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UFOs with Speeds up to 27,000 MPH

ufosfbi green fireballs los alamos project twinkle

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#316    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:39 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 03 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

I always thought of him as a joker, but not a particularly funny one, just a wise guy who gets his jollies by needling people.

I understand. I did not understand where he was coming from at first as well, but when I looked closely at what I had taken for mirth, I was rather shocked at the thought and in depth information presented.

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 03 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

As for the cases, I always thought the ones that they filmed and tracked with the theodolites were important, as were the ones that followed Cmdr. McLauglin's missile.  

With regards to the theodolite cases, in this thread, the reasoning really does appear to be driven by paranoia as opposed to logic.

Quote

"The fireballs mysteriously ceased appearing before the theodolites could go to work.  Dr. Mirarchi concludes that spies must have tipped off the saucers' home base."  

That sounds very much like war talk exaggerated. Which seems supported by the conclusions drawn at the time by several notable people that the aliens must be coming from Venus and Mars - more a territorial fear.

McLaghlin's UFO wasn't a fireball was it? His evaluations were clearly speculations, he and Clyde Tomanbaugh indeed concluded if they were alien ships that they most likely came from Mars.


LINK <<- Not sure  if the link will go to the right page, of not, page 98 states the claim.


View PostTheMacGuffin, on 03 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

The strangest UFOs of all were the ones that tripped the radiation detectors at Mt. Palomar observatory, and the small ones that were chasing around Ft. Hood for hours.  

Agreed, but again, does not the size indicate a Hessdalen type phenomena?

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 03 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Microm just brushed all those off with a sentence or two, which never impresses me.  It's also discourteous but that's the world we live in.

I can't see that being the case. He specifically refers to and quotes the Koi conclusion offered in part by yourself. If I may, when you stated that Plasmas were discounted, he provided documentation that challenged that conclusion. Namely the Condig report and the Twinning memo, which seem to revolve roughly around the time frame in question. When you brought up Issac Koi's rebuttal, he directed you to a thread where Koi himself offers the same view again over at ATS.
I understand your offence to the death Caricature, as they say it takes all types and mcrom most certainly is a unique personality. But that is a fair call on your behalf I grant. Dark humour is an acquired taste.

I think, and please correct me if I am wrong mcrom, is that the links both state (post #225 mcrom) well after the quote provided in your post that none of the work considered poor makes the subject invalid, it in fact advocates a scientific viewpoint.e.

Quote

Conclusion

Even on a preliminary review of its content, numerous severe flaws in the Condign Report can be readily identified.

As stated above, the severe flaws in the Condign Report highlighted below do _not_ mean that the plasma theory (or any other theory) is necessarily wrong, and they certainly do not mean that the claims that extraterrestrials are visiting Earth are true. Publications of such sloppy quality give skepticism a bad name.

and that the evaluations despite the harsh review are being validated today with the QUT Paper, both coming to the same conclusions that conditions created by a fireball ignite atmospheric plasmas. Even ones that last a couple of seconds would make a significant show when traveling at 30 times the speed of a bullet. That is still a great deal of ground covered in a short time, and something we would consider extraordinary.

Edited by psyche101, 04 December 2012 - 12:46 PM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#317    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

View PostHMS Dreadnought, on 03 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Fascinating subject as ever TMcG, keep up the good work, always enjoy reading the cases you bring to light. :tu:

I agree, a vast array of cases to read and consider. McGuffin always provides a thorough and intriguing read.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#318    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 03 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

There were probably hundreds of eyewitnesses and more reports than anyone could keep track of.

Some of them were even seen to go straight up into space at very high speeds, which is how many of them "disappear".  Anyone who says that never happens is just telling you something completely bogus.


I agree as well, from the link provided by Quillius:

Posted Image




A most spectacular phenomena.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#319    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

deep bows psyche... thanks for your kind words (for understanding me / my position :P ) appreciated mate... :nw:

Not at all, I rather enjoy your unique perspective. It has caught me off guard, and I rather like surprises, even slightly embarrassing ones ;) I really think you bring something good to the forum, and I enjoy your posts, and our conversations. Very much so.

And I have always appreciated that you have considered, and complied with requests that avoid getting me strung out, like 911. Your a good with me mate. :tu:

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

mcg is having a tough time swallowing that... i have already stated a few times in this thread that the data from the old cases is simply insufficient to make any positive id... and that i'm not here to say what they definitely were, but rather what cannot be dropped from the qualifying candidate list... but somehow he thinks that i'm ignoring the old cases... he very well knows the difference between meteors & plasma formations, but in the process of ridiculing the labeling of natural phenomenon he portrays himself as a confident confused guy somehow... is it because of the outdated stuff he references? i dunno... :wacko:

Indeed and I can see that, I hopefully have made the point clearer, hopefully we "old school guys" can come to an agreement ;) There is indeed powerful data from many studies ranging from the time of La Paz to right here and now, indicating that if La Paz chose to scratch this from the list, he was thinking about it decades before others, but as modern technology is starting to show, somewhat hobbled by science. I repeat that I would love for La Paz to be able to give an evaluation with todays findings which support what seems to be even La Paz's initial evaluation for him to eventually disqualify some instances as meteors.

You have given me a challenge or two in the past. I do not think MacGuffin realises what a strong ally you could be. ;)

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#320    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

View Postquillius, on 03 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

whilst on the subject of plasma and Erling strand, I love this part of his interview a while...

9/ In a recent interview, you have stated that “…you have had several daytime observations, where you have seen flying discs, etc…”Even if not related to the HP, could you please provide more details on such sightings? I have had only three daytime observations, so the word “several” is wrong. I have however seen several unexplainable “things”, – such which goes into another category than HP or ufo. Two of those three observations was a flying disc. The third was a “black hole”. I did not get the impression that I was looking onto a black object, it was more like a hole into something completely black. This “black hole” changed size all the time.
Thanks Erling for this interview and you success with your Project Hessdalen


this alone IMO shows that not all 'flying objects' that are unidentified could fall into the UAP field unless we are to really force the old square peg into that round (disk shaped) hole...

Teodorani himself says that even though there is many elements recorded that show plasma characteristics, there is STILL and overlap of something else......

So I would in summary say that not only can they not confirm that the phenomenon in Hessdalen is a form of plasma, if they could they would still have an unknown that overlaps. So I think its a little way off yet to label all UFO's as plasma when the phenomenon itself that portrays these important charachteristics (mettalic, speed etc) has not been determined as plasma...


Gidday mate

I think the interview seems cut short. Do you know if a longer version, or more recent exists, you seem to have a knack for links. In a paragraph above it, he calls these "Phenomena" not "Craft" :

Quote

5/ Beside the three main types of HP (i.e. white or blue flashed; big yellow lights, several lights together); could you tell us more about the others kinds of sightings that are reported? Could provide a recent testimony for illustrating this? These three different types consists each of many different types of lights. For instance “big yellow light”, can have many different shapes, lifetime, moving behavior etc. There are also some types which does not fit into any of these “big” boxes. There are daylight observations, which are not a light. But there are very few of such sightings. It can be different solutions to all of these types of phenomena.

Personally I fid the "Black Hole" rather interesting.

Cheers.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#321    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

View Postbee, on 04 December 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

.


sadly mcrom...you have now reached rock bottom.... :cry:

.


I think that honour is yours today.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#322    psyche101

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:59 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 December 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Psyche was on here saying that we should really take him seriously, but somehow I could never bring myself to do that.'

Now everyone can see why.  He also told me to kill myself, just for "laughs".

I do not know, I think you handle yourself just fine. I reckon your a tough old bird ;) Nobody can dispute that if a case is mentioned that you are probably the best bet on this forum to have heard of it. And as I always say, it's obvious that you know the case, you do not just Google. You do deserve respect for your vast repository.

Edited by psyche101, 04 December 2012 - 01:00 PM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#323    quillius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

hiya quillius... what they might have thought (individually or collectively ~ a debatable can of worms itself) is a different matter altogether i.e. they could have had various beliefs based on their observations back then... but the very fact that they were still looking for answers in a paranoid manner tells me that they never figured out anything about the phenomenon in the first place imo


morning! however we do not know if it is just what they 'thought' as opposed to 'knew'. I dont agree with the paranoid manner being due to having figured nothing out, it could quite as easily (if not more so) be because they knew they were dealing with an unknown ET who may or may not have war like intent...this would make me paranoid far less so than an unknown.

having said all that what in particular makes you think it was a paranoid manner in which they looked for answers?

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:


we always look upon them to be in control of what they're doing, perhaps the reason why we think they knew what they were talking about... do you think that is the case?
  I would just think it strange that they would jump to the ET conclusion when they must have many 'brains' amongst the ranks...look at here on UM and the resounding unwillingness to take that leap of faith without scientific proof....why would the powers that be not be the same way inclined...its quite a big thing isnt it to say ET has visited without some robust information/data with or without knowledge on UAPs gained over the years


View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:


even if, say, roswell was a reality, which i doubt... how could that disqualify the fact that plasmas exhibit all the ufo'y characteristics?

hmmmm, I would say firstly I didnt think it was fact that plasma for example can appear mettalic and solid in structure....granted there is a strong suggestion that a phenomena observed in Hessdalen (which may be at best be a type of unknown plasma) has displayed these characteristics


#324    quillius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:30 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:


i don't believe that all uaps are plasmas... we still haven't figured out what going on in our skies and that we still have a lot to uncover... uap to me is unidentified aerial phenomena....

but believe that all UFOs are UAP's, right?  (obviously excluding birds planes venus etc)


#325    quillius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:39 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

i don't get that...

well, neither do I really however I would guess it is a line of thought based around the Abrahamson model which I believe has restricted conditions....but I could well be talking out of my behind here so need to read up on old notes/docs.


View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:



i wonder how many of those characteristics were recorded in each case study... :unsure2:


pass

View Postmcrom901, on 03 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:


something we can all agree to.... :tsu:

and that there was a cover up :) (based on either belief OR knowledge)


#326    quillius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 04 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Gidday mate

I think the interview seems cut short. Do you know if a longer version, or more recent exists, you seem to have a knack for links. In a paragraph above it, he calls these "Phenomena" not "Craft" :

Personally I fid the "Black Hole" rather interesting.

Cheers.

Gidday mate, here is a link to interview (havent looked for longer version yet) plus the couple that were by a UM member..

http://www.uapreporting.org/?p=1589

http://www.unexplain...n.php?id=207536

http://www.unexplain...n.php?id=200292

:tu:


#327    quillius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

This is quite an interesting read, with Erling Strand, Haines and Vallee all in one
I remember a while back where Vallee alluded to 'trace evidence' whilst giving a talk at a conference.....I  think this is what he was talking about.....(approx page 208)

http://www.scientifi...rrock.pdf?q=ufo


#328    mcrom901

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:41 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 04 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

and that the evaluations despite the harsh review are being validated today with the QUT Paper, both coming to the same conclusions that conditions created by a fireball ignite atmospheric plasmas. Even ones that last a couple of seconds would make a significant show when traveling at 30 times the speed of a bullet. That is still a great deal of ground covered in a short time, and something we would consider extraordinary.

hiya matey :tu:  absolutely, the condign report had hypothesized that..

"It also seems reasonable to assume that any material which, having sped through the atmosphere at enormous velocity and attained a very high ionisation temperature, must exist in gaseous form before dispersing. It is postulated that it may, instead of (or as well as) forming a gaseous plasma viewed as a visible luminous stream, form (due to variations in atmospheric density and other factors) a single or several plasma bodies."

"Many meteors are of no consequence being microscopic in size. They would not produce a plasma with sufficient energy. However, some of the meteors which have reached the surface as meteorites are known to contain magnetic and other elements. On entering the atmosphere they may already have properties (e.g. electrical or magnetic currents) of unknown magnitude, of which we are unaware and which may influence their final form as they come towards the earth."

"They will either completely burn up, impact as meteorites or, from the rationale above, it is therefore suggested that under certain conditions the residual material from a meteor could form a buoyant plasma or 'fireball' in the lower atmosphere"


with key findings....

"It is noted that the co-incidence of peak meteor dates and UAP reports is statistically very high and cannot be due to chance"

http://www.mod.uk/NR...56to71_ch3b.pdf

and that's a decade before the austrailian paper validated some of those assumptions... granted that there might be several errors in the above report, but i don't think it disqualifies their objective stance... another mistake which koi was making was that he was setting up prerequisites for the existence of plasmas to begin with i.e. arguments regarding atmospheric conditions, lightning, etc... i don't think that's a wise move provided we are still learning about said phenomena.. in any case, that's why i had referenced persinger's tectonic strain theory.... :st


#329    mcrom901

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:51 AM

View Postquillius, on 04 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

well, neither do I really however I would guess it is a line of thought based around the Abrahamson model which I believe has restricted conditions....but I could well be talking out of my behind here so need to read up on old notes/docs.

hiya q... if i'm not mistaken it's an outdated stance regarding the very short existence of 'ball lightning' i.e. conventional plasma

View Postquillius, on 04 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

and that there was a cover up :) (based on either belief OR knowledge)

let's say for a moment that et was indeed flying in the skies... are they just appearing to display their super flying capabilities? is there anything objective which resembles intelligence in what we have observed to date?

Edited by mcrom901, 05 December 2012 - 03:06 AM.


#330    psyche101

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:44 AM

View Postquillius, on 04 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Gidday mate, here is a link to interview (havent looked for longer version yet) plus the couple that were by a UM member..

http://www.uapreporting.org/?p=1589

http://www.unexplain...n.php?id=207536

http://www.unexplain...n.php?id=200292

:tu:


Thanks mate. I had seen them, and now that you have linked them, we can see both seem to be leaning towards a very earthly solution.


L: 5. What about that 5% Hessdalen unsolved case? Is in that percentage just “solid objects” or also plasma with sharp geometric shapes? Do you think that it is another phenomenon? How can plasma have sharp geometric shape?

Massimo Teodorani: This is still an unsolved problem. At present we can only take note of it but we have not yet a rigorous physical theory able to explain it. And of course we do not know how these very particular shapes can match the much more standard spherical one within the same physical mechanism. What we know is that some of these geometric shapes have been surrounded sometimes by smaller spheres in the same clustering mode reported before. We suspect that this is a part of the same phenomenon, but we cannot explain it yet and so far, not even using work hypotheses. I like to think, anyway, that as snow is composed of very geometric snowflakes, maybe also plasmas in particular conditions can form a similar geometric structure: after all, like physicist David Bohm noticed once, plasmas are extremely “cooperative” structures, meaning that electrons and ions do not behave independently but rather collectively within an intrinsic order dictated by electrical forces inside. This happens without any need to think that snowflakes or plasmas are intelligent or that they represent “portals from somewhere”. These are also possibilities, of course, but they are still too exotic to be considered seriously as true scientific work hypotheses. Anyway, the still very exotic question of “intelligence within a plasma formation”, as a possible consequence of “plasma life forms”, has been recently examined by me, within the framework of researches that have been published by other researchers, which show that in particular conditions plasmas may behave like a life form. I will discuss this delicate issue at the end of this interview.


11. How far did SETV project go in Hessdalen? Is there any new momentum in that direction (possible exogenous probes)?

“Possible exogenous probes”: No, such are speculations, which may be based on some sightings. It is ok to have speculations, but you must never forget it is speculations, which may be wrong. I don’t claim it is wrong, but we don’t have any proves on the existence of such probes.

If the speculations are put forward as facts, the real scientific data can be drowned in the speculations, and people may put everything in the “only speculation” box. That may destroy the facts and the whole field.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.





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