94 replies to this topic

[itsnotoutthere]

The debate has become so poisoned over the last two decades that unfortunately asking the people to pronounce on something of which they have virtually no understanding is not going to produce an informed decision or the best outcome.
Unfortunately in the case of the Irish vote it was similar situation, the population were hurting after the property bubble had just imploded and they were looking for someone to blame. There is still a prevailing attitude that the EU has imposed a terrible fate on the Irish nation, when in fact it lifted us out of abject poverty. The Irish people on mass caused the economic crisis we currently face and there is a desperate desire to find a scapegoat to blame for our own stupidity - the EU represents a perfect kicking boy for a nation in self imposed pain.





So presumably the Irish were completely 'clued up' on the second referendum?

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 26 January 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[shaddow134]

itsnotoutthere, on 26 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

The debate has become so poisoned over the last two decades that unfortunately asking the people to pronounce on something of which they have virtually no understanding is not going to produce an informed decision or the best outcome.
Unfortunately in the case of the Irish vote it was similar situation, the population were hurting after the property bubble had just imploded and they were looking for someone to blame. There is still a prevailing attitude that the EU has imposed a terrible fate on the Irish nation, when in fact it lifted us out of abject poverty. The Irish people on mass caused the economic crisis we currently face and there is a desperate desire to find a scapegoat to blame for our own stupidity - the EU represents a perfect kicking boy for a nation in self imposed pain.





So presumably the Irish were completely 'clued up' on the second referendum?

They would have kept going for a least Ten Years until they beat a Yes Vote out of the population.

Don't you just love the EEC,Democracy on their terms....

[Br Cornelius]

Queen in the North, on 26 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

So do the Conservatives have to win an overall majority next time around for this referendum to become an actual possibility?

Yes- so it ain't going to happen given the tanked economy.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

questionmark, on 26 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Let me put it drastically to you: The choice of small countries is either get together or douse their head in Vaseline and creep up the butt of India, China, Russia or the USA.

predicted Economies - 2050. seen it on the bloomberg channel

1 China.
2 USA.
3 India.
4 Japan.
5 Germany.
6 United Kingdom.
7 Brazil.
8 Mexico.
9 France.
10 Canada.

If as the experts predictions did come true, then it seems it would be more beneficial to explore trade, or closer ties with China, USA, India, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Canada. - Only two countries who are in the eurozone appear in the top ten. only a further two appear in the top 20 - Italy. 11th, and Spain 14th. - This is what the UK was saying. the EU needs to be more outward looking and reform is needed.

[questionmark]

stevewinn, on 27 January 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

predicted Economies - 2050. seen it on the bloomberg channel

1 China.
2 USA.
3 India.
4 Japan.
5 Germany.
6 United Kingdom.
7 Brazil.
8 Mexico.
9 France.
10 Canada.

If as the experts predictions did come true, then it seems it would be more beneficial to explore trade, or closer ties with China, USA, India, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Canada. - Only two countries who are in the eurozone appear in the top ten. only a further two appear in the top 20 - Italy. 11th, and Spain 14th. - This is what the UK was saying. the EU needs to be more outward looking and reform is needed.

In 2050 there won't be a Germany but a federated Europe... and either on place 1 or 2.

[stevewinn]

keithisco, on 26 January 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

NO.. it is quite simple "YES - if you wish to remain a member of the EU under these re-negotiated terms, or NO - if you do not wish to remain a member of the EU under these re-negotiated terms"

Nothiing to do with Federalism, or a Federated Union, nothing whatsoever to do with the Eurozone. None of these things were stated by Cameron, but already you are trying to insinuate these scare tactics into what will be a simple vote (BTW.. I do not believe there will be a vote no matter who wins the next election)

one or two of the big players in the EU said they wont negotiate. one of them being France only because they know we'd attack the agricultural policy they heavily depend on. so if fellow club members do not want to negotiate. then the vote must be NO. - as for the federation issue. jose manuel barosso in his 'state of the union address' said the EU must move towards a federation. to huge applause and approval from the EU parliament. - most people wouldn't have even heard this speech. so its right to make people aware at the time of voting, what the end game is for the EU. a federation. not scare tactics just a warning of what lies ahead. - its just like the people in 1973-75 they thought they were voting to remain in the ECC - European Economic Community - on trade and co-operation. not what they seen today of the EU. and bear in mind we'd only been EEC members for two years when they held the vote in 1975. lets this time leave the people in no doubt what they are voting for and were the EU is heading.

[stevewinn]

questionmark, on 27 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

In 2050 there won't be a Germany but a federated Europe... and either on place 1 or 2.

wow.

[keithisco]

stevewinn, on 27 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

one or two of the big players in the EU said they wont negotiate. one of them being France only because they know we'd attack the agricultural policy they heavily depend on. so if fellow club members do not want to negotiate. then the vote must be NO. - as for the federation issue. jose manuel barosso in his 'state of the union address' said the EU must move towards a federation. to huge applause and approval from the EU parliament. - most people wouldn't have even heard this speech. so its right to make people aware at the time of voting, what the end game is for the EU. a federation. not scare tactics just a warning of what lies ahead. - its just like the people in 1973-75 they thought they were voting to remain in the ECC - European Economic Community - on trade and co-operation. not what they seen today of the EU. and bear in mind we'd only been EEC members for two years when they held the vote in 1975. lets this time leave the people in no doubt what they are voting for and were the EU is heading.

You are right in that france will NOT negotiate at all, neither will Spain (if Fishing is involved) which means that the whole farce of a re-negotiation is simply moot. Cameron knows this, therefore i say again that there will be no referendum because there will not have been any re-negotiation.

When i voted to stay in the EEC (EU) I knew exactly what the long term aims were, including Federation of National States, as did most of my peers. We were not mis-led or tricked into voting one way or another.

[Render]

stevewinn, on 27 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

one or two of the big players in the EU said they wont negotiate.

and many more have stated the same.


Cameron has put himself in an impossible position.
On one hand he is against the EU and tries to please a certain percentage of the population by stating the UK has to leave the EU. On the other hand he mentioned that he is pro-negotiation. So he has to defend that program and therefore the UK's place in the EU.
He's in a lose-lose situation.

He's pleading to go out and stay in the EU at the same time, it's nuts. And im surprised many ppl don't even notice this paradox.

Edited by Render, 28 January 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[shaddow134]

stevewinn, on 27 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

one or two of the big players in the EU said they wont negotiate. one of them being France only because they know we'd attack the agricultural policy they heavily depend on. so if fellow club members do not want to negotiate. then the vote must be NO. - as for the federation issue. jose manuel barosso in his 'state of the union address' said the EU must move towards a federation. to huge applause and approval from the EU parliament. - most people wouldn't have even heard this speech. so its right to make people aware at the time of voting, what the end game is for the EU. a federation. not scare tactics just a warning of what lies ahead. - its just like the people in 1973-75 they thought they were voting to remain in the ECC - European Economic Community - on trade and co-operation. not what they seen today of the EU. and bear in mind we'd only been EEC members for two years when they held the vote in 1975. lets this time leave the people in no doubt what they are voting for and were the EU is heading.

We all know where the EEC is heading,the facade of a free and open Europe will dissolve before your very eyes.Your very future will be decided by some little jumped up Eurocrat in Brussels.Sit back and enjoy as law after ludicrous law is imposed on the UK from afar.

Well here is one who will never accept the EEC flag,unless i run out of toilet paper.

[TheLastLazyGun]

stevewinn, on 27 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

one of them being France only because they know we'd attack the agricultural policy they heavily depend on.

Yet the French see it as okay to attack Britain's financial sector and the City of London.

[TheLastLazyGun]

questionmark, on 27 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

In 2050 there won't be a Germany but a federated Europe... and either on place 1 or 2.

There may be a federated Europe by 2050 but Britain won't be a part of it and it will NOT be one of the top two economies in the world.

As I have mentioned elsewhere the EU's standing in the world as an economic power is waning and that will continue to happen.  Europe's negative demographics - a shrinking population which will ensure the EU will have a smaller population in 2015 than it has now - means that it will not be able to compete with the likes of China, India and the USA.  The USA will have a larger population than the whole of the EU by 2050.

It's time that Europhiles woke up and smelled the coffee.  They have to stop their delusion that the EU is to remain as one of the top two economies in the world.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 28 January 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[shaddow134]

TheLastLazyGun, on 28 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Yet the French see it as okay to attack Britain's financial sector and the City of London.

The French are still sulking because Britain never got its credit rating downgraded instead of them.

Christian Noyer spat his Dummy right out if i remember rightly..

[shaddow134]

TheLastLazyGun, on 28 January 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

There may be a federated Europe by 2050 but Britain won't be a part of it and it will NOT be one of the top two economies in the world.

As I have mentioned elsewhere the EU's standing in the world as an economic power is waning and that will continue to happen.  Europe's negative demographics - a shrinking population which will ensure the EU will have a smaller population in 2015 than it has now - means that it will not be able to compete with the likes of China, India and the USA.  The USA will have a larger population than the whole of the EU by 2050.

It's time that Europhiles woke up and smelled the coffee.  They have to stop their delusion that the EU is to remain as one of the top two economies in the world.

Considering China is expected to grow by 8% in 2013.

[TheLastLazyGun]

stevewinn, on 27 January 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

predicted Economies - 2050. seen it on the bloomberg channel

1 China.
2 USA.
3 India.
4 Japan.
5 Germany.
6 United Kingdom.
7 Brazil.
8 Mexico.
9 France.
10 Canada.

If as the experts predictions did come true, then it seems it would be more beneficial to explore trade, or closer ties with China, USA, India, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Canada. - Only two countries who are in the eurozone appear in the top ten. only a further two appear in the top 20 - Italy. 11th, and Spain 14th. - This is what the UK was saying. the EU needs to be more outward looking and reform is needed.

In December 2011, Brazil overtook the UK as the world's sixth largest economy.  The UK was pushed down to seventh.

However, just last month - December 2012 - the UK reclaimed the sixth spot from Brazil and is on course to overtake France either later this year as the world's fifth largest economy or in 2014.  The Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) has said that the UK economy will overtake France's as the economic effects of President Hollande’s 75pc tax policy and the difficulties of the euro drag France down.

Brazil will overtake the UK again in 2014.  BY the end of that year the UK will be the world's sixth largest economy and France will be the seventh.

The next decade will see the BRIC nations – Brazil, Russia, India, and China – cement their economic dominance as Europe suffers a gradual decline in standing (deluded Europhiles such as questionmark who see the EU as still being a great economic power as far in the future as 2050 take note)..

In 2022 Britain will have moved from the sixth largest economy, as it is now, to the eighth largest economy; France will be the ninth largest economy and Germany will have dropped to sixth.

CEBR expects India to overtake the UK by 2017 to become the largest economy in the Commonwealth and the end 2022 six places higher than today at the world’s fourth biggest.

Brazil will be fifth and Russia will have climbed two places to seventh. China will remain the world’s second biggest economy, but will have closed the gap on the US. At the moment it is 53pc as large as the US but by 2022 it will be 83pc as large.

http://www.telegraph...onomy-slot.html

The UK economy will also eventually overtake Germany which, unlike Britain, has a declining population (Britain will be Europe's largest country by 2050 with).  It is predicted that the UK will have Europe's largest economy by 2050.

Britain's superior economic standing relative to its European rivals will, I predict, be even greater if Britain's releases herself from the economic stranglehold and red tape of Brussels.

British economy will be biggest in Europe in four decades, say experts: http://www.dailymail...ay-experts.html

UK to have Europe's biggest population; Migration will force us ahead of Germany: http://www.dailymail...ny-says-UN.html

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 28 January 2013 - 04:33 PM.