198 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

Zaphod222, on 12 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

They exist as much as the Flying Spaghetti monster exists.
Why do people continue to bring up this superstitious nonsense.

You are factually wrong.

Your opinion, while honest and logical, is based on your own lack of encounter with an angel.

It is like saying aliens are superstitious nonsense just because you personally have never encountered one, and is as disrespectful as saying aliens do not exist, to a person who has encountered one.

Angels (just a name we give these beings) are as real, physical, and independent of being, as you are. You can see them, hear them touch them converse withthem mentally and aurally. They can bring you real articles which remain They can alter their own composition and tha tof mater around them. They can walk through a door  if they choose or, just as easily, a wall.

They are  sometimes seen by other humans when they appear to an individual. They  appear to be almost avatars of "god', with many of the same powers and abilities. Perhaps they are god, or god manifests as angels. I suspect that much of the theology about god comes from individuals' encounters with angels.

I have met them in a number of forms. What struck me is that they first appeared when i was an atheist secular humanist, completely unsuspecting,  and I had no idea what they were, having never read the bible or other religious literature. I didnt even know what they were, and first  (immediately)suspected either a projection of my own mind or a non religious alien intervention/encounter. The action and intent of my first angel, along with its words, authority, and physical power, however,  conveyed  to me an appreciation of its care, compassion, and love. Hence it fitted  what i later read about angels

Later, reading many accounts about them, I found that, for many millenia, these beings have been appearing to humans in the same range of forms, and doing the same thing in their interactions with human beings.

I might  suspect they were jungian archetypes, if not for their physical reality, which is evidenced in the same ways all independent physical reality is evidenced.

Because angels have been engaging with humans for many millenia, we know they are advanced/evolved considerably more than humans. Their technology and abilities have long seemed magical to us.

But we are catching up. Within a hundred years, based on current scientific development, humans will be able to reproduce almost all the observed abilities of an angel, using technologies like matter transmission and conversion of energy/matter/energy at will. Our food clothing etc will be created from templates and delivered to us via matter transmission, and we will most likely travel using the same devices.

Thus, we too, will appear and disappear instantaneously, appear to move through solid objects, and be able to materialse and dematerialise, or transport solid objects to a spatial location of our chosing. We will converse using telepathy and be able to manipulate remote and local environments using the power of our minds enhanced by technology. We have begun all these processes, and had initial succes in each of them, so we know we will succeed at them..

And if we can do all these things, why not a race slightly older and more evolved than we are?

Edited by Mr Walker, 12 January 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[Jor-el]

If you've never seen one, you've never had the need to see one.

[Ryn]

Angels have to exist, just ask serenity.. my guardian angel..

[Zaphod222]

Mr Walker, on 12 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

You are factually wrong.

Your opinion, while honest and logical, is based on your own lack of encounter with an angel.

It is like saying aliens are superstitious nonsense just because you personally have never encountered one, and is as disrespectful as saying aliens do not exist, to a person who has encountered one.

Angels (just a name we give these beings) are as real, physical, and independent of being, as you are. You can see them, hear them touch them converse withthem mentally and aurally. They can bring you real articles which remain They can alter their own composition and tha tof mater around them. They can walk through a door  if they choose or, just as easily, a wall.

They are  sometimes seen by other humans when they appear to an individual. They  appear to be almost avatars of "god', with many of the same powers and abilities. Perhaps they are god, or god manifests as angels. I suspect that much of the theology about god comes from individuals' encounters with angels.

I have met them in a number of forms.
(snip)

You met something. Or you imagined meeting something. There is no reason to resort to superstitious gobbledygook to explain what you saw or what your mind made you see.
There are any numbers of explanations for what you saw or imagined, recreational substances being one that explains most of such "experiences".
In any case, as I said: The Flying Spaghetti Monster is as good an explanation for your sightings as "angels".

Because the proof of existance for The Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly as solid as the proof of existance of angels.

[greywolf]

I believe in them.

[laver]

Angels, messengers from angelos greek for messenger

Angles , space beween lines from angulos Greek for corner

Geometry and math can be messengers, lines can be messengers, alignments can be messengers

And it is alignments we see in ancient landscape geometry, alignments of ancient sacred sites

These alignments are ancient messages linked to the deities of the people at that time

It is the angle or bearing of the lines that is the message

[reggie2011]

wow look at all these crazys comming out of the woodwork why do they have to be angels why not flying speggtti monsters did they ever actully say they ae angels? or is that in ur imagination as well ?

[papadad]

Zaphod222, on 12 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster explains your "unexplained mysterious incidents" as well as angels do. So does Godzilla for that matter.
Good grief.

Well,throughout history there have been thousands of Angelic reported encounters,while I cant recall any FSM or Godzilla incidents,So that not even comes close as an explanation.Sorry,but I dont think I earned a "Good Grief" for that.Just respectfully stating what I believe in.

I dont see how anyone can write it off as vivid imagination,its all left to each individual as whether its real or not,and I just happen to believe.

[joc]

Zaphod222, on 13 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

You met something. Or you imagined meeting something. There is no reason to resort to superstitious gobbledygook to explain what you saw or what your mind made you see.
There are any numbers of explanations for what you saw or imagined, recreational substances being one that explains most of such "experiences".
In any case, as I said: The Flying Spaghetti Monster is as good an explanation for your sightings as "angels".

Because the proof of existance for The Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly as solid as the proof of existance of angels.

You are completely glossing over all Quantum Physics, and other Sciences that deal with the subject.  Black and White is not even black and white, you know?

[Kludge808]

Zaphod222, on 13 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Because the proof of existance for The Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly as solid as the proof of existance of angels.

Now wait a gosh darned minute here!  The FSM is central to Pastafarian religion and you can't tell me that Pastafarians don't exist.  They do and since they do the FSM must exist or there wouldn't be any Pastafarians.  See?  Simple.

Now, getting serious for a very rare moment, people experience things they can't explain in normal terms.  Writing them off to some prosaic explanation doesn't always work.  This is like saying all UFO observations are weather balloons, Venus, swamp gas or hallucinations.  It simply doesn't work which is why there are still unknowns on record.  (Note: "Unknown" does not automatically imply aliens, just that the observation hasn't any conventional explanation.)

As a minister, I say that angels do exist.  However describing their precise characteristics is where I get into an awful lot of trouble with other clergy.  I simply don't know if they are, in fact, messengers from God or if they are manifestations of the mind or any of a number of other possibilities, some of which fall deeply into the realm of the paranormal.  The easy way out is to use religious or spiritual definitions and be done with it.  Where this fails is when they cross religious/spiritual boundaries into realms where angels per se aren't an acceptable explanation.  This is when things get a bit more interesting.  Atheists and belief sets & other environments that have no equivalent to angels still have reports of experiences that would in religious terms be described as angelic in nature.  Since these aren't belief-driven yet fall outside the realm of what one could term normal then perhaps there is something else going on we don't know about.  What are they?  Heck if I know.

[Etu Malku]

Render, on 09 January 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

http://www.livescien...ngels-real.html

Before I can answer this poll, I need to know how you are defining "real"?

[HDesiato]

I voted no.
A few years ago I would have said yes, and although I  could say maybe, given the option, it's way closer to no at this point.
Personal experiences are nice but I know firsthand how they can be all up to interpretation.
.

[Mr Walker]

Zaphod222, on 13 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

You met something. Or you imagined meeting something. There is no reason to resort to superstitious gobbledygook to explain what you saw or what your mind made you see.
There are any numbers of explanations for what you saw or imagined, recreational substances being one that explains most of such "experiences".
In any case, as I said: The Flying Spaghetti Monster is as good an explanation for your sightings as "angels".

Because the proof of existance for The Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly as solid as the proof of existance of angels.

Something real is not superstitious. Nor is logical deduction, extrapolation, and researched information, gained in seeking an answer to something encountered. Angel is a name humans have given to these beings. I prefer "beings of light" because that is their most common  manifestaion over history. "Superstitions" may well be humans attempts to rationalise what they encounter. I have encountered real  independent physical beings, self existent, self directed, who demnstarte an interest in me and can physically alter the nature of them selves of me and of the naturla world around me.

What i make of them depends on how we interact, and what i can discover about them. This is true for my relationship with any living, and especially sapient, being who choses to make them selves known to me. I once lived with a ghost, and i engaged with her on the same basis.

I detect a sense of denial in your tone perhpas based on genuine  incredulous disbelief, but perhaps based on fear of what it would mean if my experiences were just what I say they are Dont worry. i had to deal/ cope with, and adjust to all of that myslef. I didnt want or ask for such an intervention, or such a relationship in my life. NOW i can appreciate the incredible benefits it brings but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I didn't wat to have to live with a god or to be protected by angels It is unlikley you willhave to face this yourself and so you can continue to live your life as you choose.

Ps In my 40 years of engagement with god and angels i have never touched any mind altering drugs, including even tobacco or alcohol The first thing an angel did for me was to remove my addiction to nicotine and my need for any form of artificial enhancements.  I am also certified medically well in mind and brain,  so you will have to find other forms of excuse to justify your denial.  and one does not imagine things which  are indendently witnessed by others. That puts them out of the realm of delusion or hallucination, or faulty perception, and into the realm of common physical existence.
Pps the part of my post you snipped indicates that I suspect for obsevation of how they operate that angels operate by purely natural means including advanced technology.

All physical entities are bound by their  physicality to certain rules and laws. Because my encounters are not belief driven. I see nothing metaphysical or supernatural about angels or god; both are as real as we are, just different.

Edited by Mr Walker, 13 January 2013 - 11:09 PM.

[joc]

Quote

I once lived with a ghost, and i engaged with her on the same basis.

Could you describe her please.  Did she appear as something visual?  Audible?  Or was there a psychic connection?

[Paranoid Android]

Zaphod222, on 13 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

In any case, as I said: The Flying Spaghetti Monster is as good an explanation for your sightings as "angels".

Because the proof of existance for The Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly as solid as the proof of existance of angels.

  And in any case, as I said, we can track the origins of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to a recent internet meme. Since we cannot track the origin of angels as simply or so specifically identify their beginning, t is a factually incorrect statement that the same proof exists for both.

Best case scenario - we can factually prove the origin of the FSM, therefore know it to be false. With the origin of angels difficult to track due to multiple traditions both oral and written, the best you could get is that based on scientific/empirical data angels are "likely" to be imaginary. From there it's up to individual conversation from those who claim to have actually seen angels, and whether you choose to believe or disbelieve them when they say what they have seen

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 14 January 2013 - 03:40 AM.