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How do skeptics explain Qi Gong


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#76    Timonthy

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:22 PM

A question for believers: Can you please define qi or qigong or chi as you see it.

It's obvious that there's some confusion in this thread between people's different definitions.

This is the definition from wiki: Qigong, chi kung, or chi gung (simplified Chinese: 气功; traditional Chinese: 氣功; pinyin: qėgōng; Wade–Giles: chi4 gong1; literally "Life Energy Cultivation") is a practice of aligning breath, movement, and awareness for exercise, healing, and meditation.

Thanks in advance.

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#77    tyrant lizard

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:37 AM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 21 August 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Qi has been,,DEBUNKED .....
*rolling laughing*
Really !?
Do the billion + Asians who use it in day to day life,know ?
*crying laughing*
Did Bruce lee,or morihai ueshiba know,when they hurled people across rooms ?
Some lame guy,who obviously hasn't developed it at all,is not a debunking .
I dare you to go into an aikido dojo,walk up to a first degree black belt,and tell him his qi isn't real.
Let me know how you end up .
Oh my god ...

For interest parties only.



Naysayers need not comment,at all .
If you read my post again you will see I said "this version of chi has been debunked". In my earlier posts I am clearly saying chi exists. So you can stop laughing now.

Incidently, I have grappled with a aikido black belt. He tapped out in about a minute. Maybe if I mocked him about his chi he would have beaten me

Edited by tyrant lizard, 22 August 2012 - 08:38 AM.


#78    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:59 PM

View Posttyrant lizard, on 22 August 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

If you read my post again you will see I said "this version of chi has been debunked". In my earlier posts I am clearly saying chi exists. So you can stop laughing now.

Incidently, I have grappled with a aikido black belt. He tapped out in about a minute. Maybe if I mocked him about his chi he would have beaten me
To be fair, most effective aikido techniques would be quite illegal in a grappling match. it's like putting a small circle jujitsu practitioner against a Brazilian one, but with Brazilian rules. Now I have yet to see any "real" aikido black belts as originally taught.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#79    Andami

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:45 AM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 21 August 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Naysayers need not comment,at all .
Really? Why do you hate differing opinions so much? Seems to be very close-minded.

Qi, described as energy, is obviously not real, and Bruce Lee did not need the use of some mystical force to accomplish what he did. He was a martial artist who attained his strengths by strict diet and training. If you want to call mastery over the body "qi" then do so, but there is nothing extraordinary going on. No mythical force at work. Just extensive knowledge of pressure points and other anatomy. Any supernatural effect ascribed to qi is hoaxed. Maybe I'm wrong, but until I am shown personally without any of the showmanship that accompanies acts like these, or any credible research is done and reviewed by peers, that's my stance.


#80    jsowersby

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:37 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 20 August 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Let me guess... Child mortality beyond your guess? How much chances of survival you would have in, say, 18th century? How many of UM'ers would be posting here without the help of modern medicine, huh? Can you look into statistics, say, of India 50 years ago, and nowadays?  Where there those magic cures back then? What about China? What was death rate 50 years ago, and what nowodays?
Main question remains - what the chances of you remaining alive now, if not modern medicine?

Cancer mortality rates by country. http://www.nationmas...ath-from-cancer
America #9 in the world with our so called "most advanced medicine". To be fair, many of the deaths could be from being unable to afford medications and dying as a result. The concept of advanced modern medicine implies it is the most developed. It simply is not. Western medicine is the youngest theory in the world and claims to be more effective than methods that have been effective for thousands of years. Western doctors are trained to diagnose using expensive tests and prescribe medications that are based on symptom management, meaning if there are no symptoms then the person is healthy which is completely false. Chinese medicine states illness is caused by an imbalance of qi and if not corrected will manifest as an illness or disease. Correct qi and correct the illness. To take it further a qi imbalance can be caused by things such as poor diet, emotional and mental stress that is unresolved, external and internal toxins. Western doctors are now finding the link between diet, exercise, emotional state, and physical health. Big pharm wants us to take meds to "fix" our health issues. Just watch TV, commercials selling us crap that makes us sick and commercials selling us crap to make us feel better. # 1   Posted Image  Netherlands: 433 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Netherlands      # 2   Posted Image  Italy: 418 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Italy      # 3   Posted Image  Hungary: 411 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Hungary      # 4   Posted Image  Luxembourg: 409.7 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Luxembourg      # 5   Posted Image  Slovakia: 405.3 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Slovakia      # 6   Posted Image  Ireland: 357.6 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Ireland      # 7   Posted Image  Czech Republic: 335.4 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in Czech Republic      # 8   Posted Image  New Zealand: 327.3 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in New Zealand      # 9   Posted Image  United States: 321.9 deaths per 100,000 peopl
   Health in United States     
   Health in Australia     
   Health in Norway


#81    jsowersby

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostAndami, on 23 August 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Really? Why do you hate differing opinions so much? Seems to be very close-minded.

Qi, described as energy, is obviously not real, and Bruce Lee did not need the use of some mystical force to accomplish what he did. He was a martial artist who attained his strengths by strict diet and training. If you want to call mastery over the body "qi" then do so, but there is nothing extraordinary going on. No mythical force at work. Just extensive knowledge of pressure points and other anatomy. Any supernatural effect ascribed to qi is hoaxed. Maybe I'm wrong, but until I am shown personally without any of the showmanship that accompanies acts like these, or any credible research is done and reviewed by peers, that's my stance.

You can't develop qi without developing the body to clear blockages. The more you develop the body the stronger qi becomes, whether we know it or not. Also the healthier you eat, more you exercise, and clearer you are emotionally increases qi. Life energy = qi healthy body=stronger qi. Here is one study, peer reviewed. http://www.biomedcen.../1472-6882/1/8/

Changes in cytokine production in healthy subjects practicing Guolin Qigong : a pilot study


Brian M Jones


Author Affiliations

Division of Clinical Immunology, Pathology Department, Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam, Hong Kong
BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine 2001, 1:8 doi:10.1186/1472-6882-1-8

The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: http://www.biomedcen...m/1472-6882/1/8
Received: 6 August 2001 Accepted: 18 October 2001 Published: 18 October 2001

© 2001 Jones; licensee BioMed Central Ltd. This is an Open Access article: verbatim copying and redistribution of this article are permitted in all media for any purpose, provided this notice is preserved along with the article's original URL.


Abstract

Background

Guolin Qigong is a combination of meditation, controlled breathing and physical movement designed to control the vital energy (qi) of the body and consequently to improve spiritual, physical and mental health. Practice of Qigong has been reported to alter immunological function, but there have been few studies of its effects on cytokines, the key regulators of immunity.
Methods

Numbers of peripheral blood cytokine-secreting cells were determined by ELISPOT in 19 healthy volunteers aged 27 – 55, before they were taught the practice of Qigong and after 3, 7 and 14 weeks of daily practice. The effect of Qigong on blood cortisol was also examined.
Results

Numbers of IL4 and IL12-secreting cells remained stable. IL6 increased at 7 weeks and TNFα increased in unstimulated cultures at 3 and 7 weeks but decreased at these times in LPS and SAC-stimulated cultures. Of particular interest, IFNγ-secreting cells increased and IL10-secreting cells decreased in PHA-stimulated cultures, resulting in significant increases in the IFNγ:IL10 ratio. Cortisol, a known inhibitor of type 1 cytokine production, was reduced by practicing Qigong.
Conclusion

These preliminary studies in healthy subjects, although not necessarily representative of a randomized healthy population and not including a separate control group, have indicated that blood levels of the stress-related hormone cortisol may be lowered by short-term practice of Qigong and that there are concomitant changes in numbers of cytokine-secreting cells. Further studies of the effect of Qigong in patients with clinical diseases known to be associated with type 2 cytokine predominance are merited.
1].
Guolin Qigong was introduced more than 50 years ago by Madam Guo, a long-term cancer survivor who developed a network of self-help groups throughout China and beyond. This form of Qigong, which is characterized by a slow walking exercise accompanied by arm movements coordinated with slight twisting movements of the waist, is said to be particularly helpful for cancer patients.
Among the organs apparently affected by qigong are brain, heart, kidney and the immune system, with benefits being reported in senility, hypertension, stroke, asthma, blood chemistry and cancer [2-6]. (See also http://www.goldenflo...treatment.shtml webcite).
The reported benefits of Qigong could be mediated by effects on immunological function and various aspects of immune function could perhaps be influenced by qi energy. However, there have been only a few peer-reviewed publications describing alterations in immune system activity as a result of practicing Qigong. Delayed cutaneous hypersensitivity responses were faster, stronger and more numerous in a Qigong trained group than a normal healthy group
[7]. Patients with aplastic anaemia treated with Qigong showed significant improvement in CD4+:CD8+ T-cell ratio[8], which also increased in newly recruited Qigong trainees after 5 months of practice[9]. CD4:CD8 T-cell ratios and NK-cell activity tended to increase during a single 40-minute session of Qigong[10]. Various non-reviewed studies have described increased lymphocyte, neutrophil and natural killer (NK) cell functions in subjects practicing Qigong [see Extension of Life: Documentation on the Effects of Chi Kong Qigong (Edited by Zhang RM) Renming Tin Yue Press, China 1995; and http://www.goldenflo...reatment.shtml] webcite
Cytokines are highly labile effector glycoproteins which are crucially involved in afferent and efferent limbs of immune responses as pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory regulators. Type 1 cytokines, such as interferon-gamma (IFNγ), tumour necrosis factor alpha (TNFα) and interleukin (IL) 12, promote cell-mediated responses, while type 2 cytokines, including IL4, IL6 and IL10, are anti-inflammatory and favour humoral responses
<a name="d17798e184">[11,12]. Cell-mediated responses are important in protection against cancers, while overproduction of anti-inflammatory cytokines is potentially suppressive for anti-cancer immunity. The present pilot study was designed to investigate effects of Qigong on in vitro cytokine production in healthy volunteers and to determine whether further evaluation of its effects on the cytokine profiles of patients with cancer would be valuable. We measured production of the above 6 cytokines before Qigong training and for up to 14 weeks of performing the exercises. Significant increases in PHA-stimulated IFNγ:IL10 ratios were found, indicating a shift towards cytokines favoring cell-mediated immunity.

"The Taoists call the science of how you develop strong energy flow or internal power neigong.  Neigong has sixteen components:
1.  Breathing methods, from the simple to the more complex.
2.  Feeling, moving, transforming, transmuting and connecting energy channels of the body.
3.  Precise body alignments to prevent the flow of chi from being blocked or dissipated.
4.  Dissolving physical, emotional and spiritual blockages.
5.  Moving energy through the acupuncture meridians and other secondary channels of the body, including the energy gates.
6.  Bending and stretching the body, both from the inside and from the outside in.
7.  Opening and closing (pulsing) all parts of the body's anatomy including the joints, soft tissues, fluids, internal organs,
spine and brain as well as all the body's subtle energy channels.
8.  Manipulating the energy of the external aura outside the body.
9.  Making circles and spirals of energy inside the body, controlling the spiraling energy currents of the body and moving chi in the body at will.
10.  Absorbing energy into and projecting energy away from any part of the body.
11.  Controlling all the energies of the spine.
12.  Controlling the left and right energy channels of the body.
13.  Controlling the central energy channel of the body.
14.  Learning to develop the capabilities and all use of the body's lower tantien.  
14.  Learning to develop the capabilities and uses of the body's upper and middle tantiens.
15.  Connecting every part of the physical and other energetic bodies into one, unified energy."
-  Bruce Frantzis, Dragon and Tiger Qigong, 2010, xxviii  



#82    jsowersby

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostTimonthy, on 21 August 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

A question for believers: Can you please define qi or qigong or chi as you see it.

It's obvious that there's some confusion in this thread between people's different definitions.

This is the definition from wiki: Qigong, chi kung, or chi gung (simplified Chinese: 气功; traditional Chinese: 氣功; pinyin: qìgōng; Wade–Giles: chi4 gong1; literally "Life Energy Cultivation") is a practice of aligning breath, movement, and awareness for exercise, healing, and meditation.

Thanks in advance.

My understanding of it is that it is the precursor or root energy of material reality. Here is a book that defines itfurther.  http://books.google.com/books?id=3WiHlNR2bekC&printsec=frontcover&dq=what+is+chi?&source=bl&ots=or46h2RqiG&sig=57k0VmfyOlTEmRzAPtiaJjU1hgc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2gw9UKOBJoryyAHN04H4Ag&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20chi%3F&f=false


#83    jsowersby

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 04:13 AM

Here is something free anyone can try. I've done this and have experienced emotions clearing out, warmth in my torso, increased energy, fatigue usually lasting from a few days before the actual date, peaking on the date of the healing, and lasting until a few days after. I have PTSD and this has helped me but it is not easy to deal with emotions that come up but that is how to truly heal. Healing emotions does not mean not feeling them, it means bringing them up to feel them and release them. All you need to do is register for the healing on the page and use your intention to say, "yes, I want to heal" you can target any affliction mental or physical. A word of caution though, if you are doing acupuncture, or EFT it can be quite intense. I registered for the healing while practicing EFT Tapping, which involves tapping meridians throughout the body, and experienced such intense emotions coming up I had to miss work for a few days, my hands were shaking and I was in fight or flight response for almost a week straight. After I felt much lighter and clearer.

http://www.facebook.....Energy.Healing


#84    bmk1245

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 28 August 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Cancer mortality rates by country. http://www.nationmas...ath-from-cancer
America #9 in the world with our so called "most advanced medicine". To be fair, many of the deaths could be from being unable to afford medications and dying as a result. The concept of advanced modern medicine implies it is the most developed. It simply is not. Western medicine is the youngest theory in the world and claims to be more effective than methods that have been effective for thousands of years. Western doctors are trained to diagnose using expensive tests and prescribe medications that are based on symptom management, meaning if there are no symptoms then the person is healthy which is completely false. Chinese medicine states illness is caused by an imbalance of qi and if not corrected will manifest as an illness or disease. Correct qi and correct the illness. To take it further a qi imbalance can be caused by things such as poor diet, emotional and mental stress that is unresolved, external and internal toxins. Western doctors are now finding the link between diet, exercise, emotional state, and physical health. Big pharm wants us to take meds to "fix" our health issues.[...]
OK, can you give us statistics about percentage of cancer patients cured by quacks (you are so fondly peddling)? I wonder, how many qi/chi/whatever  quacks are attending modern medicine institutions?  And doesn't occurred to you simple detail about numbers you posted - better diagnosis, huh?

And its not only about cancer. Show me at least one country where quack medicine is prevailing, and life expectation rising. What was life expectation 50 years ago in China (all sorts of alleged mumbo jumbo), and what is nowadays? What was life expectation 50 years ago in India (with all meditations and other crap), and what is nowadays? Damn, Japanese must be going only on quack medicine, since they "live" longest. Are they?


View Postjsowersby, on 28 August 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

[...]Just watch TV, commercials selling us crap that makes us sick and commercials selling us crap to make us feel better
Dude, you're watching TV?! Sit on the bike instead watching TV or driving few miles on the car, and you'll be healthier, although that will not cure all diseases you'll meet, nor will quackery.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#85    bmk1245

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:17 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 30 August 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Here is something free anyone can try. I've done this and have experienced emotions clearing out, warmth in my torso, increased energy, fatigue usually lasting from a few days before the actual date, peaking on the date of the healing, and lasting until a few days after. I have PTSD and this has helped me but it is not easy to deal with emotions that come up but that is how to truly heal. Healing emotions does not mean not feeling them, it means bringing them up to feel them and release them. All you need to do is register for the healing on the page and use your intention to say, "yes, I want to heal" you can target any affliction mental or physical. A word of caution though, if you are doing acupuncture, or EFT it can be quite intense. I registered for the healing while practicing EFT Tapping, which involves tapping meridians throughout the body, and experienced such intense emotions coming up I had to miss work for a few days, my hands were shaking and I was in fight or flight response for almost a week straight. After I felt much lighter and clearer.

http://www.facebook.....Energy.Healing
Hmmm... OK, I see, you really peddling quackery.
I don't care about the ways adults get their Darwin award (good for rest of us), but when morons start using quack medicine on their kids, thats beyond any word (there are cases)...

Edited by bmk1245, 31 August 2012 - 10:18 PM.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#86    Hasina

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:28 PM

Something's modern science hasn't explained yet,and since it's not from the West, of course it'll be viewed with a slight upturned nose. Sooner or later it'll be explained or it'll be debunked, doesn't matter to me, it's bloody fascinating either way. It's either a unexplained phenomenon or these people are brilliant showmen. I don't have to explain it to myself because I acknowledge I lack all the facts.

Posted Image

~MEH~


#87    jsowersby

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:35 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 31 August 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Hmmm... OK, I see, you really peddling quackery.
I don't care about the ways adults get their Darwin award (good for rest of us), but when morons start using quack medicine on their kids, thats beyond any word (there are cases)...

I don't care if you beleive me or not. You're disbelief has no impact on the effectiveness of Chinese medicine. Choose not to investigate or think for yourself, continue believing what you are told to believe, continue taking medications that cure nothing. I beleive there are quack medical doctors from every philosophy. I've experienced the effectiveness of acupuncture and Chinese medicine first hand. I'm not peddling anything, the website is free. It makes no difference to me if you decide to try it or not. BTW, I canceled my cable and take no medications, I choose to take responsibility for my own health rather than rely on a doctor who peddles legal drugs.

P.S. Do you're own research if you really want to know.

Edited by jsowersby, 04 September 2012 - 06:36 PM.


#88    Ryu

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 04 September 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

the effectiveness of Chinese medicine.......

The problem is that the mind can be a very deceptive thing indeed and a person can fully believe that acupuncture is actually doing something when it is far more plausible that it is doing nothing at all except making money for the practitioner.

See..I fell for the acupuncture thing too and in the end it really didn't do anything...I only thought it did then I noticed that after my "treatments" nothing really changed. I tried to be neutral about it but i suppose in the back of my mind I wanted it to work and thus deceived myself.


View Postjsowersby, on 04 September 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I choose to take responsibility for my own health rather than rely on a doctor who peddles legal drugs.

Good. Everyone should be doing that; it doesn't take dubious woo practices to be healthy.


#89    Arbitran

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:46 AM

Qi Gong and the like have always interested me. I've heard some very interesting hypotheses, and seen some very unusual things, and as a biologist, I must admit, there might be something there we haven't seen yet. But it would be dishonest and unscientific of me to say that I outright believe in it; because I can't really do that until I measure it conclusively, can I? In any case, the possibility is fascinating.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#90    bmk1245

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:33 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 04 September 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I don't care if you beleive me or not. You're disbelief has no impact on the effectiveness of Chinese medicine. Choose not to investigate or think for yourself, continue believing what you are told to believe, continue taking medications that cure nothing. I beleive there are quack medical doctors from every philosophy. I've experienced the effectiveness of acupuncture and Chinese medicine first hand. I'm not peddling anything, the website is free. It makes no difference to me if you decide to try it or not. BTW, I canceled my cable and take no medications, I choose to take responsibility for my own health rather than rely on a doctor who peddles legal drugs.

P.S. Do you're own research if you really want to know.
I'll repeat myself: I don't care any more how adults get their Darwin awards. If you want to follow whatever mumbo-jumbo, thats your choice.
BTW how many endangered species are used for Chinese, etc. medicine, huh?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).




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