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Why is Atheism related to Nihilism?


ambelamba

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Well, many years ago I did believe that. But I forgot why.

I read a LA Times article about rising number of non-religious people, families, and their offspring. And guess what, more than a few people seem to be upset about the trend.

Now I consider myself as an atheist, albeit not a hardcore one. Still, I can't fathom why people torture themselves by thinking that they are nothing without God.

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Well, many years ago I did believe that. But I forgot why.

I read a LA Times article about rising number of non-religious people, families, and their offspring. And guess what, more than a few people seem to be upset about the trend.

Now I consider myself as an atheist, albeit not a hardcore one. Still, I can't fathom why people torture themselves by thinking that they are nothing without God.

For a long, long, long, long time morality and "goodness" has been culturally linked to religious piety. Up until the last hundred years or so anyway. The majority of our population accepting that being a good person and believing in god are unrelated in any way is going to take time to accept. Most would rather moan about the rotting of our spirituality and the growing numbers of sinners that are going to hell.

I'm an Apatheist so I don't really care if a God exists or not, but if proof of one did appear I still wouldn't worship it. That would imply that I am giving up ownership of my soul.

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Well, many years ago I did believe that. But I forgot why.

I read a LA Times article about rising number of non-religious people, families, and their offspring. And guess what, more than a few people seem to be upset about the trend.

Now I consider myself as an atheist, albeit not a hardcore one. Still, I can't fathom why people torture themselves by thinking that they are nothing without God.

what is what they are trained to think , it is called brain washing .
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I'd agree that many see rejection of religion as rejection of morality. Which isn't true at all.

Quite possibly one reason would be the militant aggression and hatefulness of some atheist individuals, who come across as hating everything, even life itself.

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Quite possibly one reason would be the militant aggression and hatefulness of some atheist individuals, who come across as hating everything, even life itself.

But militant aggression is among many believers as well. :yes: I think, there is another problem. Many people get their opinion on the basis of other people's fictions. Both atheists and believers. What do occasionally use our own head.

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ambe

Still, I can't fathom why people torture themselves by thinking that they are nothing without God.

But that's not the whole story. At least in the Christian and Muslim versions, the supposed creator of the universe is occupied every moment of every day with attending to all the minutiae of each and every believer's life. (In the Jewish version, not so much. Their God's outlook is more collective.). In the Christian version, God killed himself, that's how concerned he was with the fate of each individual believer (In the Muslim version, Jesus beats the rap because God didn't want people to get any ideas about killing his prophets - people whom God REALLY occupied himself with).

So, the "torture" comes with compensations, a feeling of grandeur. And it's not like believers don't run stop signs, practice creative writing on their tax returns, read Playboy for the articles and short stories, or gamble on the Big Game (thereby saving Saru a bill for royalites if I had mentioned the trademarked name). New England by seven, BTW. And nobody will give a crap on February 2nd that the balls were flat, anymore than the officials on the field did last Sunday until somebody complained. (It's worth thinking about why one ball was regulation. Hint: it's no accident.) Speaking of the role that self-torture plays in decision making by the devout.

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I don't think it necessarily is related. Nonbelievers can still think their lives are meaningful. They're just honest in saying that they don't believe in deity because they haven't seen evidence of it. I think it's religious people who sort of impose that idea onto nonbelievers. They are often the ones who think that people cannot possibly have morals or meaning to their life without a belief in a god.

Edited by ChaosRose
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ambe

But that's not the whole story. At least in the Christian and Muslim versions, the supposed creator of the universe is occupied every moment of every day with attending to all the minutiae of each and every believer's life. (In the Jewish version, not so much. Their God's outlook is more collective.). In the Christian version, God killed himself, that's how concerned he was with the fate of each individual believer (In the Muslim version, Jesus beats the rap because God didn't want people to get any ideas about killing his prophets - people whom God REALLY occupied himself with).

So, the "torture" comes with compensations, a feeling of grandeur. And it's not like believers don't run stop signs, practice creative writing on their tax returns, read Playboy for the articles and short stories, or gamble on the Big Game (thereby saving Saru a bill for royalites if I had mentioned the trademarked name). New England by seven, BTW. And nobody will give a crap on February 2nd that the balls were flat, anymore than the officials on the field did last Sunday until somebody complained. (It's worth thinking about why one ball was regulation. Hint: it's no accident.) Speaking of the role that self-torture plays in decision making by the devout.

Cute how you snuck deflate-gate in there. ;)
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Not all atheists believe that life is meaningless, as I am certain the OP knows. Religious people only believe that to be the case because their entire lives revolve around their deity or deities. They can't imagine living without them.

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I read a LA Times article about rising number of non-religious people, families, and their offspring. And guess what, more than a few people seem to be upset about the trend.

Non-religious does not mean a non-belief in God though. It's true that the number of traditional religion adherents in Western countries have been shown to be in declined but that certainly doesn't mean these people have no spiritual, metaphysical or esoteric beliefs. In fact, I think it's more likely that more and more people are drawing from various sources imported from all over the world these days, in an ecclectic fashion, hence the rise in a belief such as reincarnation for instance.

Now I consider myself as an atheist, albeit not a hardcore one. Still, I can't fathom why people torture themselves by thinking that they are nothing without God.

Atheist militants (such as Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins) are telling us that the Universe sprang from nothing. That's it, end of the story. But the thing is, if existence comes from nothing, then we are ultimately nothing after our brief passage in existence. Blackness, void, emptiness, pointlessness and unawareness at that! If there is in fact something, a cause or many causes, a deeper reality then there is actually meaning. I think the word 'God' (or Gods) is often used in common language to encompass this possible cause(s) from which All of existence may actually originate from on a fundamental level.

if we set aside the various interpretations in religions, God(s), Creator(s), Deus, Metapysical progenitor, overarching structure are only terms used to describe a concept far greater than us. A concept that humanity, possibly due to it's own intrinsic limitations as a specy, simply can't wrap his head around.

As physicist Brian Greene points out, it's like teaching general relativity to a dog. Good luck! The dog can't help it, he has is own level of awareness and intelligence as a specy. Why should it be any different for us? There may be things all around us right now and we simply can't see them because of our limitations.

Do you think that human will ever have a full understanding of the nature of reality?:

http://www.worldscie...ture-of-reality Edited by sam_comm
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Guest Br Cornelius

I'd agree that many see rejection of religion as rejection of morality. Which isn't true at all.

Quite possibly one reason would be the militant aggression and hatefulness of some atheist individuals, who come across as hating everything, even life itself.

Care to give specific examples, because I think you are using caricatures to make a rhetorical point here.

I don't know of a single atheist who is hateful of even life itself.

Br Cornelius

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Guest Br Cornelius

I don't think it necessarily is related. Nonbelievers can still think their lives are meaningful. They're just honest in saying that they don't believe in deity because they haven't seen evidence of it. I think it's religious people who sort of impose that idea onto nonbelievers. They are often the ones who think that people cannot possibly have morals or meaning to their life without a belief in a god.

Most people haven't studied enough philosophy to understand that what they think is meaning is nothing of the sort - its compartmentalizing and categorizing of experience in order to create an internal narrative for their own actions. God and the meaning attached to it are simply a category bin which they have never really thought much about.

Br Cornelius

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People get too hung up on labels. It doesn't matter what you believe ultimately, as not a single person on this planet can prove or disprove the existence of a deity, no matter how much they claim otherwise.

Belief should be a personal experience. Some believe in spiritual wellbeing, some believe in 'goodness' in and of itself. Some believe in nature and balance. Some will only accept known science as a relevant guide. It doesn't matter what your motivations are, only your resulting actions and how they affect others. The only thing we know for certain is the life we are living right now, so making the most of it should be the highest goal.

Linking religion with 'goodness' is utter nonsense though. Every one of us has the capicity for good and evil (for want of a less theistic concept) within us, and every one of us ultimately chooses the path we take - albeit with much influence from the world around us. I'm not going to get into the nuts and bolts of equating religion to 'goodness'... pick up any history book or contemporary news story to find the truth in that.

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Atheism: Is the actual disbelief in any sort of monotheistic God, or any other Gods. A lack of religious dogma, or religious faith.

Nihilism: The belief that life has no intrinsic / inherent value (or) the belief that morals have no intrinsic / inherent value.

Atheism and Nihilism are compatible on certain philosophical levels, in terms of existential-awareness, and actual manifested existential 'nausea' or 'anxiety'.

In regards to their divorce, Atheism allows the belief that certain things have value, but on a more humanistic level. Just not an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent God.

Nihilism would reject these foundations, as they have no 'real' meaning. Nihilism is closer to Solipsism, the idea that only your mind exists, than it is Atheism.

Edited by Drayno
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Nihilism is closer to Solipsism, the idea that only your mind exists, than it is Atheism.

And yet wouldn't solipsism also be consider a sub set of atheism?

Care to give specific examples, because I think you are using caricatures to make a rhetorical point here.

I don't know of a single atheist who is hateful of even life itself.

Br Cornelius

What about godless murders, who kill for kicks? Maybe not hateful, but indifferent?

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And yet wouldn't solipsism also be consider a sub set of atheism?

What about godless murders, who kill for kicks? Maybe not hateful, but indifferent?

First point:

Quite possibly! I see your line of reasoning.

Imagine you believe everything, everyone, and everywhere is an aspect of your brain. Would you believe in God? Not necessarily. But not necessarily not.

Suppose the question: What created your mind, if your mind contains the world, yourself, and everyone else with it?

If someone believed in Solipsism, that doesn't discredit a possible belief in God. It doesn't encourage or hint Atheism, either.

It's a more Philosophical Carteasian-idea; think Rene Descartes who said "I think, therefore I am."

Or Plato's famous 'Allegory of the Cave'. It has more to do with problems of perception than God.

Good thought, though!

Second point:

Indifference presents an divorce from reality; the man who lives, but is not living within himself.

I would say a Nihilist would kill for no reason, because there would be no reason to kill, but also no reason not to kill.

Because of this, it would be 'easier' for them, for they would perceive the victim's life as having no 'value', nor would they 'value' the morals that stop murder.

An Atheist could also easily kill, but you could say their humanism, or whatever distorted view they have (not by virtue of being an Atheist of course), or motivation, leads to it.

There is a difference in how the two prioritize 'morality' in the case of a murder. A Nihilist has no priorities, nor believes in 'morality'.

An Atheist may kill within their adopted 'morality', whether in self-defense, or for whatever, and still feel guilt not because of fear of God, but because of the human experience.

Or they may not! It comes down to people.

Edited by Drayno
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Guest Br Cornelius
What about godless murders, who kill for kicks? Maybe not hateful, but indifferent?

Again your just resorting to hollow rhetoric.

There maybe murderers but I think you will find that their state of belief in God has little to do with their propensity to murder.

Br Cornelius

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What about godless murders, who kill for kicks? Maybe not hateful, but indifferent?

You mean like Dennis Rader (the BTK killer), who was a member of the Christ Lutheran Church and was elected president of the church council?

You need to take God out of the equation and start with neurobiology and psychopathology.

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Again your just resorting to hollow rhetoric.

There maybe murderers but I think you will find that their state of belief in God has little to do with their propensity to murder.

Br Cornelius

The point being that there ARE atheists who hate, maybe not due to their atheism, but no one is immune to individual haters.

Anyway, it can also be seen as Christians believing that Jesus/God is Life, and so hating of God is hating of Life in that psychology. Not that I'm embracing that psychology, I'm simply pointing out it exists.

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You mean like Dennis Rader (the BTK killer), who was a member of the Christ Lutheran Church and was elected president of the church council?

You need to take God out of the equation and start with neurobiology and psychopathology.

I didn't know we'd switched gears to prove there are Christian criminals. I thought we were discussing if there were any Atheist people who hate life? Did Mr Rader hate Life?

Your not going to like to hear it, but Evil loves to hide among the Good. Evil also will try to get into a place of leadership and trust when living among the Good. Just because Mr Rader went to church and was part of organizations of the church does not mean he was an actual Christian. Evil can lie about whatever Evil wants to.

As far as I can see/read, I don't see Mr Rader giving any reasons at all for his murders.He was either evil or insane, and the court judged he was sane enough for trial. So that leaves evil..... :devil:

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Guest Br Cornelius

The point being that there ARE atheists who hate, maybe not due to their atheism, but no one is immune to individual haters.

Anyway, it can also be seen as Christians believing that Jesus/God is Life, and so hating of God is hating of Life in that psychology. Not that I'm embracing that psychology, I'm simply pointing out it exists.

To frame what an atheist believes in a Christian terms is really inappropriate and leads to such bizarre and false notions as the ones you have expressed in this thread.

Your not going to like to hear it, but Evil loves to hide among the Good. Evil also will try to get into a place of leadership and trust when living among the Good. Just because Mr Rader went to church and was part of organizations of the church does not mean he was an actual Christian. Evil can lie about whatever Evil wants to.

And Evil is simply a way of labelling a behaviour your cannot be bothered to explain in terms of its context and psychology. There is no such thing as the abstract concept evil, their is behaviour which can always be understood.

To use your murder example, say a perfectly normal person receives a brain injury to the impulse control centre of their brain and they subsequently go out and kill a dozen people. He is caught - but the brain injury goes undetected. How is this functionally distinguishable from Mr Rader who you have labelled evil ?? The only difference is that when you make your judgement you have the knowledge that the brain injury released that persons ability to murder, but everyone else just sees the murders and labels the person evil as you would without the knowledge of his injury.

Every such case has an explanation - even if it is only that they were born with a brain makeup which tended towards deadly violence, a quality which in many circumstances would offer the group an evolutionary advantage if directed towards the army.

Far to much of ancient thinking was really quite lazy and it still has its hold on a sizable section of humanity. Please explain what and where evil resides outside of the mind of the person who uses the term.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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To frame what an atheist believes in a Christian terms is really inappropriate and leads to such bizarre and false notions as the ones you have expressed in this thread.

It's not inappropriate. It is simply a different vantage point.

I don't think what I've expressed is bizarre. I think many Christians would agree with me.

It is you who seem unable to appreciate anyone's opinions unless they come from your own limited perspective.

And Evil is simply a way of labelling a behaviour your cannot be bothered to explain in terms of its context and psychology. There is no such thing as the abstract concept evil, their is behaviour which can always be understood.

I have to disagree. Evil is clearly labeled as behavior that is harmful to society in general and to individuals specifically. Evil is the sane choice to harm others maliciously.

To use your murder example, say a perfectly normal person receives a brain injury to the impulse control centre of their brain and they subsequently go out and kill a dozen people. He is caught - but the brain injury goes undetected. How is this functionally distinguishable from Mr Rader who you have labelled evil ?? The only difference is that when you make your judgement you have the knowledge that the brain injury released that persons ability to murder, but everyone else just sees the murders and labels the person evil as you would without the knowledge of his injury.

To your knowledge has your example ever happened? Or is it so unlikely that you are contriving a situation to prove a point?

Did Mr Rader have a brain injury? Not that anyone knows about. Does he have any mitigating circumstances at all? Not that have been released. Did he have a horrible childhood, or get beaten by his wife, or forced to do degrading things by his boss? Not that we know of. Mr Rader just decided to start killing people and he did so with relish, and bragged about it. He had no motive except wishing harm on others.... in short he was Evil.

Every such case has an explanation - even if it is only that they were born with a brain makeup which tended towards deadly violence, a quality which in many circumstances would offer the group an evolutionary advantage if directed towards the army.

You say that, but that is only your belief. Your opinion. Go ahead show why Mr Rader started murdering people and why he continued to murder a total of 10 people.

Far to much of ancient thinking was really quite lazy and it still has its hold on a sizable section of humanity. Please explain what and where evil resides outside of the mind of the person who uses the term.

Such thinking persists, because as a whole it net profits humankind. People can say they are humanists, but really when you get down to it Humanism is just religion without a godhead. It carries all the same morals, ethics and mores that would normally come from a religion. Atheists claim that, in general, atheists are moral and ethical, which again is just religion without a godhead. They still would teach and pass down their morals and ethics to their kids and community. The same as a religion would. They simply believe they are free because they don't answer to anyone.

Atheism, when specified as moral and ethical, is just the continuation of the same thinking that has gone on since humans first pushed one guy forward to be the shaman/priest. Atheists simply believe that they are their own "god", and control their own fate.

Which is why I'm not against atheists, I am against those who attack Christianity. Atheists can just go along on their own way, and face the Judgement Day with whatever beliefs they chose too.

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