Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 6 votes

Is Israel an Apartheid state?


  • Please log in to reply
319 replies to this topic

#106    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,802 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 16 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

What about the Palestinians? Is their living in the lands which they have lived in for the past 1,300 years illegitimate and should they be removed by any means necessary? In fact, the Palestinians are a mixture of peoples that has traced its ancestry to prehistoric times in the region. Quite frankly, the Palestinians were there FIRST!



What about the Palestinians? Is their living in the lands which they have lived in for the past 1,300 years illegitimate and should they be removed by any means necessary? In fact, the Palestinians are a mixture of peoples that has traced its ancestry to prehistoric times in the region. Quite frankly, the Palestinians were there FIRST!
How would you remove them?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#107    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,653 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:24 AM

View Postand then, on 16 May 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

How would you remove them?
Lesson #12 for Zionists:  Stop "removing" anybody.    It's POLICY that needs to suffer, not PEOPLE.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#108    XingWi

XingWi

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 329 posts
  • Joined:29 May 2012
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:49 AM

View Postand then, on 16 May 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

How would you remove them?

By ethnic cleansing of Occupied Palestine of its non-Jewish population.

The Nakba (disaster/calamity suffered by indigenous non-Jewish Palestinians) that started with the establishment of Israel in 1948, never ended. The forcible displacement of the indigenous Palestinian people from their homes continues till this day.

Here is a fine article on this issue with ample references. Everyone, please take time to read this full article:


The Ongoing Nakba: The continuous forcible displacement of the Palestinian people


Here is another one:

The Nakba is a past and a present, a continuous and developing process of Zionist colonization


Of course,I expect some here to scream, "propaganda...", like they usually do, but the truth is not hard to see for those who are willing to see it.


#109    Hammerclaw

Hammerclaw

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,010 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:East Tennessee, Just over the hill from Oak Ridge.

  • "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:58 AM

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan for the future government of Palestine. The Plan was described as a Plan of Partition with Economic Union which, after the termination of the British Mandate, would lead to the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8),

#110    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,653 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:15 AM

View Posthammerclaw, on 17 May 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan for the future government of Palestine. The Plan was described as a Plan of Partition with Economic Union which, after the termination of the British Mandate, would lead to the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181.
Which reminds me, Israel should exist in conformity to UN Res 181, yet another UN resolution Israel is in violation of.   With power comes responsibility.  It appears as if those who were given power the most generously might also be those who abuse that power the most.   Israel must use intellect and cunning to deal with its neighborhood problems just like the rest of the sane world.

Turning peoples' land into a barbed wire maze isn't cool.  That kind of foreign statist control over free populations is a supreme example of tyranny in the world today, it would never be tolerated in America for one second, it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in the world either.   Mr. Netanyahu, tear down those corridors and get off those roads.

US bureaucratic positions on Israel are unfortunately irreconcilable.   Future generations of politicians will have to decide that this shameless game we're playing has made us into global fools.   I want the US to be brilliant, not a terrorist target that consumes the government's (the peoples') resources and chews up our Constitution like it's just a g'ded piece of paper, all in the name of keeping us safe.    Well westerm bureaucrats, if you really want to keep us safe please change your foreign policies.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#111    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,522 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostYamato, on 16 May 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

So first you claim I don't know what Zionism is.  Then after I define it for you correctly you don't want to discuss it.  I think the correct response was to acknowledge that in fact I know exactly what it is.

Zionism has no place in the 21st century.   Zionist Jews needed a peaceful place to live free from oppression in the 20th century.   They would have found that in the US, but chose differently.  Now that they've chosen differently the onus is on them to assure they don't oppress anyone else and they've failed in that minimal task.   I am anti-Zionist because Zionist policies inhuman and despicable.  Change the policies, and the ideology may redeem itself yet, because many of us are forgiving people.

What do you want? applause? obviously you still use it in the wrong context. "Zionism has no place in 21st century" doesn't go together with "Zionism is the support of the Jews right for self-determination", because Jews in Israel still deserve it. It's as if claiming that the French right for self-determination has no place in 21st century.

And maybe America should be the location for Palestinians? or maybe one of the 22 neighboring Arab countries where most of the Palestinians live should be their "peaceful place" for the 21st century? no?

Zionist policies have managed to bring democracy and civil rights to a location on the planet which suffers from severe lack of those things. Palestinians themselves do not want that, and that's fine, but they wish to see their state ruled by the same undemocratic  minority-hunting regimes they and the rest of the Arab nations are ruled today. You pose yourself as a great warrior for human rights, yet for some odd reason you support nationalist movements with the exact different plan in their heads.

Let me ask you something - many neo-Nazi members come from very poor families. In a sense, they are the underdogs of their societies because many of them are the oppressed, poor people in those societies. Yet, you'd never support their nationalistic cause. Same goes for current Palestinian nationalism - it is filled with violence, hatred, racism and genocidal aspirations. Are most of the Palestinians poor? yes. Do they deserve their own state? I believe so, as do most Israelis and the current Zionist thinking.

I can not understand how you can support racism, violence, etc., while claiming to support human rights. I understand now that you have to make Israel and Zionism the bigger evil for you to support the Palestinians. However, when all else fails, the only conclusion, however unlikely, is the right one. And for you, the most unlikely conclusion is that Israel is indeed the liberal democracy that it is, that yeah, sometimes have to take measures to ensure it's safety, but not unlike many other liberal democracies.

I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#112    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,522 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:56 AM

View PostYamato, on 17 May 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Which reminds me, Israel should exist in conformity to UN Res 181, yet another UN resolution Israel is in violation of.   With power comes responsibility.  It appears as if those who were given power the most generously might also be those who abuse that power the most.   Israel must use intellect and cunning to deal with its neighborhood problems just like the rest of the sane world.

Turning peoples' land into a barbed wire maze isn't cool.  That kind of foreign statist control over free populations is a supreme example of tyranny in the world today, it would never be tolerated in America for one second, it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in the world either.   Mr. Netanyahu, tear down those corridors and get off those roads.

US bureaucratic positions on Israel are unfortunately irreconcilable.   Future generations of politicians will have to decide that this shameless game we're playing has made us into global fools.   I want the US to be brilliant, not a terrorist target that consumes the government's (the peoples') resources and chews up our Constitution like it's just a g'ded piece of paper, all in the name of keeping us safe. Well westerm bureaucrats, if you really want to keep us safe please change your foreign policies.

What the hell are you talking about.... omg... "barbed wire maze"... gosh. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. This thread is about the Israel is NOT and apartheid. I think we've managed to establish that pretty much. Now that it has been established, the Israeli bashers, defeated, try to abuse this thread and take it off-topic.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#113    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,653 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

What do you want? applause? obviously you still use it in the wrong context. "Zionism has no place in 21st century" doesn't go together with "Zionism is the support of the Jews right for self-determination", because Jews in Israel still deserve it. It's as if claiming that the French right for self-determination has no place in 21st century.

And maybe America should be the location for Palestinians? or maybe one of the 22 neighboring Arab countries where most of the Palestinians live should be their "peaceful place" for the 21st century? no?

Zionist policies have managed to bring democracy and civil rights to a location on the planet which suffers from severe lack of those things. Palestinians themselves do not want that, and that's fine, but they wish to see their state ruled by the same undemocratic  minority-hunting regimes they and the rest of the Arab nations are ruled today. You pose yourself as a great warrior for human rights, yet for some odd reason you support nationalist movements with the exact different plan in their heads.

Let me ask you something - many neo-Nazi members come from very poor families. In a sense, they are the underdogs of their societies because many of them are the oppressed, poor people in those societies. Yet, you'd never support their nationalistic cause. Same goes for current Palestinian nationalism - it is filled with violence, hatred, racism and genocidal aspirations. Are most of the Palestinians poor? yes. Do they deserve their own state? I believe so, as do most Israelis and the current Zionist thinking.

I can not understand how you can support racism, violence, etc., while claiming to support human rights. I understand now that you have to make Israel and Zionism the bigger evil for you to support the Palestinians. However, when all else fails, the only conclusion, however unlikely, is the right one. And for you, the most unlikely conclusion is that Israel is indeed the liberal democracy that it is, that yeah, sometimes have to take measures to ensure it's safety, but not unlike many other liberal democracies.

I'm sorry to disappoint you.
The Zionists perpetuating their policy on Palestinians don't deserve it, Jews in Israel or not.   They deserve to be behind bars, evicted of their stations.   And they're the ones in power right now so it's up to you to do something about it.

I support 800,000 innocent children Israel's tyrants besiege, just for starters.   That's no "ally" of anything I stand for as an American.   If your government was interested in peace that's what they'd push for but the bulldozers, barbed wire, numerous outposts housed by armed thugs, illegal settlements, corridors, and Jewish-only arteries on foreign soil gave you away.   :( Israel can't hide its crimes in the 21st century.   The words of your bureaucrats might mean something in a vacuum, not in view of Israel's policies.

Palestine is the "location" for Palestinians.   When the swiss-cheese the Israeli govt has turned it into is no longer, it can have an honest chance of statehood.  

Especially not with a Sabra like Netanyahu.
Sarkozy: I cannot stand him. He is a liar.
Obama: You're fed up with him but I have to deal with him every day.

Edited by Yamato, 17 May 2013 - 09:46 AM.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#114    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,522 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:53 AM

Quote

The Zionists perpetuating their policy on Palestinians don't deserve it, Jews in Israel or not.   They deserve to be behind bars, evicted of their stations.   And they're the ones in power right now so it's up to you to do something about it.
Obviously contradicted by this:

Quote

Are most of the Palestinians poor? yes. Do they deserve their own state? I believe so, as do most Israelis and the current Zionist thinking.

In the same post!

Do you even take the time to read these posts before you post  "replies"? I think it's quite clear you have no interest in a discussion, just ranting and posting propaganda. "Zionists this", "Zionists that", blah blah.

Quote

I support 800,000 innocent children your tyrants besiege for starters.
Nope, not us, their brethren Jordanians and Egyptians. Not even one single refugee camp was created in Israel after 1948 - they were all given Israeli citizenship. And now the refugee camps are all under Palestinian regimes which gets billions of dollars but instead of dismantling these camps and build cities in the vast empty areas in the West Bank, they continue to pump to those third generation refugees that they are soon going to "liberate" Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem from "da Joooz".

Quote

Palestine is the "location" for Palestinians.
Palestine in what you consider Palestine was an artificial League of Nations creation, which was then re-sized by the British, some 80 years ago. Until that time, Europeans used to call Jews in Europe as "Palestinians" and usually graffiti on the walls "Jews to Palestine". Nowadays they say "Jews out of Palestine".

Your true colors are obvious, no matter how much you try to disguise it.

I have no interest in keep taking this thread off topic. This thread is about Israel not being an apartheid state. This was established already. Stop abusing this thread with your vile propaganda.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#115    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,653 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:12 AM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Obviously contradicted by this:


In the same post!

Do you even take the time to read these posts before you post  "replies"? I think it's quite clear you have no interest in a discussion, just ranting and posting propaganda. "Zionists this", "Zionists that", blah blah.


Nope, not us, their brethren Jordanians and Egyptians. Not even one single refugee camp was created in Israel after 1948 - they were all given Israeli citizenship. And now the refugee camps are all under Palestinian regimes which gets billions of dollars but instead of dismantling these camps and build cities in the vast empty areas in the West Bank, they continue to pump to those third generation refugees that they are soon going to "liberate" Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem from "da Joooz".


Palestine in what you consider Palestine was an artificial League of Nations creation, which was then re-sized by the British, some 80 years ago. Until that time, Europeans used to call Jews in Europe as "Palestinians" and usually graffiti on the walls "Jews to Palestine". Nowadays they say "Jews out of Palestine".

Your true colors are obvious, no matter how much you try to disguise it.

I have no interest in keep taking this thread off topic. This thread is about Israel not being an apartheid state. This was established already. Stop abusing this thread with your vile propaganda.
I see no contradiction.   What do you think is contradictory?

The Israeli government has Gaza under siege and needs to be brought to heel by the international community.  

If "they" say "Jews out of Palestine" why do they say that?  Is it because the illegal settlers are Jews?   The simplest explanation might be best here.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#116    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,522 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:32 AM

Quote

The Israeli government has Gaza under siege and needs to be brought to heel by the international community.  
Right. Keep on with the off-topic ranting. All sieges are illegal, right? Oh no, oops, only ones done by Israel. Egyptian president Mursi sends his regards, btw.

Quote

If "they" say "Jews out of Palestine" why do they say that?
For the same reasons the like of you used to say "Jews to Palestine" some 70 years ago.

Regardless, this is well off-topic. If you want to bash Israel, just open another thread.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#117    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,802 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Obviously contradicted by this:


In the same post!

Do you even take the time to read these posts before you post  "replies"? I think it's quite clear you have no interest in a discussion, just ranting and posting propaganda. "Zionists this", "Zionists that", blah blah.


Nope, not us, their brethren Jordanians and Egyptians. Not even one single refugee camp was created in Israel after 1948 - they were all given Israeli citizenship. And now the refugee camps are all under Palestinian regimes which gets billions of dollars but instead of dismantling these camps and build cities in the vast empty areas in the West Bank, they continue to pump to those third generation refugees that they are soon going to "liberate" Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem from "da Joooz".


Palestine in what you consider Palestine was an artificial League of Nations creation, which was then re-sized by the British, some 80 years ago. Until that time, Europeans used to call Jews in Europe as "Palestinians" and usually graffiti on the walls "Jews to Palestine". Nowadays they say "Jews out of Palestine".

Your true colors are obvious, no matter how much you try to disguise it.

I have no interest in keep taking this thread off topic. This thread is about Israel not being an apartheid state. This was established already. Stop abusing this thread with your vile propaganda.
+1 and BRAVO!  It is vile and continuous and unacceptable.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#118    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postand then, on 16 May 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

How would you remove them?

Well, the Palestinians are the heart and soul of the Israeli-Arab conflict. They formed the original core of Israel's "problems" in the Middle East.

"...in many ways, the Palestinian dimension of the Arab-Israeli conflict is the heart of that conflict. Final solution... WILL NOT be possible until agreement is reached defining a just and permanent status for the Arab peoples who consider themselves Palestinians. " Harold H Saunders, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State For Near East Affairs, U.S. State Department, November 12 1975

"... that the problem of the Palestine Arab refugees has arisen from the DENIALof their  inalienable rights under the Charter of the United Nations and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." UN Resolution 2535B

"people of Palestine are entitled to equal rights and self-determination, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations." UN Resolution 2672

"the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination [who are] entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by ANY means at their disposal." UN Resolution 2649

Resolution 3089 declared that the Palestinians' inalienable rights included the linkage of their self-determination with the refugees' right of return.

"Palestinians were now fully backed by the world community with four major rights: the right of return, the right of self-determination, the right of struggle and the right to receive aid in their struggle." Ghayth Armanazi, "The Rights Of the Palestinians: The International Definition", Journal Of Palestine Studies, Spring 1974, 94-95


Well, there's my answer, and then.

Edited by B Jenkins, 17 May 2013 - 11:50 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#119    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,802 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 May 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Well, the Palestinians are the heart and soul of the Israeli-Arab conflict. They formed the original core of Israel's "problems" in the Middle East.

"...in many ways, the Palestinian dimension of the Arab-Israeli conflict is the heart of that conflict. Final solution... WILL NOT be possible until agreement is reached defining a just and permanent status for the Arab peoples who consider themselves Palestinians. " Harold H Saunders, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State For Near East Affairs, U.S. State Department November 12 1975

"... that the problem of the Palestine Arab refugees has arisen from the DENIALof their  inalienable rights under the Charter of the United Nations and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." UN Resolution 2535B

"people of Palestine are entitled to equal rights and self-determination, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations." UN Resolution 2672

"the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination [who are] entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by ANY meansat their disposal." UN Resolution 2649

Resolution 3089 declared that the Palestinians' inalienable rights included the linkage of their self-determination with the refugees' right of return.

"Palestinians were now fully backed by the world community with four major rights: the right of return, the right of self-determination, the right of struggle and the right to receive aid in their struggle." Ghayth Armanazi, "The Rights Of the Palestinians: The International Definition", Journal Of Palestine Studies, Spring 1974, 94-95


Well, there's my answer, and then.
Then it's gutless and as usual, no answer at all. HOW WOULD YOU REMOVE THE INTERLOPERS so the Palestinians can have their land again?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#120    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:00 PM

View Postand then, on 17 May 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Then it's gutless and as usual, no answer at all. HOW WOULD YOU REMOVE THE INTERLOPERS so the Palestinians can have their land again?

I already answered this question, grant the Palestinians the right of return and grant the Palestinians the right of self-determination in obedience to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Then there will be true motions of peace between the Arabs and Israelis. Please remember, the Zionists are the aliens and colonialists.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users