847 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

But were they only hunting, up north? If the submarine structures they found near Orkney are from Doggerland times, then most probably not:


A unique discovery of submerged man-made structures on the seabed off Orkney could help find solutions to rising sea levels, experts have said.



They said the well preserved stone pieces near the island of Damsay are the only such examples around the UK.

It is thought some of the structures may date back thousands of years.

Geomorphologist Sue Dawson said that people have survived and adapted in the past and it is that adaption to climate change that needs to be learned from.

One of the team, archaeologist Caroline Wickham-Jones, of the University of Aberdeen, said of their freezing investigations under the December seas off Orkney: "We have certainly got a lot of stonework. There are some quite interesting things. You can see voids or entrances.

http://www.unexplain...9


More here:

http://www.orkneyjar...-stone-remains/

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 July 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Abramelin]

Btw, it wasn't professor Bryony Coles who first named this submerged area "Doggerland", it was a Dutch guy called "Overwijn" (a historian of some sorts) who did, during a speech in 1941:

613 Overwijn. J.F., - De strekking van het O.L.B. Onze voorvaderen: de West-Friezen van Doggerland
(Verslag van twee lezingen voor het genootschap 'Yggdrasil'). - Het Vaderland 1941, 25 Maart en 10
Apr

http://www.oeralinda...almaOLBbibl.pdf

In his speech he says that it was C. Reid who coined the name Doggerland, but I have read Reid's book (Clement Reid, "Submerged Forests, 1913, chapter IV "The Dogger Bank") and he doesn't use that name:

In 1913 he published his book "Submerged Forests" in which he postulated a drowned land bridge between eastern England and the European mainland. His conceptual map of what is now called "Doggerland" turned out to be remarkably close to the currently known reality. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Clement_Reid

But as you can see on this pic here, Overwijn called part of it "Doggerbanksland"

http://i6.photobucke...otFriesland.jpg


And although the date on the image says 2193 v.Chr = 2193 BC (which is the date according to the Oera Linda Book, well, actually it is 2194 BC, but that's another story), in the second edition of his book he says the date is wrong, and should be 6250 BC, and calls it the "Cimbrian Flood":

http://i6.photobucke...land_6250BC.jpg


Which is quite a feat if you consider radiocarbon dating was still in its infant state (second edition from 1953).

Those who are interested in that Oera Linda Book know there is a huge thread about it here on UM (part -1 is 780 pages, part -2- already runs in the 50's). They, then, will no doubt also know that very often this Doggerland is being equated with the "Aldland" from the book, and yes, Atlantis.

That fantasy is only propagated by those who never read the original MS itself (or a literal translation), and only rely on what the 'imaginative writers' fabricated from it, like Robert Scrutton with his  "The Other Atlantis"
  "http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/085978021X.

The OLB itself says that "Aldland" was too far away from the European mainland. But as you can see for yourself, Europeans could walk to Doggerland. And even if they only think about Dogger Island (which renmained above sealevel for a 1000+ years after the flood) then still it is not "Aldland" for the book tells us these Europeans ("Frya's people) were excellent sailors. OK,unless the book meant to say the 'evil Finda people' on Aldland were landlubbers and could not sail, but that is very unlikely for any island nation.

And, there were no active volcanoes on Doggerland, and certainly no mountains (that rose and submerged in 2194 BC according to the story).

And... the OLB date of 2194 BC is many thousands of years off.... (and that from both the BC dates for the tsunamis I gave in a former post)

I just wanted to have it said.

[Peter Cox]

WOW - this is all very fascinating, loving the posts and on the most part they all pretty informative.

Well done all

[Abramelin]

Peter Cox, on 10 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

WOW - this is all very fascinating, loving the posts and on the most part they all pretty informative.

Well done all

Thanks Peter.

Alas, the later it gets, the less 'informative' my posts become. But... lots more creative !

Cheers.

[Abramelin]

A repeat:

He added that the latest research now suggested that the submerged landscape would have been populated by tens of thousands of people across a vast plain stretching from what is now Aberdeen to Denmark in the North and down to the English Channel, as far as the Channel Islands, to the South.

The findings suggest a picture of a land with hills and valleys, large swamps and lakes with major rivers dissecting a convoluted coastline. As the sea rose, the hills would have become an isolated archipelago of low islands.

Dr Bates revealed that researchers were investigating evidence of possible human burial sites, intriguing standing stones and a mass mammoth grave on what is now the sea bed of the North Sea.

http://www.scotsman....tland-1-2388819



And then this:

THE remains of a Neolithic stone circle that could rival the most impressive in Britain may have been found off the coast of Orkney.

Archaeologists surveying the seabed near the island chain’s famous Ring of Brodgar believe they could have discovered an earlier version just 500 metres offshore from the major tourist attraction.

Preliminary findings from an investigation seeking previously hidden historical sites in the area have raised hopes that prehistoric structures built up to 5,000 years ago have survived, even though they were submerged under the waves by rising sea levels. Marine surveys – using remote sensing and seismic profiling techniques – have revealed “anomalies” which could be man-made structures around 12 feet under water.

Seismic images taken in the Loch of Stenness appear to show a large circular feature in the water south of the Ring of Brodgar, the third-largest stone circle in the British Isles after Avebury and Stanton Drew in England and thought to date back to 3000-2000BC.

==

Dr Richard Bates, from the Department of Earth Sciences at St Andrews University, said the feature is about 90 metres in diameter, similar to the size of the main Ring of Brodgar. He said that if it is a man-made feature, it is likely to predate the influx of the sea into the Stenness Loch basin.

The investigation has also looked at the seabed around Hoy, Hoxa and the Bay of Firth. Images show how the Bay of Firth around Damsay has changed from mostly land in the Mesolithic period 8,000 years ago to the late Neolithic/Bronze Age around 2000 BC when the sea had filled in the lower-lying areas, leaving Damsay as a tidal island.

http://www.scotsman....rkney-1-1900390



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Edited by Abramelin, 12 July 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Abramelin]

'Discovery of a lifetime': Stone Age temple found in Orkney is 800 years older than Stonehenge - and may be more important The site contains 100 buildings, forming a 'temple precinct'.

-Stonehenge may not have been the centre of Neolithic culture after all

-It could take decades to fully explore and examine



A 5000-year-old temple in Orkney could be more important than Stonehenge, according to archaeologists.


The site, known as the Ness of Brodgar, was investigated by BBC2 documentary A History of Ancient Britain, with presenter Neil Oliver describing it as ‘the discovery of a lifetime’.

So far the remains of 14 Stone Age buildings have been excavated, but thermal geophysics technology has revealed that there are 100 altogether, forming a kind of temple precinct.

Until now Stonehenge was considered to have been the centre of Neolithic culture, but that title may now go to the Orkney site, which contains Britain’s earliest known wall paintings.

Oliver said: ‘The excavation of a vast network of buildings on Orkney is allowing us to recreate an entire Stone Age world.

‘It’s opening a window onto the mysteries of Neolithic religion.’

Experts believe that the site will give us insights into what Neolithic people believed about the world and the universe.

Nick Card, an archaeologist from the University of the Highlands and Islands, said: ‘It’s an archaeologist’s dream site. The excitement of the site never fades.

‘This site is a one-off.’

Professor Mark Edmonds from the University of York, meanwhile, describes the excavation as ‘a site of international importance’.
Some parts of the temple are 800 years older than Stonehenge, which lies 500 miles to the south in Wiltshire.

The site is very close to the Ring of Brodgar stone circle and the standing stones of Stenness and is surrounded by a wall believed to have been 10-feet high.[see next post: could they also have built dikes??]

Archaeologists found red zigzag lines on some of the buildings’ inner walls that they believe is Stone Age art – the oldest ever found.

So far only around 10 per cent of the site has been examined – and it could take decades to uncover and analyse everything there.

http://www.dailymail...Stonehenge.html

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Edited by Abramelin, 12 July 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Abramelin]

Now we should not forget that all these submerged structures appear to be lots younger than the date of 6150 BC as they are close to the present coast which may have been above see level for thousands of years later.

Or... with a bit of luck the theory of Jean Deruelle proves to be right after all: that (a) part(s) of Doggerland were/was being protected by dikes (up to 3000 BC) as he suggested.

In that case we are in for a few real surprizes.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 July 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Continental Shelf of NW Europe (based on modern bathymetry) :





The Continental Shelf of NW Europe according to Athanasius Kircher, 1675 (!!!):



http://www.themaphou...125&ref=WLD3534

[JohnD]

I see you're still adding to this great thread - I haven't checked in for too long and it seems I have some catching up to do...

That last post - interesting...very interesting... Mind you, Kircher's one of those characters whose name crops up in connection to various bits of historical weirdity - he drew a famous map of "Atlantis" and may have been one of the people who had possession of the Voynich Manuscript at one point. Jesuit, don'cha know?

[Abramelin]

JohnD, on 12 August 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I see you're still adding to this great thread - I haven't checked in for too long and it seems I have some catching up to do...

That last post - interesting...very interesting... Mind you, Kircher's one of those characters whose name crops up in connection to various bits of historical weirdity - he drew a famous map of "Atlantis" and may have been one of the people who had possession of the Voynich Manuscript at one point. Jesuit, don'cha know?

Hi John,

Yes, I try to add whatever might be relevant, even if it looks farout, lol.

And I know about Kircher's most famous map of Atlantis, but hardly anyone knows about his other map you can see when you click on the link in my former post.

Btw, his map shows the Celtic Shelf or North Sea Shelf (or whatever I should call it) and I found that kind of amazing considering he drew that map in the 17th century.

Lol, you are not suggesting Kircher had access to some sort of 'secret knowledge'??

[JohnD]

Abramelin, on 13 August 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Lol, you are not suggesting Kircher had access to some sort of 'secret knowledge'??

I suggest nothing - I merely chuck unfounded innuendoes around. Seems good enough for most people who write *books* on these sorts of topics. ;D

But agreed re Kircher's map of the continental shelf - that is kind of hard to explain (maybe someone will offer a "rational" theory on how he did it?)

I don't know if this is strictly relevant or whether or not the thread already contains this info somewhere, but I just came across this relatively recent blog post and saw it mentioned Doggerland among other things. Mainly, though, it's another sunken land/drowned city myth, this one from Brittany. Maybe you will find something useful or suggestive in it:

http://grabouilla.wo...ty-of-brittany/

Quote: "We know from modern British geological surveys that in the V century, around 431 AD, a cataclysm engulfed many parts of Brittany and Cornwall (including the Cymric Cantre’r Gwaelod and the cornish Lyonesse), provoking a sudden collapse of the coastal lands,"

We do?!

Edited by JohnD, 15 August 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Abramelin]

Well, considering the last remnant of Doggerland must have submerged at 5500 BC, I don't think anything happening around 431 AD will have much to do with it.

++++++++

EDIT:

Nice to see they used MY pics for that website..

The one with the red line is mine:

http://www.unexplain...90#entry3989822

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/Abramelinn/Miscellaneous/Doggerland_5750BC_Carnac.jpg

And my drawing was based on a screenshot ( I added a red line to depict a sea route) of an interactive map:

http://www.unexplain...75#entry3119589

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 August 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[JohnD]

The 431AD claim did seem a bit, well, "out there"...

Seriously, you should tackle them about using your images unattributed (I'm afraid I didn't make the connection myself ) - they should at least give you a credit if they're going to use them...

[Abramelin]

JohnD, on 17 August 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

The 431AD claim did seem a bit, well, "out there"...

Seriously, you should tackle them about using your images unattributed (I'm afraid I didn't make the connection myself ) - they should at least give you a credit if they're going to use them...

About giving credit, read this post of mine:

http://www.unexplain...90#entry3991348

[Abramelin]

Doggerland

The book 'Britain Begins' tells the story of the landscape and people who lived in these islands from the end of the last great ice-age (when they were still part of mainland Europe) right up to the end of the Saxon period. It's a great read.

I'm currently working my way through 'Britain Begins', Barry Cunliffe's latest book. Sir Barry Cunliffe is a well-regarded archaeologist working at Oxford University. In fact he's Emeritus Professor of European Archaeology at the University's Institute of Archaeology.

In the book he traces the origins of human occupation in what is now the British Isles, though at the time of the early settlements some 10 000 years ago, most the North Sea was an extension of the North European Plain and Britain was part of the European continent.



Part of an illustration from the book (right) shows some of the Atlantic coastline of Europe around 30 000 years ago, along with the ice sheets in grey and today's coastlines in orange. (Doggerland in my title refers to the central part of what is now the North Sea. It was an area of rolling hills and river valleys.)

Although the ice retreated almost completely from Britain by 15 000 years ago, sea levels remained low for some time and migrating hunter-gatherer communities would have been able to live in the new landscapes right across areas that are now the English Channel and the North Sea.

What a fascinating insight into a time before history began. Although we don't know the details of life in those days, Cunliffe is able to draw a lively picture in a general way. He writes of the separation of Ireland...

http://jesus.scilla....doggerland.html


===

The ancient Celts believed they were descended from Father Dis (Dis Pater), a god of the dead who resided in the west where the sun set. Today, ideas of our prehistoric origins are more likely based on ocean core samples, radio-carbon dating, and archeological artifacts. But as Barry Cunliffe reminds us in Britain Begins, an archaeologist writing of the past must be constantly aware that the past is, in truth, unknowable. Like the myth-making Celts, we too create stories about our origins, based on what we know today.

Cunliffe here offers readers a vision of both worlds, looking at new myths and old, as he tells the fascinating story of the origins of the British and the Irish, from around 10,000 BC to the eve of the Norman Conquest. Using the most up-to-date archaeological evidence together with new work on DNA and other scientific techniques which help us to trace the origins and movements of these early settlers, Cunliffe offers a rich narrative account of the first islanders--who they were, where they came from, and how they interacted with one another. Underlying this narrative is the story of the sea, and Cunliffe paints a fascinating picture of early ships and sails and of the surprising sophistication of early navigation. The story told by the archaeological evidence is enhanced by historical texts, such as Julius Caesar's well-known if rather murky vision of Britain. Equally interesting, Cunliffe looks at the ideas of Britain's origins formed by our long-ago ancestors themselves, when they used what scraps there were, gleaned from Biblical and classical texts, to create a largely mythological origin for the British.

http://www.amazon.co...=britain begins


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Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2012 - 02:43 PM.