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#136    Sean93

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 01 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

,,,in some religions, even their self-proclaimed "prophets" killed, took land, condoned rape, etc. Which takes the hypocrisy of their believers to new levels, when they claim to represent morality. Anyway, all religions represent irrational beliefs, and we should stop "respecting" them simply because they demand respect. Respect has to be earned, and most religions fail miserably in that.

I think Chris Hitchens said it best: "Religion now comes to us in this smiley-face ingratiating way, because it's had to give so much ground and because we know so much more. But you've no right to forget the way it behaved when it was strong, and when it really did believe that it had God on its side."

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#137    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostSean93, on 01 January 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

I think Chris Hitchens said it best: "Religion now comes to us in this smiley-face ingratiating way, because it's had to give so much ground and because we know so much more. But you've no right to forget the way it behaved when it was strong, and when it really did believe that it had God on its side."


Posted Image


The above sign I think also applies to Hitchens...

Let me put it to you, that without God, you have no "Unalienable Rights", all your Moral stances are like so much chaff in the wind.

Edited by Jor-el, 01 January 2013 - 08:41 PM.

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#138    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Posted Image


The above sign I think also applies to Hitchens...

Let me put it to you, that without God, you have no "Unalienable Rights", all your Moral stances are like so much chaff in the wind.

If you actually believe that then I have lost all respect for you.

Edited by HavocWing, 01 January 2013 - 08:52 PM.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#139    joc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Posted Image


The above sign I think also applies to Hitchens...

Let me put it to you, that without God, you have no "Unalienable Rights", all your Moral stances are like so much chaff in the wind.
Unalienable Rights were not handed out by God...they are Ideals of Man..enforced by the edge of the sword, the powder and lead of the gun and the sweat, tears, and blood of those who invision them as non-compromising.

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#140    Sean93

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Posted Image


The above sign I think also applies to Hitchens...

Let me put it to you, that without God, you have no "Unalienable Rights", all your Moral stances are like so much chaff in the wind.

Hilarious. Everyone dies and I can bet God never said that...unless you can hear him and happen to have been around in 1900.

I can see your hunger for justice, nothing wrong with that but the universe owes you nothing.

I don't get my morality from god or the bible, I get it from experience and from the consequences I face as a human if I attempt to ruin the lives of others. Unalienable rights or rights that transcend the physical world are just something someone thought up to keep themselves happy, to make them feel significant. I think we're insignificant but then I'm inclined to an opinion and care not if someone disagree's with it.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#141    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 01 January 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

If you actually believe that then I have lost all respect for you.

Truth is seldom easily accepted.

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#142    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:38 PM

View Postjoc, on 01 January 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Unalienable Rights were not handed out by God...they are Ideals of Man..enforced by the edge of the sword, the powder and lead of the gun and the sweat, tears, and blood of those who invision them as non-compromising.

Actually that is incorrect, without God, you have no rights anyone needs to respect. I don't speak for myself here, it is basic logic, it is exactly how life is without God and how life used to be without God, and guess what, it will be what life will be like in the future, without God. It is the power of the strong over the weak, the natural order of things...

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-C. S. Lewis


#143    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostSean93, on 01 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Hilarious. Everyone dies and I can bet God never said that...unless you can hear him and happen to have been around in 1900.

I can see your hunger for justice, nothing wrong with that but the universe owes you nothing.

I don't get my morality from god or the bible, I get it from experience and from the consequences I face as a human if I attempt to ruin the lives of others. Unalienable rights or rights that transcend the physical world are just something someone thought up to keep themselves happy, to make them feel significant. I think we're insignificant but then I'm inclined to an opinion and care not if someone disagree's with it.

Of course God never said, that, but then again, neither did Neitzche, His phrase has been totally misused over the years...

“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?”


Nietzsche’s works express a fear that the decline of religion, the rise of atheism, and the absence of a higher moral authority would plunge the world into chaos. The western world had depended on the rule of God for thousands of years — it gave order to society and meaning to life. Without it, Nietzsche writes, society will move into an age of nihilism. Although Nietzsche may have been considered a nihilist by definition, he was critical of it and warned that accepting nihilism would be dangerous.


Funny, but Nietzche expressed exactly what I have stated.

Edited by Jor-el, 01 January 2013 - 09:50 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#144    Sean93

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Of course God never said, that, but then again, neither did Neitzche, His phrase has been totally misused over the years...

“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?”


Nietzsche’s works express a fear that the decline of religion, the rise of atheism, and the absence of a higher moral authority would plunge the world into chaos. The western world had depended on the rule of God for thousands of years — it gave order to society and meaning to life. Without it, Nietzsche writes, society will move into an age of nihilism. Although Nietzsche may have been considered a nihilist by definition, he was critical of it and warned that accepting nihilism would be dangerous.


Funny, but Nietzche expressed exactly what I have stated.

If he never said that exact quote then why use it in the first place? Furthermore, why use his name in a negative light "Niettzche is dead" and then use him positively when you find a way to spin his web on your favor?

Religion and god may give meaning to the lives of many and that's fine and dandy but it works the same way as knowing Daddy is in the house when you fear the monster in the closet. As for saying that the rule of God gave order to society...are you ******* insane? You talk as if religion and god brought peace and prosperity to the land and now that Atheism is on the rise that that order is breaking down. In case you haven't noticed, in today's developed societies, we no longer pay indulgences, no longer have inquisitors killing witches and damning astronomers and above all, Atheists can actually express their opinions in public now without being Hanged, Drawn and Quartered so the quote I used from Hitchen's above stands firmly: Religion has had to sacrifice a lot and I'm glad Atheism rose to it's challenge, I certainly would not want to be living in a repressed and superstitiously ruled society where I can be killed for disagreeing with some idiot in a pointy hat. **** that.

God may be an anchor to the lives of many, and that is fine but all your talk of objective moral values is only faith, we can be good without God, in fact we can be better than god.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#145    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Actually that is incorrect, without God, you have no rights anyone needs to respect. I don't speak for myself here, it is basic logic, it is exactly how life is without God and how life used to be without God, and guess what, it will be what life will be like in the future, without God. It is the power of the strong over the weak, the natural order of things...

No that is not basic logic, your "god" is the mirror image of the beast of revelation in your holy book.  Death to those who don't worship him.  There over 7 billion humans on this planet, we don't need to follow the philosophy of "might is right".  That is pure egotism and is dishonorable.  We have brains, time to start using them before we die because of some brain dead lunatic who thinks there can be only one.

Edited by HavocWing, 01 January 2013 - 10:40 PM.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#146    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:19 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 01 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

No that is not basic logic, your "god" is the mirror image of the beast of revelation in your holy book.  Death to those who don't worship him.  There over 7 billion humans on this planet, we don't need to follow the philosophy of "might is right".  That is pure egotism and is dishonorable.  We have brains, time to start using them before we die because of some brain dead lunatic who thinks there can be only one.

True egotism can best be expressed in the belief that one's brain can out think the creator, and that the creator is the unjust one, not them who express such contempt for him. That's what is truly dishonorable.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#147    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 01 January 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

True egotism can best be expressed in the belief that one's brain can out think the creator, and that the creator is the unjust one, not them who express such contempt for him. That's what is truly dishonorable.

A box of rocks can out think him.  Just about everyone is smarter than him.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
Jewish gematria # 629:
The holy bible
Demonic inspiration

#148    Sean93

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:34 PM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 01 January 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

True egotism can best be expressed in the belief that one's brain can out think the creator, and that the creator is the unjust one, not them who express such contempt for him. That's what is truly dishonorable.

I think Egotism more so expresses its self in people who parade around, claiming to know the mind of god without an Iota of evidence or fact to back up their claims.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#149    Sean93

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Truth is seldom easily accepted.

That certainly works both ways.

What makes your Truth any more viable and true than that of Islam?

Just say Faith instead of being so close-minded as to call Objective Moral Values 'Basic Knowledge'. If it's so basic then why do so many people disagree with it? If it was basic it would be easy to understand and believe but alas it is not.

Are you saying that we need God to be good?

Edited by Sean93, 01 January 2013 - 11:44 PM.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#150    Lava_Lady

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:42 PM

View Postjoc, on 31 December 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

Lava_Lady,
If I may...let me synthesize all of that down for you.  It is liken unto thus:   There is only one thing that exists.  That one thing is energy.  Somehow, and I don't presume to know how, and I am extremely wary of anyone who proposes that they do know how, nonetheless, somehow, this Energy manifests in an infinite number of forms, on an infinite number of levels, for an infinite number of reasons, none of which you or I are privy to.  The stars, the space between the stars, all Energy.   Some call this Energy God.  And some propose that because 'everything is God' then we are God and so I am God and you are God.
I don't buy any of that...I just call it Energy.  There is a magnetic resonance that governs the Universe...and this magnetic resonance is also Energy.  Again, Energy is the only thing that exists.  Why it manifests, how it manifests...the illusive mystery that is unknowable.  Why?  An unanswerable question...and the OPs question is irrelevant because it is based on a false premise...therefore..all resulting discussion of God and Why this or why that is an effort born of futility and boredom.   Thank you. No charge....unless you feel you need to pay for this otherwise priceless information, in which case I do have a Pay-pal account. :D

That's not exactly what I was trying to say but  thanks.  ;)

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