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Birds are Dinosaurs thread


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#16    Dezmond

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 01:23 PM

I really don't know if this is true. Can be true because of the similarities.

Look for example to Birds legs (or how you call them).

And they have a leather like skin just like dinosaurs had.

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#17    Naram-sin

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 06:48 PM

QUOTE
evolution makes no sense, cause what started the first spark of life?


Evolution is not about how everything started, rather it is about how things change and adapt to their environment.  Other disciplines address how things started and religion also attempts (often not too coherently) to answer the origin question.


#18    kikuchiyo

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 06:29 AM

Noob, you got it all wrong, there's a difference between the theory of "chance happening" and evolution, according to what you said about the car and the tornado. You actually compare living organism to hunks of metal?  
  
Cells will seek to survive and reproduce, therefore they need to be change with time to be able to procreate faster and survive "better". It also involve the "survival of the fittest" theory, which is well beyond your "tornado Vs. Car"  analogy.  
  
In the term of evolution life sparked out of a simple chemical reaction, that can be reproduce in laboratory. It a complex mechanism, but here is a simplification: When the atmosphere on earth calmed down the mix of the acidity in the sea, the atmospheric pressure, minerals and a occasional surge from thunders made the perfect environment for the firsts one cell organism (close to some modern undersea plants). With time they started producing a toxic gas (we now call oxygen), this gas could wipe out the firsts life on earth but they evolved and joined an other "newer" form of biological organism ( electrolytes, they actually need oxygen to "live" so there new "symbiot" life would permit the single cell to survive). Today we can still see that symbiot bond as we need oxygen to live yet technically oxygen is a perfect disinfectant.  
  
***  
If Humans were created by god, who created god?  
If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?  
If Humans are created from two sets of genetic backround why is there so many genetic diversity?  
So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.  
  
+++  
  
Through evolution and adaptation some dinosaur evolved in some way. The only dinosaur that have evolved into birds where the Velociraptor "familly", specialized in speed and agility, they got thinner and lighter. With time the best predator had better things to eat and have the privilege to reproduce ( what might have started as a form of osteoporosis, became a common thing making them even more lighter). As the evolution of the wings, at first they were used for cornering and slowing down, the feather would make the air flow in one direction helping them turn and come to a stop without breaking anything ( as we see today with racing cars).

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#19    Dezmond

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 09:44 AM

Here is a very clear picutre to help you see why we think dinosaurs evolved to birds.
Look especially at the wings, it shows very clear how they evolved.

user posted image

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#20    mr_halo

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE(Dezmond @ Nov 17 2004, 09:44 AM)
Here is a very clear picutre to help you see why we think dinosaurs evolved to birds.
Look especially at the wings, it shows very clear how they evolved.

user posted image

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a great picture/diagram dezmond  thumbsup.gif

cool.gif



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#21    Noob Siabot

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 11:56 PM

You make a very good and interesting aguement, kikuchiyo. Well, to answer your questions:
1.If Humans were created by god, who created god?
2.If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?
3.If Humans are created from two sets of genetic backround why is there so many genetic diversity?
4.So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.

1. God is timeless. He's always existed. He has no beginningand no end. This concept is obviously hard to deal with because we are so bound by time and our physical universe.

2.In a sense yes. They've traced the lineage of human (through the emniotic fluid and the placenta) all back to 1 original mother. Plus, when the first humans where on earth, they where all in 1 area, and so there where no dominant or reccesive triats yet. those would develope later.

3.The reason for this diversity is due to the different regions from where people live. In a sense, it's due to horizontal evolution. I mean, the people that first moved to and inhabited asia over a few generations developed an extra layer of fat around their eyes due to the cold environment. People in Africa have darker skin because they live in a hot and very sunny environment.

4.I don't think so. No one (religious or non-religious) would know the answer to this one. My guess would be that the flood (if you believe in it) was responsible or that if there are any left, they would live in the deepest jungles of Africa. I mean, God's not stupid. Could you imagine a T-Rex in modern times? Either we would have killed them all off as trophies or we would all be eaten by dinos.

As far as life being created in the lab, I have yet to see or even hear of any laboratory that has taken a mix of non-living chemicals and created a life.

Edited by Noob Siabot, 18 November 2004 - 11:58 PM.

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#22    seeking

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 01:08 AM

back in ancient times people invented "gods" to explain away what they did not understand, to them the sun rising everyday had to be due to something more powerful becasue in those times they did not have the knowledge needed to understand the idea of space and a solar system, today we still do not understand things such as life and death and therefore, history repeating itsself, we have created a god to explain away what we do not understand because we do not have the knowledge to explain it in any other way, we do however, or some of us anyway, try to further our knowledge and understanding by comming up with ideas to try to explain what we dont know (evolution, big bang), no one just through some wheels on a chair and called it a car, there were ideas that where created first trying to solve the problem at hand

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#23    kikuchiyo

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 04:22 AM

By numbers

Noob, you have raised more questions in my mind. In a religious point of view your answers were satisfying, yet I continuously seek more information so here goes.

1-As the first response to my questions, you talk about the timelessness of god, If god is timeless why would there be an end to our successful specie? Also, would that mean that to god, humans are a common creation, something god can create in six days, with some ease?

2-If all humans are from the same "Genesis" couple, wouldn't the gene pool degenerate after the second generation, creating a high number of trisomy and other genetic birth defects? (Which would be the opposite of the Darwinian point of view where each new generation is better then the last, due to the diversity of genes and the reproduction of the best elements )

3-I think this is a point we can relate, humanity has evolved to survive in it environment.

4-1. By flood, do you mean Noah's flood?
4-2. Why would all the dinosaurs live in the deepest jungles of Africa, if at first the dinosaurs lived in a continent called Pangea, where all the modern continent where bundled together? Humanity could only appear after the dinosaurs disappeared due to the fact that mammals were hunted, so they didn't evolve any hunter skills (which lead to more complex thinking) during that time.

There is a scientific answer to what happend to the dinosaurs, first a ratter large meteorite hits the earth raising quite a big amount of dust in the air, blocking out the sun. This leads to a series of events, not enough plants for the bigger herbivores, then the carnivores are left with only a few scraps of food so they die off too. Only the smaller dinosaurs could survive, know as the raptor specie today, also the small warm blooded mammals were able to avoid being wiped out.
***
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-the process is called  photosynthesis, getting energy from the transformation of the light and carbon.

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#24    Frosty

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 06:28 AM

Yes, I am doubtful that a dinosaur such as a raptor would evolve into a chicken. Why?

There is no god but fiction.

#25    kikuchiyo

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 06:30 AM

well because doubt is what makes humans stand out, as in doubt one must find something to satisfy the ponderous mind.
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Edited by kikuchiyo, 19 November 2004 - 06:34 AM.

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#26    Noob Siabot

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:52 AM

QUOTE(kikuchiyo @ Nov 18 2004, 09:22 PM)
By numbers

Noob, you have raised more questions in my mind. In a religious point of view your answers were satisfying, yet I continuously seek more information so here goes.

1-As the first response to my questions, you talk about the timelessness of god, If god is timeless why would there be an end to our successful specie? Also, would that mean that to god, humans are a common creation, something god can create in six days, with some ease?

2-If all humans are from the same "Genesis" couple, wouldn't the gene pool degenerate after the second generation, creating a high number of trisomy and other genetic birth defects? (Which would be the opposite of the Darwinian point of view where each new generation is better then the last, due to the diversity of genes and the reproduction of the best elements )

3-I think this is a point we can relate, humanity has evolved to survive in it environment.

4-1. By flood, do you mean Noah's flood?
4-2. Why would all the dinosaurs live in the deepest jungles of Africa, if at first the dinosaurs lived in a continent called Pangea, where all the modern continent where bundled together? Humanity could only appear after the dinosaurs disappeared due to the fact that mammals were hunted, so they didn't evolve any hunter skills (which lead to more complex thinking) during that time.

There is a scientific answer to what happend to the dinosaurs, first a ratter large meteorite hits the earth raising quite a big amount of dust in the air, blocking out the sun. This leads to a series of events, not enough plants for the bigger herbivores, then the carnivores are left with only a few scraps of food so they die off too. Only the smaller dinosaurs could survive, know as the raptor specie today, also the small warm blooded mammals were able to avoid being wiped out.
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-"Non-living" chemical are called simply called chemical, if a "chemical" is considered living it's called Biological.

-the process is called  photosynthesis, getting energy from the transformation of the light and carbon.

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1. Look at what we have done to the earth. The only thing humans have been "successful" at is destroying our planet and each other. If I was God, and saw my creations doing this, I'd wipe out humanity in heart beat. As far as being a common creation, that is not so. He set humans apart, hence why man was created last. Man was created to look over the rest of nature, and man is God's favorite creation, I mean man was created in his image. But since you don't believe in God, and since I can't force you to change your opinion, I don't expect you to. All I can do is present my beliefs.

2. Let me answer that question with a question: If evolution is true, the how did any species survive? I mean two individuals had to have had the same mutations in order to have offspring, and since there where only 2 parents, their gene pool would have degenrated as well. It's a good question, and I don't have all the answers, but then again, I never said I did and neither does science.

3. Glad to see we agree! thumbsup.gif

4-1. Yes
4-2. As far as living in Africa, that's just my personal guess, I don't really know. With the metor killing off the dinos, I don't beleive it. I read a few articles and saw a few speciials on the Discovery Channel which prove this theory false. I can't remember them right off the top of my head, but I beleive one of the arguements was as to the specificity of the exstinction. Something about how certain species that supposedly lived through it didn't quite add up. I'll look into it more.

photosynthesis is not the process of taking "chemicals" and making them into "biological", living things. All that is happening is that light is being transformed into carbon, like you said, but let's not for get that this is happening inside of a "living" plant. I'd like to see scientists take a petri dish filled with random chemicals and then try and create life in it.

Edited by Noob Siabot, 19 November 2004 - 08:54 AM.

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#27    kikuchiyo

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 04:28 PM

Two is as bad as one, it's the lonesliest number since number 1

According to the philosophy of evolution, not a couple but a group of individual as to gain the same mutation in order to make an successful evolution.  

Success

Humanity is the only creation of god able to create complex objects and tool, humanity is inlighten as a whole, humanity is gifted with the most powerful gift in gods arsenal. You would go forward and destroy the work of your creation, the only animal able to ponder on abstract questions.

As god is able to see individual things, as it is omnipotent, would it see couples falling in love, singular sparks of genius, unique uprise. Humanity will not die to the hands of god, it will evolve and die off.

It was a chill month of may

It wasn't quit the impact that killed the dinosaurs it was the ice age, that followed the clouds of dust. It created a form of umbrella blocking out the sun and so killing the plants, other smaller things could survive since they don't need much food to survive.

Let there be light

photosynthesis has been a successful experiment, it's transforming carbon and light together to produce energy, and that was the first step to the creation of a selfsufficent mono-cellular entity.

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I have my believes and you have yours, as you said, but here's a final question; why aren't the first creation of god in the bible?

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#28    Noob Siabot

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 09:01 PM

Well, to answer that, you have to look at it this way:
According to the Bible, God created all life. So every form of life was created, and would be free to evolve from there. So the first creations where all fully grown an mature, hence no need for a single-cell organism to evolve into a more complex cell. But this is my opinion. You raise very good and interesting questions, it's nice to see that people actually think in this world instead of just spouting off stuff they don't really know anything about.

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#29    kikuchiyo

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 06:36 AM

It is a complex game of cards  
  
Maybe it is that we all have a odd and twisted version of god, as creator of life. In that sense i guess there is a "god", a "cosmic" trigger. Some form of series of fortunate events, like serindity only on a incredibly large and complex "model".  
  
In my vision of events humanity is the ultimate form of coincidence, specs of dust in a sea of possibility. In the religious vision Humans are here for an obscure goal, for a mighty creator being. In the end, it's all about possibilities and fractal frequencies.

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#30    Insight

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 07:36 AM

If Humans were created by god, who created god?

God needs no creation. He always was. A concept foreign to humans because on our earth, everything must have a beginning, and an end.

Explanation:

Is it unreasonable to say that a being with the ability to create something out of nothing would also have the ability to "never have not been"?

Time is measured by the movement of matter through space. This can be observed in the fact that if every single bit of matter and energy in the universe stopped moving, time, in essence, would be frozen.

Is it unreasonable to say that before matter and space were created, time was a concept that did not exist, because it didn't need to, because the laws applied to this God did not require his existence to end, nor begin.

In contrast, the laws of time applied to we ourselves are thermodynamics, which state energy is running out, ordered matter tends towards a state of indefinite disorder, and that the end of all things will come when the universes energy reaches a zero point. Men were not made to exist infinitely, nor was energy made to exist infinitely, nor was the organized state of matter made to stay organized, therefore, we have been designated laws which govern "time", as well call it.

If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?

Yes.

But inbreeding used to be a positive thing back when the "Yin" of humanity's genepool was a "Yang".

They came from a genepool that was uncorrupted by fallacy. They began with perfect bodies. Over humankinds life span, we have spread over the earth, adapted, developed true and false thinkings and actions. Genetics have decayed, just as any living thing does. In early days, it was a better practice to marry within your family, to preserve your genes. That is not so with today, and the state of decay we exist in now.

If Humans are created from two sets of genetic background why is there so many genetic diversity?

Actually, all humans share 99.99% of the same exact Genetic code. There are only a few handfuls of genes that account for height, metabolism, organ size, pigmentation, and proportions. It's the combinations of these few genes that make the diversity of the human race.

Try to think how many numbers can be made with a 10 digit number. 1,000,000,000.

One billion.

If our genetic code consists of 3 billion bits of data, imagine how much information we have inside us. The number of data bits we have would be the number 1,
followed by three billion zeros. A number so large I wouldn't fit on this website.

It was also discovered, with our recent advances in genetics, that the entire human genetic lineage can be, and has been, traced back to one original woman. I saw this on the news a few years ago.


So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.


Actually, the dinosaurs could no longer survive due to the atmospheric conditions after the flood. Imagine if today the whole world was covered in water for a few years. Our change in climate would be dramatic.

It's theorized that before the flood, the atmospheric pressure was so great, it actually forced oxygen directly into the blood stream of all living things, which would allow for the existence of dinosaurs which are hundreds of times bigger than a human. After the flood, they couldn't "breath". Humans also became much smaller, and started living shorter life spans.

The technology for this still exists today. There was a young girl who fell down a well in recent years. When she was brought back up many days later, her feet were black and broken with decay. They put her in a pressurized chamber filled with pure oxygen, and her feet completely regenerated themselves, with the exception of her little toes.

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