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Quick Introduction to Israel and Palestine

jewish voice peace palestine israel

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#76    Black Red Devil

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:27 AM

You've got to JUST LOVE the false propaganda you read from some Israeli posters on this forum.  "Most Israeli's accept Palestinian equal claims to the territory and are willing to share the land in a two state solution".  :o :lol:

Netanyahu is burying the two state solution

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Benjamin Netanyahu certainly has remarkable tactical acumen, even though many question his long-term strategic wisdom. In addition he is lucky: he has now found unexpected allies who will make sure that he stays in power for at least another term: Islamic Jihadists in Gaza and Sinai. By the end of his next term, the two state solution will be discarded in the dustbin of history, as he has wished from the outset.

What, then, is Netanyahu’s real strategy? I think that Ron Pundak’s recent analysis is right on target, because it corresponds both to Netanyahu’s actions and to his published statements since the 1990s. Netanyahu believes that Israel must prevent the creation of a territorially contiguous Palestinian state. He therefore continues to approve, one by one, settlements that, ever more effectively, make such territorial contiguity possible.

Hence, the second paragraph is the reason Israel recently got their a..ses kicked by their European buddies, not because of the "jihadists" as descibed in the first paragraph which is the Zionist' excuse for domination and oppression .

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#77    Erikl

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostBlackRedLittleDevil, on 10 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

You've got to JUST LOVE the false propaganda you read from some Israeli posters on this forum.  "Most Israeli's accept Palestinian equal claims to the territory and are willing to share the land in a two state solution".  :o :lol:

Netanyahu is burying the two state solution



Hence, the second paragraph is the reason Israel recently got their a..ses kicked by their European buddies, not because of the "jihadists" as descibed in the first paragraph which is the Zionist' excuse for domination and oppression .

You can post here as many opinion-articles as you'd like, all of the major parties in Israel have the two states solution in their manifesto. All of Israel's Prime Ministers have called for such a solution, in Hebrew, to their own people. As opposed to Palestinian leaders who keep on with their doublespeak: in english they say "oh yeah sure, we want peace", "oh yeah, we  want just solution" without going into details, but to their own people, in Arabic, they keep calling for the destruction of Israel, for Israel to be flooded with millions of Palestinian "refugees", and for a Palestinian state to replace Israel, not to exist side by side with it.

That's the simple, yet ugly truth, that you seem to be completely blind to.

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#78    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

Search the Likud manifesto on this forum (I've posted it before), it is expressly against any two station  solution. It states that all of the land is israel's.

Keep peddling propaganda mate, even though after years it does become tiresome.


#79    Black Red Devil

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

View PostErikl, on 10 December 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

You can post here as many opinion-articles as you'd like, all of the major parties in Israel have the two states solution in their manifesto. All of Israel's Prime Ministers have called for such a solution, in Hebrew, to their own people.

Here's the link again.
Netanyahu is burying the two state solution


Mea culpa, you must have unintentionally missed it in my previous post.

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#80    Erikl

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:53 PM

As for manifestos, they might not be the word I was looking for. I was referring to election party platforms. All of the major parties have that in their platforms. It's an Israeli consensus, and our current, Likud Prime Minister, have gave a speech endorsing just that back in 2009, in Hebrew, meaning it was meant for us, not merely the outside world. Indeed, in the past, Likud manifesto opposed a Palestinian state. But int the past 30 years it became from a minority support among Israelis to a consensus.

Palestinian leaders, on the other, are out there calling for the murder of Jews, the destruction of Israel. Show me one Prime Minister who used such words and gave such speeches. Your world view is completely detached with reality.

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#81    Black Red Devil

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostErikl, on 10 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I'm sorry, this ain't not thread about Syria. Nor is it a thread about how Iranian police officers are raping women before executing them so there won't any chance they'll be virgins when they go to their imaginative after life. Nor is it a thread about how MB activists are crucifying Copts in Egypt infront of their churches.


No, it's not about Syria, Iran or any other country in the world where oppression occurs. But please feel free to open up a thread about the genocide occurring in Sudan for example.  I'm pretty sure your every day "racists" of UM, which you claim are anti jewish, would be posting and commenting their disgust against Bashir for the hundreds of thousands of deaths.

The thread would be pretty lifeless but because there would be no Bashir supporter to argue against.  There would be no Bashir supporter trying to disguise the situation through smoke and mirrors.  There would be no Bashir supporter claiming to be victims of a world conspiracy.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 10 December 2012 - 06:01 PM.

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#82    Saru

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

Thread cleaned

Could everyone keep their comments civil and respectful please.


#83    Erikl

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

BRLD, as soon as you equate Israel to a genocide committing country, or like another member here equating Israel to Nazis, your argument is moot. I understand this site is a place for all sorts of conspiracy believers to come and share their thoughts, but this is the News section. So unless you have real, unbiased proof (you won't) that Israel is carrying out a genocide, that Israel is racist to the level of anywhere from Nazis to Apartheid South Africans, and you know what - that Israel treats it's Israeli Arab population the same way Jews were treated in the Soviet Union, then any of those analogues are moot and unacceptable, as much as they are pure demagogue. When I'll see an Israeli Prime Minister sounding even remotely the way Khaled Misha'al sounded in Gaza few days ago, or Israeli media portraying Palestinians remotely the way Jews are portrayed in Palestinian media, we could talk. Other than that, you're simply demonizing Israel, a democracy as opposed to all it's neighbors, including our partners for "peace" (aka the PA or Hamas).

The other option is that you are simply ignorant and completely brainwashed with Arab or pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Edited by Erikl, 10 December 2012 - 07:35 PM.

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#84    odas

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

View PostErikl, on 10 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

BRLD, as soon as you equate Israel to a genocide committing country, or like another member here equating Israel to Nazis, your argument is moot. I understand this site is a place for all sorts of conspiracy believers to come and share their thoughts, but this is the News section. So unless you have real, unbiased proof (you won't) that Israel is carrying out a genocide, that Israel is racist to the level of anywhere from Nazis to Apartheid South Africans, and you know what - that Israel treats it's Israeli Arab population the same way Jews were treated in the Soviet Union, then any of those analogues are moot and unacceptable, as much as they are pure demagogue. When I'll see an Israeli Prime Minister sounding even remotely the way Khaled Misha'al sounded in Gaza few days ago, or Israeli media portraying Palestinians remotely the way Jews are portrayed in Palestinian media, we could talk. Other than that, you're simply demonizing Israel, a democracy as opposed to all it's neighbors, including our partners for "peace" (aka the PA or Hamas).

The other option is that you are simply ignorant and completely brainwashed with Arab or pro-Palestinian propaganda.
I was not equating Israel to nazis but the Israely government and their propaganda tools.
Second, as for the Israely parties platforms in Hebrew having a two state solutions, well all of our parties here have no tax raises and all kinds of goodies in their platforms in ENGLISH but after that everything is forgotten.


#85    Erikl

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:03 PM

Odas,

Yes you were using a lot of Nazi reference and you know what I'm talking about.

Second - yeah our parties here also promise no tax. But they also promise other things, that no one make them to - the Likud until the beginning of the 2000s didn't really support a Palestinian state. Today it does. And being that their voters are right-wing Israelis, there is no reason for them to promise something that used to be considered until fairly recently a salient left-wing policy, unless most right-wing Israelis have accepted the notion of two states solution. That would be political suicide. It's as if a republican will offer to make America into a welfare state. That will never happen, unless that notion will become popular among republicans.

On the other hand, no Palestinian leader as ever specifically acknowledged Israel's right to exist to their people, in Arabic. And if they did, they redrawn those words afterwards.

I also urge you to show me a single case of any Israeli leader speak the same way Khaled MIshal spoke few days ago, or a single case where Israeli media portray Palestinians with the same hateful, racist way official Palestinian media portrays Israel and Jews. The conflict is simply viewed and treated in a total different manner on each side, Israelis seek safe existence with it's neighbor in any way possible (and while today there's an overall preference and agreement among the Israeli public to the two states solution, that might change), while the Palestinians seek to see Israel gone.

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#86    Yamato

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

View PostErikl, on 10 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

BRLD, as soon as you equate Israel to a genocide committing country, or like another member here equating Israel to Nazis, your argument is moot. I understand this site is a place for all sorts of conspiracy believers to come and share their thoughts, but this is the News section. So unless you have real, unbiased proof (you won't) that Israel is carrying out a genocide, that Israel is racist to the level of anywhere from Nazis to Apartheid South Africans, and you know what - that Israel treats it's Israeli Arab population the same way Jews were treated in the Soviet Union, then any of those analogues are moot and unacceptable, as much as they are pure demagogue. When I'll see an Israeli Prime Minister sounding even remotely the way Khaled Misha'al sounded in Gaza few days ago, or Israeli media portraying Palestinians remotely the way Jews are portrayed in Palestinian media, we could talk. Other than that, you're simply demonizing Israel, a democracy as opposed to all it's neighbors, including our partners for "peace" (aka the PA or Hamas).

The other option is that you are simply ignorant and completely brainwashed with Arab or pro-Palestinian propaganda.
Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) collective punishment on a particular ethnic group for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) crimes against humanity.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) violations of international law conventions of their time.   Nazi Germany and Israel both committed war crimes.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) apartheid.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice ethnic bigotry in their policies both foreign and domestic.  If Israel had the power that Nazi Germany had, there's no telling how horrible their policies would become.

The counter to these comparisons always boil down to "Israel isn't committing genocide like Nazi Germany did" as if that's the only comparison that matters, or as if our care and concern should begin at genocide.

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#87    shanlung

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:59 AM

What Israel wanted is nothing more than what Hitler wanted, Lebensraum.
Israel might as well put up the sign ARBEIT MACH FREI over all the entrances of Gaza and Palestinian enclaves.

The only way for a real peace is to allow armaments,  to Palestinians  , of the same power and accuracy that the Israel has.
Let them all fight with equality.
Let them then determine their own future.


#88    and then

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:31 AM

View Postshanlung, on 11 December 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

What Israel wanted is nothing more than what Hitler wanted, Lebensraum.
Israel might as well put up the sign ARBEIT MACH FREI over all the entrances of Gaza and Palestinian enclaves.

The only way for a real peace is to allow armaments,  to Palestinians  , of the same power and accuracy that the Israel has.
Let them all fight with equality.
Let them then determine their own future.
And what if, in this scenario, Israel was able to utterly destroy the fighting ability of Gaza and the West Bank?  What if because of these weapons you put such faith in, a couple of hundred thousand Israelis are killed or wounded but an equal number of Palestinians are also left dead or maimed?  Just giving extra armaments to the Palestinians - even assuming they could be sufficiently trained up in the near term would only cause more death.  That's not really what you want, is it?  Unless I misread you, what you seem to want is the destruction of Israel for their perceived crimes.  But does it occur to you there would still be no guarantees of the Palestinians winning?  So under your scenario there could be over a million or more dead in the region, the whole world brought to the edge of war and nukes even used possibly just so Israel could be punished.  It just doesn't sound logical to me; it seems based on an overwhelming hatred.

Edited by and then, 11 December 2012 - 04:32 AM.

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#89    MichaelW

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

View PostBlackRedLittleDevil, on 10 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

You've got to JUST LOVE the false propaganda you read from some Israeli posters on this forum.  "Most Israeli's accept Palestinian equal claims to the territory and are willing to share the land in a two state solution".

Israeli government =/= Israeli people. 60% of Israelis want and end to the settlement and to have them demolished. So when they say Israelis are willing to share, they are right.

I though you were above these blatantly incorrect, unresearched statements?

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#90    Erikl

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

View PostYamato, on 11 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) collective punishment on a particular ethnic group for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) crimes against humanity.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) violations of international law conventions of their time.   Nazi Germany and Israel both committed war crimes.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice(d) apartheid.   Nazi Germany and Israel both practice ethnic bigotry in their policies both foreign and domestic.  If Israel had the power that Nazi Germany had, there's no telling how horrible their policies would become.

The counter to these comparisons always boil down to "Israel isn't committing genocide like Nazi Germany did" as if that's the only comparison that matters, or as if our care and concern should begin at genocide.

More lies.... if the Israeli actions against the Palestinians were racially motivated, then 1.5 million Israeli Palestinians with the ability to vote and be elected, study in the same universities, ride the same buses and enjoy the exactly same public services - would have been impossible.

Your entire argument is demagogue and absurd.

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