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In the blink of an Eye...

rapture end times apocalyptic literature revelation the bible

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#1    Jor-el

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

The Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the "being caught up" discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord in the air".

The term "Rapture" is used in at least two senses. In the pre-tribulation view, a group of people will be left behind on earth after another group literally leaves "to meet the Lord in the air." This is now the most common use of the term, especially among fundamentalist Christians and in the United States. The other, older use of the term "Rapture" is simply as a synonym for the final resurrection generally, without a belief that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This distinction is important as some types of Christianity never refer to "the Rapture" in religious education, but might use the older and more general sense of the word "rapture" in referring to what happens during the final resurrection.

There are many views among Christians regarding the timing of Christ's return (including whether it will occur in one event or two), and various views regarding the destination of the aerial gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4. Denominations such as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutheran Christians, and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

So what do you think, is it going to happen, or not?

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#2    freetoroam

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:07 PM

Excuse my ignorance, so does this mean some people think Jesus might be coming back?

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#3    Jor-el

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:19 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 10 June 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, so does this mean some people think Jesus might be coming back?

No, it refers to an event that will happen typically thought to occur 7 years or so before the actual 2nd coming of Christ. It is a reference to the belief that the church or more specifically the Body of Christ will not suffer the 7 years of the Great Tribulation... which is what is implied by the One world government, the anti-Christ and the devastation of Gods wrath on the world.

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#4    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 June 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

The Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the "being caught up" discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord in the air".

The term "Rapture" is used in at least two senses. In the pre-tribulation view, a group of people will be left behind on earth after another group literally leaves "to meet the Lord in the air." This is now the most common use of the term, especially among fundamentalist Christians and in the United States. The other, older use of the term "Rapture" is simply as a synonym for the final resurrection generally, without a belief that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This distinction is important as some types of Christianity never refer to "the Rapture" in religious education, but might use the older and more general sense of the word "rapture" in referring to what happens during the final resurrection.

There are many views among Christians regarding the timing of Christ's return (including whether it will occur in one event or two), and various views regarding the destination of the aerial gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4. Denominations such as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutheran Christians, and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

So what do you think, is it going to happen, or not?
The earth and humanity will continue as it always has. There will be a massive population decline at some point for some reason, it will fluctuate like a coing comeing to rest on a table. but by and large life will continue as it always has. Life and death on planet earth, in the milky way galaxy, in the universe of the relative.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#5    freetoroam

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:24 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

No, it refers to an event that will happen typically thought to occur 7 years or so before the actual 2nd coming of Christ. It is a reference to the belief that the church or more specifically the Body of Christ will not suffer the 7 years of the Great Tribulation... which is what is implied by the One world government, the anti-Christ and the devastation of Gods wrath on the world.

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Well, thats confused me even more. Best I leave this one alone.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#6    Jessem

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 10 June 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, so does this mean some people think Jesus might be coming back?

In my belief, yes. He will return, and He will fight satan, well put him back in place to no longer roam the earth. The rapture, I'm still not sure about personally, even as a Christian. The bible does say:

Revelation 14:14-16

14) I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15) Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16) So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

So from this verse it tells us He will reap the harvest, but the original "epiphany" of the rapture itself came from a man who started the seven day adventists. So for me I haven't studied enough to know for sure. Jesus

yes will come back, will it happen like we think in the form of a rapture? IDK...

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#7    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:29 PM

Perhaps disappointingly, (since i see Revelation as one of the first examples of fantasy literature, early sci-fi perhaps, and John of Patmos was certainly someone who knew where his towel was), I think it was almost certainly always intended as being metaphorical, and referring to what Jesus referred to as the 'Kingdom of Heaven'; meaning those who, basically, got what he was talking about (the select few), and those who didn't. Those who didn't would probably see all the stuff about beasts with six heads and so on as being literally true, and would spend centuries driving themslves batty trying to fit the names of every single leader and public figure from the Emperor Nero to Barack Obama fit the number '666' somehow. Those who did get what he was saying would realise that it was basically a very colourful way of saying 'some will get what Jesus was talking about, but most won't', and was probably chosen by an editor with a flair for the dramatic as a good way of bookending that splendid opening line "In the begininng God created the heavens and the earth." They started with the Beginning, so they had to finish with the, metaphorical, End.

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#8    Jor-el

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:07 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 June 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

The earth and humanity will continue as it always has. There will be a massive population decline at some point for some reason, it will fluctuate like a coing comeing to rest on a table. but by and large life will continue as it always has. Life and death on planet earth, in the milky way galaxy, in the universe of the relative.

Which is the normal course of events barring sudden extinction of our species by a number of accidents or external intelligences. That is not the point. Within the framework of the bible, the time of humanity apart from its creator will end, and humanity will continue, but under its original mission which is to be the representatives of God to the Physical universe.

God will live with mankind forever. this universe will eventually come to an end and a new one will be created, and we will still be there with him.

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#9    freetoroam

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostJessem, on 10 June 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

In my belief, yes. He will return, and He will fight satan, well put him back in place to no longer roam the earth. The rapture, I'm still not sure about personally, even as a Christian. The bible does say:

Revelation 14:14-16

14) I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15) Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16) So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

So from this verse it tells us He will reap the harvest, but the original "epiphany" of the rapture itself came from a man who started the seven day adventists. So for me I haven't studied enough to know for sure. Jesus

yes will come back, will it happen like we think in the form of a rapture? IDK...
Since the times of those writings much has changed in the world. How would he come back and be recognized?  Many a man has stood with boards round their necks proclaiming they are the new Christ and how where they accepted?
Which woman will be chosen to be the mother of this man?
What will he be while growing up that will make him stand out from the other children around him?
Will his claiming of the new christ  occur when he reaches adulthood and how will that stand up in society today?
Will we witness actual miracles or like so many others will be debunked before they hit a second day in the tabloids?
How will he be any different from any other man and actually stand out?
And please do not say " we will know when the time comes"

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#10    Jor-el

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostJessem, on 10 June 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

In my belief, yes. He will return, and He will fight satan, well put him back in place to no longer roam the earth. The rapture, I'm still not sure about personally, even as a Christian. The bible does say:

Revelation 14:14-16

14) I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15) Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16) So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

So from this verse it tells us He will reap the harvest, but the original "epiphany" of the rapture itself came from a man who started the seven day adventists. So for me I haven't studied enough to know for sure. Jesus

yes will come back, will it happen like we think in the form of a rapture? IDK...

Actually it is much older than that, much older...

Here are some excerpts form the early church fathers, before Augustine became the accepted cannon on this matter until the reformation.

"Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raptus; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away".

"Harpazo" \har-pad'-zo\ Koine Greek: "forcibly snatched away", "taken for oneself".

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."


The Shepherd of Hermas (110 A.D.)

Shepherd of Hermas, written in A.D. 88 to 97 and published in A.D. 110

The writer, after escaping a huge terrifying beast with four colors on its head (white, red, black and gold), met a virgin in his vision. "like a bride going froth from a bride-chamber, all in white...I recognized from the former visions that it was the church." the virgin explained that she escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing."



Victorinus (240 A.D.)

Commentary on the Apocalypse 6.14 - "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 - "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst."


Cyprian (250 A.D.)

Epistle 55 - The Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands." It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands."

Cyprian Speaking of the immanency of the Rapture, he wrote, "Who would not crave to be changed and transformed into the likeness of Christ and to arrive more quickly to the dignity of heavenly glory." After telling his readers that the coming resurrection was the hope of the Christian, he points out that the rapture should motivate us as we see the last days approaching. Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible." Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom"

Treatises of Cyprian - 21 to 26



Ephraim the Syrian (376 A.D.)

In the 4th Century, Ephraim the Syrian wrote a small work titled, Antichrist and the End of the World. This and other works were published in A.D. 376. His works remained relatively obscure in their own languages (he was fluent in several languages) through the centuries. Only recently were they translated into English.

We ought to understand thoroughly, there my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already, there have been hungers and plagues, violent movements of nations and sins, which have been predicted by the Lord. Prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord so that He may draw us from confusion which overwhelms the world. Believe me, dearest brothers, the coming of the Lord is nigh. Believe me because the end of the world is at hand.

Because all saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come, and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at anytime the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour and the end of this world comes to the harvest and [to the] angels’ hands awaiting the empire of the kingdom of our Lord.

When, therefore, the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one who is born from the tribe of Dan [comes] . . . conceived from the seed of man and from a most vile [woman] mixed with an evil or worthless spirit.

Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the Temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, shall sit as God in order that he may be adored by all nations.

Then all people from everywhere shall flock together by him, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for 42 months. [This is] just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years—1,260 days.

Then, when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of Antichrist through whom [Satan] will have seduced the whole world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man. And coming forward, the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty with the sign of the word of salvation going before Him.


Origen was the first to become discouraged with prophecy, turn from a literal interpretation of the Bible and espouse an allegorical method of interpretation. Only with the Reformation some 400 years ago did theologians begin to return to a literal interpretation and, eventually, the pre-tribulation rapture view was revived.

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#11    Jor-el

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 10 June 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Perhaps disappointingly, (since i see Revelation as one of the first examples of fantasy literature, early sci-fi perhaps, and John of Patmos was certainly someone who knew where his towel was), I think it was almost certainly always intended as being metaphorical, and referring to what Jesus referred to as the 'Kingdom of Heaven'; meaning those who, basically, got what he was talking about (the select few), and those who didn't. Those who didn't would probably see all the stuff about beasts with six heads and so on as being literally true, and would spend centuries driving themslves batty trying to fit the names of every single leader and public figure from the Emperor Nero to Barack Obama fit the number '666' somehow. Those who did get what he was saying would realise that it was basically a very colourful way of saying 'some will get what Jesus was talking about, but most won't', and was probably chosen by an editor with a flair for the dramatic as a good way of bookending that splendid opening line "In the begininng God created the heavens and the earth." They started with the Beginning, so they had to finish with the, metaphorical, End.

Over the centuries the church left a literal interpretation and favoured a metaphorical or allegorical view of scripture, the literalist view however was taken up again with the reformation and it is that view that is now under analysis. I am a literalist although I do recognize a lot of metaphor being used in revelation, but those metaphors are specifically identified elsewhere in scripture. As such I think Revelation was written in code, but the key is freely available to anyone who has the bible at hand.

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#12    Jessem

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 10 June 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Since the times of those writings much has changed in the world. How would he come back and be recognized?  Many a man has stood with boards round their necks proclaiming they are the new Christ and how where they accepted?
Which woman will be chosen to be the mother of this man?
What will he be while growing up that will make him stand out from the other children around him?
Will his claiming of the new christ  occur when he reaches adulthood and how will that stand up in society today?
Will we witness actual miracles or like so many others will be debunked before they hit a second day in the tabloids?
How will he be any different from any other man and actually stand out?
And please do not say " we will know when the time comes"

No, the Word says;

Acts 1:11- "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

The secret of life is'nt trying to figure out the secret, its about living it.

#13    freetoroam

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostJessem, on 10 June 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

No, the Word says;

Acts 1:11- "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
what? he will come back on a cross? thats going to cause a few stirs!
But what about his mother, who will she be?

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#14    Jessem

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:42 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 10 June 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

what? he will come back on a cross? thats going to cause a few stirs!
But what about his mother, who will she be?

Have you even read the bible? Even if you don't believe it, you should read it before you debate lol. He ascended to heaven after he rose from the dead, and he was on earth for 40 days before he did. He will descend from heaven...

Edited by Jessem, 10 June 2013 - 09:43 PM.

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#15    freetoroam

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostJessem, on 10 June 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Have you even read the bible? Even if you don't believe it, you should read it before you debate lol. He ascended to heaven after he rose from the dead, and he was on earth for 40 days before he did. He will descend from heaven...
Sorry, you are right.
So he will come out of a cave?
So basically, there will be no mother, no growing up, no miracles or followers , he will just suddenly appear?
How is he going to achieve this in our society today?

Will we actually know when it happens or find out in about 300 odd years later when someone writes about it?

Edited by freetoroam, 10 June 2013 - 09:46 PM.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.




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