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Florida Teen murdered by


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#16    Copasetic

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 18 March 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

The use of deadly force against an unarmed (alleged) assailant was justified with Florida's "stand your ground" law, which permits the use of deadly force if the person believes they at risk of their life.

While this law may provide benefit to some - little old ladies or other vulnerable people - it was fiercly debated before introduction because of the relative ease of it's abuse.

I am concerned how Zimmerman, who was previously arrested and charged with assault of a police officer, was able to 'plea bargain' his way out of that charge to leave a clean criminal record and permit his licensing for carrying a firearm.

Leo, good points about the "stand your ground/dirty Harry laws". I am a proud gun owner (and safe one to boot), but these "stand your ground" laws that keep popping up in some states really seem to me, to be used to protect aggressors.

A 28 year old, 240 lb man follows, chases and then attempts to detain (all against the orders of the police) a 140 lb kid who was probably scared of a strange man following him in an SUV then chasing him; tries to physically detain said kid (who he has no authority to detain--neighborhood watch doesn't give you any special police privileges) then "feels threatened" by the kid so shoots him and claims "self-defense".....

I find it disturbing that one could basically pick a fight with another human being, not breaking any laws, pull out a gun and shoot them, then claim it was all self-defense.

Further I find it very disturbing that a 17 year old kid with a bag of skittles and can of soda or tea (I mean what kind of "terrible" picture does that paint of a kid?) can be considered such an "imminent threat" that deadly force is justifiable one.

Another great point about Zimmerman's history too. As a gun owner, I strongly support responsible gun ownership. People with a history of physical altercations with law enforcement shouldn't be allowed to own guns, period. People with obvious issues with anger management shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

I can only hope this issue gets resolved quickly in a legal manner and justice is done for the family. I also hope that states with these laws on the books take a good look at how they are being used.


#17    susieice

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

So anyone in Florida can shoot anyone they please as long as the victim is anywhere around them and they can say they felt threatened? That cop is lucky he's still around.

Here's a link of the states with a "Dirty Harry" law. Most are called Castle Laws, which allows the use of deadly force to protect your home and property. Will not be visiting states that will allow someone to shoot me because I'm walking down the street if at all possible.
http://askville.amaz...uestId=36523919

Edited by susieice, 18 March 2012 - 04:43 PM.

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#18    Copasetic

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:27 PM

View Postand then, on 18 March 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Even if this is the case, and you're right that it's plausible, why the use of deadly force on someone unarmed?  Doesn't pass the smell test.  Even some of the folks Zimmerman was supposed to be protecting had complained about his tactics.  I see Sanford becoming a must see destination for representatives of several federal agencies for awhile.  Their city taxes will probably go up to pay for the settlement they'll be paying, also.

View Postsusieice, on 18 March 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

That surprised me also. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following the teen. He is not a policeman. If there had been need, 911 would have dispatched one. Why was this not done?
@ bigtroutak- Even if you did start an altercation with a stranger who was following you in the dark, it would be you acting in self-defense, not the person chasing you.
I see no excuse for this shooting. Thank goodness it was witnessed by people who reported what they saw on 911 tapes also. Very upsetting to watch and unsettling to read about.

Exactly. Zimmerman had no authority to stop or detain anyone, he acted as the agressor--Whether he was "winning or loosing" doesn't matter, if you start a fight with someone you can't claim "self-defense" then pull out a gun and shoot them--simply because you've started a fight and don't like the way it is going. If that is allowed to stand, it sets a dangerous precedent for how these "laws" can be used.

Susieice--If you listen to the first 911 (they are very disturbing to listen too, fyi) recording the dispatcher clearly tells Zimmerman that a unit has been dispatched to location and he is to not follow or chase the teen who "looks suspicious". Zimmerman seemed too concerned that "these "as*&^(#S always get away" to listen to the though...

Edited by Copasetic, 18 March 2012 - 04:28 PM.


#19    Babe Ruth

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:39 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 18 March 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

The use of deadly force against an unarmed (alleged) assailant was justified with Florida's "stand your ground" law, which permits the use of deadly force if the person believes they at risk of their life.

While this law may provide benefit to some - little old ladies or other vulnerable people - it was fiercly debated before introduction because of the relative ease of it's abuse.

I am concerned how Zimmerman, who was previously arrested and charged with assault of a police officer, was able to 'plea bargain' his way out of that charge to leave a clean criminal record and permit his licensing for carrying a firearm.


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#20    little_dreamer

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:18 AM

"Stand your ground" law would probably not apply here if he was on a public street and approached or tried to intimidate with his gun.  

I think the family will probably file a wrongful death lawsuit if no criminal charges are filed.

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#21    and then

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:51 AM

This shooting in Florida brings to mind another - unrelated event- from years ago in Pensacola, Fla.  A guy saw his neighbors fighting in the their front yard and became alarmed at how violent it was getting.  He goes and gets his pistol and fires a shot into the air to stop them.  They, 3 of them, chase him into his house, down the hall into his bedroom and are coming at him as he backs into a closet.  Boom, boom, boom.  Last guy he shot in the BACK.  All three dead -  Grand jury did not indict.

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#22    susieice

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

View Postand then, on 19 March 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

This shooting in Florida brings to mind another - unrelated event- from years ago in Pensacola, Fla.  A guy saw his neighbors fighting in the their front yard and became alarmed at how violent it was getting.  He goes and gets his pistol and fires a shot into the air to stop them.  They, 3 of them, chase him into his house, down the hall into his bedroom and are coming at him as he backs into a closet.  Boom, boom, boom.  Last guy he shot in the BACK.  All three dead -  Grand jury did not indict.
They chased him into his home with intent to hurt him. This does sound like self-defense.
Over the weekend it sounds like there has been a lot of outrage over what happened to this boy. Zimmerman was a self-appointed block watch type person and was not affiliated with any police or civilian organisation that I can see.
http://news.yahoo.co...--abc-news.html

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#23    Babe Ruth

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:07 PM

View Postand then, on 19 March 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

This shooting in Florida brings to mind another - unrelated event- from years ago in Pensacola, Fla.  A guy saw his neighbors fighting in the their front yard and became alarmed at how violent it was getting.  He goes and gets his pistol and fires a shot into the air to stop them.  They, 3 of them, chase him into his house, down the hall into his bedroom and are coming at him as he backs into a closet.  Boom, boom, boom.  Last guy he shot in the BACK.  All three dead -  Grand jury did not indict.

Great story.


#24    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:14 AM

Quote

Exactly. Zimmerman had no authority to stop or detain anyone

dont want to derail, but, dont citizens have the right to restrain someone if they believe a crime has been committed?  :mellow:


#25    susieice

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:16 AM

Depends. Restrain yes. Shoot and kill no.

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#26    conspiracybeliever

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 20 March 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

dont want to derail, but, dont citizens have the right to restrain someone if they believe a crime has been committed?  :mellow:

Why would he think a crime had been committed? All the kid was doing was walking down the street at night. Does that mean he committed a crime? This guy should be in prison.


#27    and then

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:02 PM

View Postsusieice, on 19 March 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

They chased him into his home with intent to hurt him. This does sound like self-defense.
Over the weekend it sounds like there has been a lot of outrage over what happened to this boy. Zimmerman was a self-appointed block watch type person and was not affiliated with any police or civilian organisation that I can see.
http://news.yahoo.co...--abc-news.html
I agree.  So did the Grand Jury.  They even said that he felt his life was in danger to the point that he fired blindly, killing the last person as he was turning his back to him.  They were a foolish group to do such a thing and I have no issues with the citizens of Florida in that case.  This guy was just some out of control Dirty Harry wannabe it seems. The city of Sanford sounds like a left over from the "good ole boys" leadership of the 60s and 70s.  Sounds like it's about to be dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming.

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#28    FLOMBIE

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:11 PM

It is good to see that legal gun owners use their weapons with the greatest responsibility and how the guns ensure personal safety.


#29    Rafterman

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 20 March 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

It is good to see that legal gun owners use their weapons with the greatest responsibility and how the guns ensure personal safety.

I'm assuming you haven't looked up the full statistics because if you had, you wouldn't make such inane comments.

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#30    libstaK

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:03 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 20 March 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

dont want to derail, but, dont citizens have the right to restrain someone if they believe a crime has been committed?  :mellow:

I just heard on the news the poor kid had a bag of skittles, a can of coke and a phone on him - was he going to "twitter" Zimmerman to death, shove a bag of skittles down his throat or force him to blow soda bubbles out of his nose?  Sorry - not aimed at you just saying in general to the forum it seems this kid was "armed to the teeth" with a drink and skittles, that's not how I picture someone up to no good walking around - the criminal types like to keep their hands free and pack at least a couple of knuckle dusters (at the very least, or something similar)  .

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