bosnia ring any bells at all? It is pretty hypocritical to single out Milosevic on one hand and help the KLA on the other.

Reality check, indeed... here comes one, just for you:

After the breakup of ex-Yugoslavia, and it broke because of Milosevic usurping power, sending his chetnik (fascist paramilitary units) to stage “protests” (let other nations know they will be exterminated if they don’t accept serbification). There was no Yugoslavia from that point on, only Greater Serbia trying to scare or kill any non-Serbs.
Since ex-Yugoslavia was FEDERATION, all CONSTITUTIVE Republics had – as I said - constitutional right to exist, in or out of union. Serbs had their rights guaranteed like any other nations, but they didn’t want equal rights, they wanted their Serbian rights fortified and forced on others.
Since chetniks (fascist Serbian paramilitary) and JNA (Jugoslavenska narodna armija, seized illegally by Serbian leadership and used against any non-Serbian ex-Yu nations) started attacking and ethnically cleansing first Croatia then Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was most natural to expect resistance and self-defence.
After Croatia successfully resisted Serbian aggression, ethnic Serbs from Croatia were organized and in some cases physically forced to leave Croatia with retreating aggressor Serbian army and illegal chetnik units. Documents exist from which it is clear without any shade of doubt that it was Serbian leadership (Martić and co.) that commanded “general evacuation”. Etc.  
All Serbs are free to come back to their homes in Croatia, even those who fought against us but were given very general pardon. Only the proven, worst war criminals are not allowed to return but are wanted by our courts. Like “Kapetan Dragan”, who used to pose with human skulls back in the 1990s and today is still sitting in Australian jail, crying he didn’t do anything, begging Australia doesn’t extradite his sorry cowardly ass... *vomits*

Do Vukovar, Ilok, Osijek, Pakrac, Sisak, Kostajnica, Karlovac, Knin, Zadarsko zaleđe, Dubrovnik, ring any bells to you?
Who was engaging artillery, aviation and even old Russian earth-to-earth ballistic projectiles against me personally?
How many Croatian artillery grenades exploded on Serbian soil? None.
How many Serbian grenades exploded on my soil? Countless.

Bosnia... how dare you mention Bosnia, after whole world has heard of Srebrenica massacre and siege of Sarajevo?
Decent Serbs were murdered along with their non-Serbian neighbours too, in Sarajevo turned into killing playgrounds for sick “general” Mladic and his ghouls.
Follow Mladic’s trial if you don’t know what you are talking about. If you do know, then shame on you.

What no one is accused of, so there’s no trial, is ethnically clean Vojvodina (former autonomous province of Serbia), from which Croats were simply tossed out and no one said a word. Vojvodina now has Serbian majority and it wasn’t even part of Serbia few decades ago.
Why don’t you bring that up?

Kosovo was Greater Serbian playground since end of WWII. Not to elaborate, this post is already too long.

So not only Milosevic must be singled out as the most destructive psychotic saboteur ever recorded in history of ex-Yu, he must be singled out as the key figure in Serbian ethnic cleansing project.  

Now I’m ready to get back on topic but I will keep an eye on these disgraceful attempts to whitewash Serbian fascist aggression from the 1990s.

Quote

Reality check: Under the secular Assad regime, the Christian, Jewish, Druze and Shiite minorities in Syria have equal rights and are not harrassed. Are you telling us that will be same once the Muslim Brotherhood/Al Quaeda "freedom fighters" that our governments are so eager to assist, take over?

Really? Can you claim that with a straigh face?

So, the majority must suffer a dictatorship because minorities had a deal with the dictator?
I don’t think so. It works the other way around:
Help the FSA, make it clear to them how important human rights are and how important it is for them, FSA, to secure existence for the minorities too. That’s the only logical way that will give lasting result for everyone instead of deals for some. Exclusive rights are never a good idea. As you could have noticed by now, from ex-Yu example.

Will something be same or not, better or worse, is in the hands of Syrians. It is their country and their right to pick their own leadership.
I can like or dislike their choice, but it is their choice.

Al Qaida, the contemporary bogeyman, is obviously a tool – obvious from seemingly contradictive actions they take in different countries.
So I’m not worried with Al Qaida puppet itself, I’m worried about strategy their financiers and true bosses are about to apply.   
And that is not decided in the Syrian field, even if Al-Q was influential among FSA, that is decided in the same offices from which crocodile tears are spilt for minorities.

I care about minorities, but their existence won’t be secured by asking majority to shut up and let obvious psychopath exterminate any opposition.

Yes, really.
Now you elaborate why shouldn’t I.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 01 February 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

I wonder what the left/liberal treehuggers of the Ustaše would think of the situation in Syria. Perhaps they sit in cafe with their Chetnik friends and discuss over countless cups of coffee into the late night, then make their way home arm in arm. Such nice people those Ustaše and Chetniks

[Helen of Annoy]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 01 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I wonder what the left/liberal treehuggers of the Ustaše would think of the situation in Syria. Perhaps they sit in cafe with their Chetnik friends and discuss over countless cups of coffee into the late night, then make their way home arm in arm. Such nice people those Ustaše and Chetniks

Thank you, Aten.
You see, there’s this horrible historic forgery attempt, being peddled lately by extreme nationalist Serbian circles – they wish to make Chetniks suddenly anti-fascists, which is, of course, impossible, since there are vast archives of photos of Chetniks kissing German butts in WWII, complete with Serbian “prince” Pavle riding in Mercedes with Hitler himself. How anti-fascist of him.
So it’s nice to hear you know Chetniks were fascist collaborators, much like Ustashe.
Their attempt to switch sides by the end of WWII was successful, unlike Ustashe attempt to switch sides and join the Allies. Ustashe were physically exterminated, Chetniks pardoned and incorporated into Tito's partisan units. Thanks to both Churchill and Stalin. And that was the beggining of ex-Yugoslavia's end.

Now, I obviously love to comb through WWII, but shouldn’t we go back to Syria?
There’s WWIII about to break out there, certainly that’s a good excuse to leave Serbian princes and their undying shame alone for a moment?

[and then]

Helen of Annoy, on 01 February 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Thank you, Aten.
You see, there’s this horrible historic forgery attempt, being peddled lately by extreme nationalist Serbian circles – they wish to make Chetniks suddenly anti-fascists, which is, of course, impossible, since there are vast archives of photos of Chetniks kissing German butts in WWII, complete with Serbian “prince” Pavle riding in Mercedes with Hitler himself. How anti-fascist of him.
So it’s nice to hear you know Chetniks were fascist collaborators, much like Ustashe.
Their attempt to switch sides by the end of WWII was successful, unlike Ustashe attempt to switch sides and join the Allies. Ustashe were physically exterminated, Chetniks pardoned and incorporated into Tito's partisan units. Thanks to both Churchill and Stalin. And that was the beggining of ex-Yugoslavia's end.

Now, I obviously love to comb through WWII, but shouldn’t we go back to Syria?
There’s WWIII about to break out there, certainly that’s a good excuse to leave Serbian princes and their undying shame alone for a moment?

Perhaps, Helen, but sometimes a history lesson is a valuable thing as well.  Thanks for sharing.

[shaddow134]

ExpandMyMind, on 01 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Israel has been calling for the destruction of Iran since the 90s. Yes, it wants war. Everyone knows it wants war. It openly states it wants war (or for the U.S. to do its dirty-work). Are you seriously trying to deny they want to go to war with Iran (again, with the help of the U.S.)?

And what does the amount of people have to do with military strength? It is barely even a factor in modern warfare.

Sometimes I  wonder that Isreal should just get it over and done with,but maybe shouldn't be too surprised if the Iranians don't turn out to be the expected walk over that Tel Aviv may be thinking.

[and then]

shaddow134, on 01 February 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Sometimes I  wonder that Isreal should just get it over and done with,but maybe shouldn't be too surprised if the Iranians don't turn out to be the expected walk over that Tel Aviv may be thinking.

Actually, Israel has one of the best intel groups around and has NEVER wanted to go it alone in what they consider a truly existential threat from a nutjob regime.  But since Oby is not going to help, Bibi finally admitted a couple days ago that Israel could severely damage Tehran's plans but only the US could make the damage enough to be worth the effort.  I don't believe the CT's about pipelines and takeovers and such.  But one has to be a bit of a dim bulb to just ignore the rhetoric and actions of the regime in Tehran over the past 3 decades.  A joint strike by Israel and the US - or just by the US and Iran's nuke facilities would be utterly ruined.  They would possess no navy of any kind and no airforce.  Any Republican Guards who were at home on the bases or who were clustered together densely would be enjoying their new time with virgins.  
On the other hand though..... Tel Aviv, Haifa and possibly even Jerusalem would be having thousands of funerals.  US embassies around the world as well as shops, bars, libraries and any other place Americans are known to congregate would become targets of opportunity for people who, while they've not declared war on anyone for a few hundred years, are pretty darned efficient at murder of innocents (practice makes perfect ) ... and then of course there would be the cells within the US that would be activated.  Nothing on the scale of 9-11 I think, but far more terrorizing due to the widespread randomness.  A mall here, an airliner there, a Lakers game.... you get the picture.  The Swiss cheese security we have would be really embarrassing for homeland security.  I can only imagine what freedoms they'd want next to promise us security.
No, I really don't think Israel wants war with Iran.  I KNOW America doesn't.  But we didn't want WWI or WWII either.

[and then]

UPDATE:
http://www.ynetnews....4339347,00.html

Russia is a bit peeved -maybe they lost a few scientists?