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Will We Go Over the Cliff?


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Poll: Over the Cliff? (31 member(s) have cast votes)

Will Obama and the Repubs allow the tax hikes and budget cuts to kick in on Jan 1?

  1. Yes (13 votes [41.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.94%

  2. No (9 votes [29.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.03%

  3. Don't Care (9 votes [29.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.03%

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#31    Harte

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

The only way America will still be around  is if we do go over the cliff.

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#32    Rafterman

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

Of course we are - the Fiscal Cliff is the Democrat wet dream.

Massive cuts to defense

Tax increases for every single American

What more could they want?

Throw in the Obama/Geitner "**** the debt ceiling" proposal and Democrats will have a never-ending Sting-like tantric spendinggasm.

Edited by Rafterman, 06 December 2012 - 04:15 PM.

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#33    RavenHawk

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:34 PM

View PostHarte, on 06 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

The only way America will still be around  is if we do go over the cliff.
I canít reiterate this any clearer.  There is no cliff.  This is all a ploy by the Socialist in Chief to 1) vilify the Conservatives (they get blamed either way if we go over or not on this artificial cliff), 2) to wrestled the power of the purse from the House, in order to raise the debt limit (to start), 3) repeal of the 22nd Amendment, and 4) pull the wool over our eyes (or at least to about half).  Wake up sheeple!  On second thought, just go back to sleep, you deserve it.  This is the real issue.  Itís all the first steps of dictatorship.

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#34    Corp

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

View PostRafterman, on 06 December 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Of course we are - the Fiscal Cliff is the Democrat wet dream.

Massive cuts to defense

Tax increases for every single American

What more could they want?

Throw in the Obama/Geitner "**** the debt ceiling" proposal and Democrats will have a never-ending Sting-like tantric spendinggasm.

Defense does need to be cut and it's clearly the easiest place to save money. And yet with a ballooning debt the Republicans want to increase defense spending? Crazy. And I believe the latest Dem offer only has tax increases for only the high earners.

Though I'm sure the Dems wouldn't mind that much if no deal was reached since given how the GOP has been acting they're getting most of the blame for this problem. Mid-term elections come along, Dems point out that the GOP were being a bunch of morons over this cliff thing, and then they get control of Congress back and can actually do stuff.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#35    F3SS

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

View PostCorp, on 06 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:



Defense does need to be cut and it's clearly the easiest place to save money. And yet with a ballooning debt the Republicans want to increase defense spending? Crazy. And I believe the latest Dem offer only has tax increases for only the high earners.

Though I'm sure the Dems wouldn't mind that much if no deal was reached since given how the GOP has been acting they're getting most of the blame for this problem. Mid-term elections come along, Dems point out that the GOP were being a bunch of morons over this cliff thing, and then they get control of Congress back and can actually do stuff.
Wow great so as long as they can pass blame around who cares about what happens with us so long as they see a potential vote. It's sickening if they really care then they'll do something about it besides seeing the bright side of it for their own selfish gains. Stop defending these pathetic weasels.

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#36    RavenHawk

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostCorp, on 06 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Defense does need to be cut and it's clearly the easiest place to save money. And yet with a ballooning debt the Republicans want to increase defense spending? Crazy. And I believe the latest Dem offer only has tax increases for only the high earners.
Clearly the easiest?  Do you understand what defense allows you to do?  I agree that we need drastic cuts across the board.  So let me ask you this, you donít think that cuts from Entitlements would be any easier?  And the cuts from defense will just be used on Entitlements?  You do understand that the Constitution charges this government with Providing for the Common Defense.  Nowhere does it charge the government with providing Entitlements.  But I realize that that is beyond your understanding.

Quote

Though I'm sure the Dems wouldn't mind that much if no deal was reached since given how the GOP has been acting they're getting most of the blame for this problem. Mid-term elections come along, Dems point out that the GOP were being a bunch of morons over this cliff thing, and then they get control of Congress back and can actually do stuff.
I love it.  The group that is concerned over rampant spending and being fiscally responsible and they get blamed for doing the right thing.  Common Sense has definitely left the building.

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#37    Pyridium

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

Obama said, "the best REVENGE is to vote".  The revenge was for the Repubs taking control of the house in 2010 with the help of the Tea Party.  The Repubs must destroy the Tea Party and increase tax rates for the rich in an effort to curb the pending automatic spending cuts.  Bingo, Obama wins again, bye bye to the 2 party system.  If the Repubs do not cave in, Bingo, Obama wins again.  Raising the debt limit will be just a stroke of his executive order pen.

In a much bigger picture, i truly believe that Obama is using the legal system to circumvent the constitution.  What would you expect from a community organizer that studied constitutional law.  He did not admire the constitution, he learned how to destroy it in order to form a more perfect union.


#38    F3SS

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

View PostPyridium, on 06 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

a more perfect union.
That would largely be in the eye of the beholder and that beholder is definitely not someone who has a true appreciation of American Exceptionalism.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 06 December 2012 - 10:54 PM.

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#39    Corp

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 06 December 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Wow great so as long as they can pass blame around who cares about what happens with us so long as they see a potential vote. It's sickening if they really care then they'll do something about it besides seeing the bright side of it for their own selfish gains. Stop defending these pathetic weasels.

Both sides have been acting stupid but it's the Republicans who are by far the pathetic weasels. They need to start caring about the country more than their own ideology.

View PostRavenHawk, on 06 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Clearly the easiest?  Do you understand what defense allows you to do?  I agree that we need drastic cuts across the board.  So let me ask you this, you don't think that cuts from Entitlements would be any easier?  And the cuts from defense will just be used on Entitlements?  You do understand that the Constitution charges this government with Providing for the Common Defense.  Nowhere does it charge the government with providing Entitlements.  But I realize that that is beyond your understanding.

The US spends more on its military than the next ten nations combined. I'll pause to let that sink in. If the only way the US can provide common defense is with eleven carrier groups they must have a horrible soldiers. The US has a blotted defense budget. This is fact. Out of control military spending due to two wars helped in a huge way to create this problem. Cutting the budget of the military will help to save money and won't in any way threaten the safety of the country. Raising military spending, which the GOP wants to do because...damned if I know, only serves to make the problem worst. This should be crystal clear to anyone.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#40    F3SS

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

View PostCorp, on 07 December 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Both sides have been acting stupid but it's the Republicans who are by far the pathetic weasels. They need to start caring about the country more than their own ideology.


Hey man, that seriously goes both ways. FYI, you just made my list of favorite UMers... http://www.unexplain...howtopic=238843

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#41    DieChecker

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostPyridium, on 06 December 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

We will go over the cliff and the Repubs will lose the house in 2014.  If America is still around...

View PostCorp, on 06 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Though I'm sure the Dems wouldn't mind that much if no deal was reached since given how the GOP has been acting they're getting most of the blame for this problem. Mid-term elections come along, Dems point out that the GOP were being a bunch of morons over this cliff thing, and then they get control of Congress back and can actually do stuff.

I think the Dems taking the House in 2014 really depends, not on who blinks for this Cliff, but if the supposed Recession hits or not. I can't see a Sweeping Dem win in '14 if we've had a poor economy 6 years in a row.

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#42    Harte

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:52 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 07 December 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

I think the Dems taking the House in 2014 really depends, not on who blinks for this Cliff, but if the supposed Recession hits or not. I can't see a Sweeping Dem win in '14 if we've had a poor economy 6 years in a row.

That's the generally agreed-upon belief that Obama just blew up in November.

Who can say, now?

Harte

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#43    Yamato

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:00 AM

View Postand then, on 03 December 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

Considering the damage we are being told that will result from this failure to compromise by the two parties, do you think a deal will be struck or do you think both sides are willing to actually, knowingly allow a double dip recession?
Looks like I'm in a small minority who voted No.

We'll never go over the cliff, so long as punting the problem down the road and mortgaging our future continues to be an option.   And I haven't seen any convincing reason to believe that option is no longer available in December 2012.

Edit:  This is the bureaucratic "fiscal cliff", not the real fiscal cliff.   It's an arbitrary date of irresponsibility set by our masters who want to keep us in their debt.   The real fiscal cliff isn't going to be a good thing like this one is.  Or at least good like Obama promised it would be, before he got reelected of course, and once again retreated from his promises to keep a high ratio of spending cuts to tax hikes.

Edited by Yamato, 08 December 2012 - 02:04 AM.

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#44    RavenHawk

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:16 AM

View PostCorp, on 07 December 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Both sides have been acting stupid but it's the Republicans who are by far the pathetic weasels. They need to start caring about the country more than their own ideology.
So being fiscally responsible is being pathetic weasels?  ďTell a lie long enoughÖĒ Gambit begins to get old I think.  Some of us still see through that and the thing is that youíre the one that has to keep the lie up.  Eventually, the people will get wise.  Actually, it is the deviousness of the Socialist in Chief.  He has it all plotted out.  In addition to the four things that I said is being achieved by this artificial fiscal cliff, is that in blaming the GOP, it will hide all the new taxes from Obamacare.  If the Bush tax cuts expire, people will lose that additional $300.  But even if the Bush cuts donít expire, individual families will see from $2000 to $4000 in increases.  And that is about what the Socialists are threatening will happen.  So please, donít be calling the GOP as pathetic weasels because youíve already bought into the Socialist infringement into your life, hook, line, and sinker.

Quote

The US spends more on its military than the next ten nations combined. I'll pause to let that sink in.
I believe that the number is closer to 20 to 25.  It is perhaps the best investment this government can and has made.  Itís called American Hegemony and has been responsible for some 70 years of relative peace.  It is the same thing that allows you to feel safe in your bed at night.  Iíll pause to let that sink in.

Quote

If the only way the US can provide common defense is with eleven carrier groups they must have a horrible soldiers.
What a stupid, ignorant statement!  We are known as a two ocean navy.  That requires aspiring to that mythical 600 ship fleet.  That would only make our own ground forces that much more superior.  Besides, I donít think that no matter how hard you try, youíll never get a carrier inside a bunker a 100 miles inland and 80 feet below ground.

Quote

The US has a blotted defense budget. This is fact. Out of control military spending due to two wars helped in a huge way to create this problem.
Bloated?? Defense is about 19% of the budget.  Entitlements are about 43% and with Obamacare, who knows how much that will bloat things??  With Obama in office, I doubt weíll ever see another budget.  Weíll just keep throwing money out the window as if it grew on trees.  The incurred debt from Iraq and Afghanistan under Bush really has no meaning any more.  We went from $6 trillion to $10 trillion of debt in 8 years of Bush.  Under Obama, it spiked $6 trillion in only 3 years and looks to add $1+ trillion to the debt every year hereafter.  So please, donít bring up bloat.  Spending on two wars only added a little more debt.  The key here is that under Bush, the GDP was going up too.  More revenue was coming in.  That is not the preferred situation but it did keep Bush from having to really deal with bloated government.  What helped in a huge way to create this problem was the failure in two sectors Ė Housing and Banking, with the Auto industry thrown in.  So the question becomes, who controlled those sectors in Congress?  And If I need to reiterate that it is the House that controls this nationís purse.  The 110th Congress was Socialist controlled.

Quote

Cutting the budget of the military will help to save money and won't in any way threaten the safety of the country. Raising military spending, which the GOP wants to do because...damned if I know, only serves to make the problem worst. This should be crystal clear to anyone.
Now, I agree that we need to cut from defense, but what is needed more importantly is a cut across the board.  This government should have never got into the business of Entitlements.  It threatens the safety and health of this nation.  Cutting only from Defense alone isnít going to do anything but make us weak.  We need to look to see if we can get away with trimming the budget so that we are only spending more than the next 20?  15?  10?  nations do on defense.  Can we do with 3 fewer carriers?  Perhaps we can.  The most pertinent question is, what will fill into the void left by our retreating?  For every great nation, there is an equally great enemy.  As we retreat, our enemy will fill that void.  This is just common sense.  So now, we have to consider how much blood and treasure we are willing to sacrifice down the road to pay for letting this enemy gain ground?  Now who is that enemy?  It will be one that our retreat will enable.  Is the barbarian at the gate, Islam?  A new resurgence in Russia and Communism?  Perhaps itís Europe in the shadow of collapse of the Euro?  There is just too much uncertainty.  We need to consider all of these things because they do affect the safety of our country.  I donít know if the GOP wants to really raise the defense budget at this time.  I think thatís just more Socialist propaganda of which you are taken with.

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#45    joc

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:50 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 08 December 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

So being fiscally responsible is being pathetic weasels?  "Tell a lie long enough…" Gambit begins to get old I think.  Some of us still see through that and the thing is that you're the one that has to keep the lie up.  Eventually, the people will get wise.  Actually, it is the deviousness of the Socialist in Chief.  He has it all plotted out.  In addition to the four things that I said is being achieved by this artificial fiscal cliff, is that in blaming the GOP, it will hide all the new taxes from Obamacare.  If the Bush tax cuts expire, people will lose that additional $300.  But even if the Bush cuts don't expire, individual families will see from $2000 to $4000 in increases.  And that is about what the Socialists are threatening will happen.  So please, don't be calling the GOP as pathetic weasels because you've already bought into the Socialist infringement into your life, hook, line, and sinker.


I believe that the number is closer to 20 to 25.  It is perhaps the best investment this government can and has made.  It's called American Hegemony and has been responsible for some 70 years of relative peace.  It is the same thing that allows you to feel safe in your bed at night.  I'll pause to let that sink in.


What a stupid, ignorant statement!  We are known as a two ocean navy.  That requires aspiring to that mythical 600 ship fleet.  That would only make our own ground forces that much more superior.  Besides, I don't think that no matter how hard you try, you'll never get a carrier inside a bunker a 100 miles inland and 80 feet below ground.


Bloated?? Defense is about 19% of the budget.  Entitlements are about 43% and with Obamacare, who knows how much that will bloat things??  With Obama in office, I doubt we'll ever see another budget.  We'll just keep throwing money out the window as if it grew on trees.  The incurred debt from Iraq and Afghanistan under Bush really has no meaning any more.  We went from $6 trillion to $10 trillion of debt in 8 years of Bush.  Under Obama, it spiked $6 trillion in only 3 years and looks to add $1+ trillion to the debt every year hereafter.  So please, don't bring up bloat.  Spending on two wars only added a little more debt.  The key here is that under Bush, the GDP was going up too.  More revenue was coming in.  That is not the preferred situation but it did keep Bush from having to really deal with bloated government.  What helped in a huge way to create this problem was the failure in two sectors – Housing and Banking, with the Auto industry thrown in.  So the question becomes, who controlled those sectors in Congress?  And If I need to reiterate that it is the House that controls this nation's purse.  The 110th Congress was Socialist controlled.


Now, I agree that we need to cut from defense, but what is needed more importantly is a cut across the board. This government should have never got into the business of Entitlements.  It threatens the safety and health of this nation.  Cutting only from Defense alone isn't going to do anything but make us weak.  We need to look to see if we can get away with trimming the budget so that we are only spending more than the next 20?  15?  10?  nations do on defense.  Can we do with 3 fewer carriers?  Perhaps we can.  The most pertinent question is, what will fill into the void left by our retreating?  For every great nation, there is an equally great enemy.  As we retreat, our enemy will fill that void.  This is just common sense.  So now, we have to consider how much blood and treasure we are willing to sacrifice down the road to pay for letting this enemy gain ground?  Now who is that enemy?  It will be one that our retreat will enable.  Is the barbarian at the gate, Islam?  A new resurgence in Russia and Communism?  Perhaps it's Europe in the shadow of collapse of the Euro?  There is just too much uncertainty.  We need to consider all of these things because they do affect the safety of our country.  I don't know if the GOP wants to really raise the defense budget at this time.  I think that's just more Socialist propaganda of which you are taken with.
Nonetheless...once the Entitlement Genie is out of the bottle...it cannot be put back in.  I'm sick and tired frankly of hearing Republicans this and Democrats that.  George W. Bush was a Republican...he had a Republican House and a Republican Senate.  What did he do?  Spend, spend, spend.  What else did he do?  No Child Left Behind...which in reality left all children behind.  What else did he do?  Stirred up a hornets nest and destabilized the entire world.  Republicans?  How are they different from the Democrats?  They all lie.  They all cheat.  They all say this and that and then do the other.  Well, I don't have my blinders on anymore.  It isn't the Republicans vs the Democrats and it never has been.  It is Freedom vs Tyranny.

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