28 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

Render, on 11 October 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

    Peace of Mind: Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations



http://www.scientifi...mind-near-death

Seeing that drugs affect the dopamine levels and oxygen flow in the body it completely makes sense they can induce this hallucination.

Oh brother... Not this old argument again. Because something can induce something has no bearing what so ever on the non induced state. We can probably induce the smell of flowers,  feeling hot, or sad emotions. None of this says anything about the existence of flowers, heat , or events that actually make us sad.

The logic goes like this. If we can artificially induce an NDE like experience, then NDEs are hullicinations. therefore a person haveing an NDE is haveing an artificial experience.

A gross logical erorr.
http://en.m.wikipedi...quent#section_1

[Render]

Seeker79, on 11 October 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Oh brother... Not this old argument again. Because something can induce something has no bearing what so ever on the non induced state. We can probably induce the smell of flowers,  feeling hot, or sad emotions. None of this says anything about the existence of flowers, heat , or events that actually make us sad.

The logic goes like this. If we can artificially induce an NDE like experience, then NDEs are hullicinations. therefore a person haveing an NDE is haveing an artificial experience.

A gross logical erorr.
http://en.m.wikipedi...quent#section_1

It's empirical evidence that it is not a spiritual experience, but a brain malfunction.

The drug induces deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow.
When not induced by a drug the same deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow occurs.

So you can turn it either way : it is not something spiritual , it is a malfunction that manifests in hallucination.
If you go high up in the sky and you start to suffer from hypoxia you also get euphoric and can get hallucinations. So you're claiming that this is a spiritual experience, that's BS.

Edited by Render, 11 October 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Seeker79]

Render, on 11 October 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

It's empirical evidence that it is not a spiritual experience, but a brain malfunction.

The drug induces deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow.
When not induced by a drug the same deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow occurs.

So you can turn it either way : it is not something spiritual , it is a malfunction that manifests in hallucination.
If you go high up in the sky and you start to suffer from hypoxia you also get euphoric and can get hallucinations. So you're claiming that this is a spiritual experience, that's BS.

I was claiming that sort of logic is silly.  "that's bs" is not a counter argument. You might as well say IB  profrin dosn't ease pain because it's just a chemical reaction. If you dream of peeches, then peeches are not real because it was only your dream. Are you starting to get it now?  Corolation my dear Watson is rarely what it seems at first innocent look.

With that said OOBES can be induced without low oxygen level or drugs . Neither conditions are necessary.

Edited by Seeker79, 11 October 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Render]

Seeker79, on 11 October 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I was claiming that sort of logic is silly.  "that's bs" is not a counter argument. You might as well say IB  profrin dosn't ease pain because it's just a chemical reaction. If you dream of peeches, then peeches are not real because it was only your dream. Are you starting to get it now?  Corolation my dear Watson is rarely what it seems at first innocent look.

With that said OOBES can be induced without low oxygen level or drugs . Neither conditions are necessary.

You are increasingly making less sense.
Yes OBE's can be induced in several other ways, and ALWAYS do they affect the same brain parts, which go through the same changes/deviant behavior. Understand this.

[Seeker79]

Render, on 11 October 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

You are increasingly making less sense.
Yes OBE's can be induced in several other ways, and ALWAYS do they affect the same brain parts, which go through the same changes/deviant behavior. Understand this.

So it's not just oxygen deprivation and always causes brain damage...... Hugh?
Same brain parts for all OBES.... Realy? Proof?

Edited by Seeker79, 11 October 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Render]

Seeker79, on 11 October 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

So it's not just oxygen deprivation and always causes brain damage...... Hugh?
Same brain parts for all OBES.... Realy? Proof?

The proof lies in all the experiments that have been done to induce OBE's, via various measures.
Magnetic influence, chemical influence, sensory deprivation,...etc...

And brain damage is a heavy term, which is why i prefer the "malfunction" term or "deviant" behaviour.

Edited by Render, 11 October 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[Seeker79]

Render, on 11 October 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

The proof lies in all the experiments that have been done to induce OBE's, via various measures.
Magnetic influence, chemical influence, sensory deprivation,...etc...

And brain damage is a heavy term, which is why i prefer the "malfunction" term or "deviant" behaviour.

Sources? What happened during these "OBES" what sort of controls we're in place? really have you looked at the experiments? can you please site a few? Have they been repeated? What sort of peer review has happened?

You see people say this kind of stuff all the time. Most skeptics will agree with me on that one. The problem of course is that 90% of the time it's heresy and the reality of the "experiment" is much is much more ambiguouse, non the less the logic and premise of the analysis of the data  and conclusions reached.

I have already addressed this half a dozen times In the last two days. We can Induce all sorts of experiences with many different avenues to induce. This says nothing about the experiences themselves other that they can be induced.

The problem of course is your premise. If you operate under the premise  that the brain is a producer of conciousness ( generally the materialist/reductionist view) then you will inturpret that the brain when tampered with changes conciousness.

If you operate under the premise that the brain is a receiver of conciousness ---- like a television or radio---- ( generally the spiritual premis), then you will inturpret that the brain when tampered with also changes perceptions of conciousness. Any kind of data from these "experiments" would support both views, therefore is irelevant.

Still.... I have yet to see a single artificially induced experience that even remotely resembles a full blown typical NDE. Find one and site it for me please. Yet still, it wouldnt change anything. OBEs happen under altered conciousness.... And yes there is a myriad of ways to alter conciousness. Just like a radio, it can be tuned to a plethora of channels.

Edited by Seeker79, 11 October 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Its Mii]

When I was about 13 I had an NDE.  I was with my parents fishing in a river, when I tried to follow my Dad who was fishing for bait i got caught in an underwater current. I was right below a dam, so the water pushed me down full force. I struggled for awhile,  I would fight to get to the top and then get pulled down again. I remember my dad having ahold of my feet a couple of times, and being pulled away by the water. Then for a while it was just me struggling. I remember the strangeness of the pain, more than aching from fighting with all my strength, the pressure of the water was crushing me. I remember hurting really bad, being really tired... then everything turned peaceful, I didn't feel pain anymore. It was like time stopped, the sound of the water stopped, and all I could see was rays of sunlight coming through  the water. It was like for a few seconds that's all that there was, the sun shining trough in quiet peacefulness. Then I was back, I was being shook and rushed out by the water, I washed up on a sandbar about 100 ft down the river.

To this day I try to understand what that was, was I leaving for good?? Was my body dead for a second? why didn't I feel anything?? Well no... I did feel something. I felt peace, caught dead in the middle of fear and struggle for that quick second everything around me didn't matter anymore, I was in peace.  I didn't have any figures coming at me, or loved ones around waiting for me. It was just me, in complete and total peace, taking in the warmth of the sun (is the only way I can explain it). Maybe that was chemical influence, and me taking the last grasps at life, holding on to the only thing I could see. However I don't think that accounts for that feeling. I can't really explain it, it was happiness, it was release.

[Render]

Seeker79, on 11 October 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Sources? What happened during these "OBES" what sort of controls we're in place? really have you looked at the experiments? can you please site a few? Have they been repeated? What sort of peer review has happened?


Still.... I have yet to see a single artificially induced experience that even remotely resembles a full blown typical NDE. Find one and site it for me please. Yet still, it wouldnt change anything. OBEs happen under altered conciousness.... And yes there is a myriad of ways to alter conciousness. Just like a radio, it can be tuned to a plethora of channels.

"Yet still, it wouldnt change anything."

So why would i bother helping you google things?
If you're not even gonna look at the first link i posted (which contains names and studies you can then look up yourself) then forgive me for not playing your google-helper, I have no obligation to do so.

I understand that you are not wiling to settle for induced experiments, that's fine and that is exactly why many research is still being done.
I think one of the biggest experiments is now going on, first results are expected next year i think. The AWARE study of the University of Southampton. http://www.horizonre...e.php?cat_id=38

Damn it, i googled.

[Seeker79]

Render, on 12 October 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

"Yet still, it wouldnt change anything."

So why would i bother helping you google things?
If you're not even gonna look at the first link i posted (which contains names and studies you can then look up yourself) then forgive me for not playing your google-helper, I have no obligation to do so.

I understand that you are not wiling to settle for induced experiments, that's fine and that is exactly why many research is still being done.
I think one of the biggest experiments is now going on, first results are expected next year i think. The AWARE study of the University of Southampton. http://www.horizonre...e.php?cat_id=38

Damn it, i googled.

Render, I have looked at all this material before. This is why I'm confident in asking for sources on such bold claims as you have made about these experiments. Im aware of the aware study? I can google it or return to the library in my garage which contains a plethora of books including skeptical ones ( Susan blackmore). Both of which I have already done many times. If you cant tell Im well educated on the matter. Not only that, I'm an experiencer aswell.

Continuing to parrot old rhetoric instead of addressing the arguments logically just keeps you on a hamster wheel.

For example.. Virtually no full blown type NDE experiences have been reported from these induction "experiments", yet they are eroniously used to invalidate real NDEs with typically illogical arguments. ( with the exceptions of DMT injections, but even then it lacks the same quality as NDEs see " spirit molecule") (If you have one, site it please) at most just vague singular changes in perceptions.

[XingWi]

Seeker79, on 11 October 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Oh brother... Not this old argument again. Because something can induce something has no bearing what so ever on the non induced state. We can probably induce the smell of flowers,  feeling hot, or sad emotions. None of this says anything about the existence of flowers, heat , or events that actually make us sad.

The logic goes like this. If we can artificially induce an NDE like experience, then NDEs are hullicinations. therefore a person haveing an NDE is haveing an artificial experience.

A gross logical erorr.
http://en.m.wikipedi...quent#section_1

You can also add to it this logical fallacy here:


Hasty Generalization


Note: Here generalization of the cause of OBE not the effect of drugs.



This doesn't mean I agree with what you said in Post#4 about heaven and hell.

Edited by XingWi, 12 October 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Kazahel]

spursfan, on 18 August 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

One person even had a bad NDE after a drug overdose when they nearly died and a positive NDE after nearly dying in an accident.

The only way i can see how this can happen is we somehow judge ourselves, or maybe are judged.

I had what I think was a NDE about 11 or 12 years ago after I overdosed. This is a post I made ages ago taken from here

http://www.unexplain...4

Kazahel, on 19 June 2006 - 12:58 PM, said:

I believe in them.. I think I have about five and I think one is a nun with a christmas star above her head instead of a halo.

One of the times I overdosed on heroin alone, I dropped and I dreamt that I was on a hospital bed on my knees curled up face down in the bed. I was getting poked on my right shoulder by my grandfather who had recently died(I didnt see him but I knew it was him) and I woke up enough to look up and over behind me to see a glass screen a few meters away with about five bright white figures behind it. It was like I was in one of those rooms that the newborns go into after they are born so the parents etc can look through the glass.. Anyway when I looked over my shoulder I saw five.. angels(white shapes of people)who I had the feeling were family but one was a short nun who had a bright white christmas star shinning above her head where the halo would go. It was very distinct and was the main thing I noticed when I looked through the glass at the figures of light. They had a nice feel about them and they were telling me to get up(I think just my grandad was but they were watching us) but I was so sleepy that I just put my head back into my hands on the bed to fall back alseep. Thats when my grandad started to poke me again but much harder and after about the 3rd decent poke I actually woke up in real life and tried to turn around to tell him to stop poking me. It really spun me out.

Anyway I woke up in the exact same position that I had been dreaming that I was in but I had my feet crossed at the back and had my hands crossed at the wrists and when I had dropped I mustve had my head on my wrists because I couldnt move either my hands or my feet because they had no circulation in them. It was really scary after I woke up because I couldnt move at all and when I first woke up I tried to pick up the phone to call my girlfriend but I couldnt hold it or dial or anything and I couldnt stand or walk or even use my hands to crawl. So I just lay there and breathed and thanked my Pop. Thanks Pop! style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

So yeah you could say it was just a drug induced dream or whatever but Im glad I dreamt I had them telling me to wake up. Truly hey.

So I do believe in them and even if it was just all wishful thinking I believe it kept me alive.

Edited by Kazahel, 13 October 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[Zaphod222]

Jello, on 25 August 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

This summer I had bacterial meningitis and the doctors gave me a 30% chance that I would die. They had me on morphine, hydrocodone, and dilaudid for a whole week. The night I decided to go to the hospital I woke up in the middle of the night with the worst headache imaginable and terrible shakes. I remember laying in bed slipping in and out of consciousness. As I actually got up and started toward the hallway to go downstairs I remember the hallway becoming longer in length and surrounded in a gray light. At the end I saw a black mass that could only be described as a demon. To my right I saw a thin shadowed outline that was I was unmistakeably positive to be my friend who had killed himself years ago. He led me past the dark mass and I made it downstairs where my mother rushed me to the emergency room.

And what does that prove? Exactly nothing. People have dreams and nightmares every night; all that reflects is brain activitiy.

[Hilander]

spursfan, on 18 August 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

I have read in the past about near death experiences. I am not too sure where i stand on them. I have read that near death experiences can be induced by the drug ketamine, for instance. This must mean that NDE's aren't a genuine experience of what happens when we die and that they are chemically induced ?.

It puzzles me though as to why some people go to hell in their NDE's ?. I don't know if this too happens under the influence of drugs ?. But why would anyone go to hell in their NDE's. Surely we all want to go to heaven and see our families etc, like poeple do in most NDE's ?. If the experience of NDE is wish fulfillment of our wish to have an afterlife then how come people have bad NDE's ?. One person even had a bad NDE after a drug overdose when they nearly died and a positive NDE after nearly dying in an accident.

The only way i can see how this can happen is we somehow judge ourselves, or maybe are judged.

Sorry if my question is stupid !.

There are no stupid questions just stupid answers.   I think there may be something to NDE's because sometimes when people are revived they can remember watching the doctor or paramedics working on them or remember seeing themselves just laying there.