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Where do athiests think we came from?


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#286    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:09 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Sorry. I misunderstood your whole post i thought we wre talking about you.

If a complete stranger came up to me and told me they had met an alien i would talk to them. I would cross examine them and find out the context, the reliablity of the witness and his/her background.  If i accepted that they were sane, healthy, and honest, then I would accpet any tale they told me as probably true. It has nothing to do with god being in the mix.

This could be the same for a ghost, poltergeist, alien etc. My dad once met something he described as a yowie in the australiana bush. it errified him and the teenage friend he was with at the time. He described it clearly despite over 60 years having passed and the description matched other sightings of a similar creature in the Australian bush. I believe he and his friend saw something inexplicable and described it accurately.
It is realtively easy using questions, and reality checkers, to ascertain from a physical description and conversation whether something observed was more likely  real, or an hallucination etc.

There is no scientific evidence to show God isnt real.

People see what they want to see despite atheism not being safe.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 06 December 2012 - 12:10 PM.


#287    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:12 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 06 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Because I'm not that good at lying to myself.

The effects of the belief are real, not a lie.

If there was a yellow pill which, if taken, made you happy  content, in love with yourself and the world, and all the other positive aspects of humanity; took away physiacl and emotional pain and replaced them with positive emotions, would you take it?

Perhaps you would not. You may be a person who somehow believes it is our fate to suffer pain and hurt, or even that we deserve to.

But let us suppose you say. "Yes that would be a good thing."
Now, if i proved to you tha the pill was only sugar and yet it did ALL those things, would you be any more or less likely to take it?

Why where is the lie. Taking the pill makes you feel, and be, better.It lets you live a far better life. Even when you know it is only sugar, it still works. What sort of person would  NOT take it, and prefer the "honesty" of pain suffering anger hate fear etc?  What sort of psychological profile would  a person  have to have, to prefer that sort of "honesty"? Why is pain suffering grief etc seen as more honest than love calmness and a lack of pain or suffering? What does that say about ones beliefs about the nature and "fate" of humanity?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#288    Rlyeh

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

The effects of the belief are real, not a lie.
As real as you believe them to be. Like I just said, I'm not that good at lying to myself.

Quote

If there was a yellow pill which, if taken, made you happy  content, in love with yourself and the world, and all the other positive aspects of humanity; took away physiacl and emotional pain and replaced them with positive emotions, would you take it?
Taking drugs to escape reality. No I wouldn't

Quote

Now, if i proved to you tha the pill was only sugar and yet it did ALL those things, would you be any more or less likely to take it?
More reason not to take it. You're not exactly credible.

Quote

Why where is the lie. Taking the pill makes you feel, and be, better.It lets you live a far better life. Even when you know it is only sugar, it still works. What sort of person would  NOT take it, and prefer the "honesty" of pain suffering anger hate fear etc?  What sort of psychological profile would  a person  have to have, to prefer that sort of "honesty"? Why is pain suffering grief etc seen as more honest than love calmness and a lack of pain or suffering? What does that say about ones beliefs about the nature and "fate" of humanity?
These are delusions.
It must be difficult leaving your world of make believe to reply on these forums.

You seem to think being human is an illness.

Edited by Rlyeh, 06 December 2012 - 12:28 PM.


#289    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

The effects of the belief are real, not a lie.

If there was a yellow pill which, if taken, made you happy  content, in love with yourself and the world, and all the other positive aspects of humanity; took away physiacl and emotional pain and replaced them with positive emotions, would you take it?

Perhaps you would not. You may be a person who somehow believes it is our fate to suffer pain and hurt, or even that we deserve to.

But let us suppose you say. "Yes that would be a good thing."
Now, if i proved to you tha the pill was only sugar and yet it did ALL those things, would you be any more or less likely to take it?

Why where is the lie. Taking the pill makes you feel, and be, better.It lets you live a far better life. Even when you know it is only sugar, it still works. What sort of person would  NOT take it, and prefer the "honesty" of pain suffering anger hate fear etc?  What sort of psychological profile would  a person  have to have, to prefer that sort of "honesty"? Why is pain suffering grief etc seen as more honest than love calmness and a lack of pain or suffering? What does that say about ones beliefs about the nature and "fate" of humanity?

Joy & sadness are all precious experiences & a necessity balance for survival. As for Rlyeh, He is happy as long as he countinues debating in UM & watching some antiGod cartoons :P


#290    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:30 PM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

If I knew you as an honest & healthy person & if I had trusted you enough I would Accepted it as a perception of a reality you have encountered I would have analysed & gathered some facts from it.

The internet is a place that allows people to be whatever the see fit, and sadly many idiots take advantage of that, and abuse it .....   If you know nothing about me, and all you have is a mere godly experience tale to read, how can you tell if I am for real or not?

What can determine you to pick out facts from my tale?  

For all you know all of it is made up because I crave attention..... Way I see it is, billions believed the stories written by unknown authors of the bible, I want that sort of attention too..I could be mad and think it's fun to be like them and crave more, to get enough to convince myself I am some sort of god myself?.......There are no limits with madness  lol :P

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#291    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:44 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

The internet is a place that allows people to be whatever the see fit, and sadly many idiots take advantage of that, and abuse it .....   If you know nothing about me, and all you have is a mere godly experience tale to read, how can you tell if I am for real or not?

What can determine you to pick out facts from my tale?  

For all you know all of it is made up because I crave attention..... Way I see it is, billions believed the stories written by unknown authors of the bible, I want that sort of attention too..I could be mad and think it's fun to be like them and crave more, to get enough to convince myself I am some sort of god myself?.......There are no limits with madness  lol :P

BMs ego is ascending into orbit again lol


#292    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

The internet is a place that allows people to be whatever the see fit, and sadly many idiots take advantage of that, and abuse it .....   If you know nothing about me, and all you have is a mere godly experience tale to read, how can you tell if I am for real or not?

What can determine you to pick out facts from my tale?  

For all you know all of it is made up because I crave attention..... Way I see it is, billions believed the stories written by unknown authors of the bible, I want that sort of attention too..I could be mad and think it's fun to be like them and crave more, to get enough to convince myself I am some sort of god myself?.......There are no limits with madness  lol :P

Nor that madness is limited to the concept of God. Lie is all around us as well as the fragments of the truth.

There is an story about lie & truth. One day they decided to go for a swim in the lake but lie came out sooner & stole the truth's clothes & ran off while leaving truth naked. So therefore lie usually sounds more convincing while the truth gets more doubt to be believed or not.

Edited by C235, 06 December 2012 - 02:09 PM.


#293    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:11 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

God does not become anything. He doesnt change at all. God remains what he has always been.
BUT human perception of, and  thus human response to, god will change dramatically.

Actually god does become something different to us all..  God will then be observed by all as the natural, no longer be seen as the supernatural ..  In fact, he would be stripped of the devine and no more miracles, because all can be explained and we would know it came from god,, thus taking it for granted.

What we once called miracles, would then be seen as natural occurances by the proven one - God.. All will be seen as natural to us and accepted that way...  
Religion would most likely cease to exist, no need for beliefs, no need for converting, and no need for anyone to preach, because god is there and we all can see him ourselves...

That would put an end to those mad folk that hurt others claiming god told them to do it... It would end so much dramatically . ..... I think that because it would have a more dramatic effect, many religious people  would be better off if science did not prove god to anyone ..

No one would see anything special about your tales  or anyone else's,  because to them, it is natural for all  and everyone is part of it.. It would be an every day thing..  Mr Walker you would be bored out of your scone lol

You really would be bored, you would find yourself searching for something science has not proved  lol. :P ..Seriously, think about it..  You post your tale of a godly experience,  1000 or more do the same, and all clicking LIKE.. NO ONE disagreeing with you.. NO ONE showing you any sort of disbelief, all is accepted as natural.. You Mr Walker will find no real challenge, gone are the skeptics and you will be bored...  

I have seen you over the years  show more interest in the skeptics than you ever would the believers that side with you..  

Yes, you may say to the odd believer who sides with you - Thank you blah blah to be polite,. but your main interest and challenge are the skeptics..  Without them, you would find it boring .. That is why you don't like it when a believer comes on to side with you and tells the skeptics off.. I have seen you urge them to stop it, because for you, skeptics make your posting more worth while than  believers would

It's ok to come on and share stories, but when you have everyone on your side believing you, and not so much as throwing you a challenge,  you will grow tired fast..

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Sorry. I misunderstood your whole post i thought we wre talking about you.

We were, I put it to you that you have met me for the first time and you know nothing about me..  ( it is hypothetical for the sake of this discussion )

Quote

  If a complete stranger came up to me and told me they had met an alien i would talk to them. I would cross examine them and find out the context, the reliablity of the witness and his/her background.  If i accepted that they were sane, healthy, and honest, then I would accpet any tale they told me as probably true. It has nothing to do with god being in the mix.
.

How would you know if they were healthy and sane? ALSO.. What if, you thought more about it, and you found so many possible theories to fit the story and it didn't fit what the person was saying?   You have thought up so many logical possible outcomes.. What would you then do ?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 December 2012 - 02:14 PM.

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#294    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Actually god does become something different to us all..  God will then be observed by all as the natural, no longer be seen as the supernatural ..  In fact, he would be stripped of the devine and no more miracles, because all can be explained and we would know it came from god,, thus taking it for granted.

What we once called miracles, would then be seen as natural occurances by the proven one - God.. All will be seen as natural to us and accepted that way...  
Religion would most likely cease to exist, no need for beliefs, no need for converting, and no need for anyone to preach, because god is there and we all can see him ourselves...

That would put an end to those mad folk that hurt others claiming god told them to do it... It would end so much dramatically . ..... I think that because it would have a more dramatic effect, many religious people  would be better off if science did not prove god to anyone ..

No one would see anything special about your tales  or anyone else's,  because to them, it is natural for all  and everyone is part of it.. It would be an every day thing..  Mr Walker you would be bored out of your scone lol

You really would be bored, you would find yourself searching for something science has not proved  lol. :P ..Seriously, think about it..  You post your tale of a godly experience,  1000 or more do the same, and all clicking LIKE.. NO ONE disagreeing with you.. NO ONE showing you any sort of disbelief, all is accepted as natural.. You Mr Walker will find no real challenge, gone are the skeptics and you will be bored...  

I have seen you over the years  show more interest in the skeptics than you ever would the believers that side with you..  

Yes, you may say to the odd believer who sides with you - Thank you blah blah to be polite,. but your main interest and challenge are the skeptics..  Without them, you would find it boring .. That is why you don't like it when a believer comes on to side with you and tells the skeptics off.. I have seen you urge them to stop it, because for you, skeptics make your posting more worth while than  believers would

It's ok to come on and share stories, but when you have everyone on your side believing you, and not so much as throwing you a challenge,  you will grow tired fast..



We were, I put it to you that you have met me for the first time and you know nothing about me..  ( it is hypothetical for the sake of this discussion )



How would you know if they were healthy and sane? ALSO.. What if, you thought more about it, and you found so many possible theories to fit the story and it didn't fit what the person was saying?   You have thought up so many logical possible outcomes.. What would you then do ?

Even now that's how it is for me. Words are but a perception. God can never become natural. In very far past even before prophets He has been observed but those who that observed him learnt nothing from it. Like I said your perception is untrained for anything but natural when you imagine it you can't help yourself but bring it closer to natural.

Edited by C235, 06 December 2012 - 02:27 PM.


#295    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

God can never become natural..

To believe that, then you must believe that science will never be able to prove god...

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#296    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

To believe that, then you must believe that science will never be able to prove god...

Maybe science can go beyond natural one day. Who knows really? Everything is possible.


#297    scowl

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 06 December 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

There is no scientific evidence to show God isnt real.

There's no evidence that shows God or any god needs to exist therefore there's no scientific reason to believe one exists.

There is an abundance of scientific evidence that shows that God, as described in the Bible, has never existed. Every time scientists have initially attributed a discovery to God, further investigation has always found a better explanation. "God did it" is no longer considered an acceptable scientific theory any more.


#298    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Maybe science can go beyond natural one day. Who knows really? Everything is possible.

If science does go above and beyond, and they prove god,  that will strip away god as being supernatural.. God therefore becomes  natural  for all to observe  along with the rest of our natural universe / world  .  It doesn't have to be human, it just has to be something that can be observed and studied that puts it part of our natural world

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.

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#299    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

If science does go above and beyond, and they prove god,  that will strip away god as being supernatural.. God therefore becomes  natural  for all to observe  along with the rest of our natural universe / world  .  It doesn't have to be human, it just has to be something that can be observed and studied that puts it part of our natural world

Yet we can't observe our own world completely. Proving God in science would be like a primitive human looking at the sun. He knew sun existed but how far could he really go in studying it, he couldn't still understand it & this is as far as science would ever hope to go if it is even possible to this extend. yet God may become part of our natural life as words hold no absolute meanings.

I'm not foretelling future. this simply is what i meant when i said science may find God.

Edited by C235, 06 December 2012 - 06:36 PM.


#300    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

View Postscowl, on 06 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

There's no evidence that shows God or any god needs to exist therefore there's no scientific reason to believe one exists.

There is an abundance of scientific evidence that shows that God, as described in the Bible, has never existed. Every time scientists have initially attributed a discovery to God, further investigation has always found a better explanation. "God did it" is no longer considered an acceptable scientific theory any more.

There is not one peice of evidence which means God cant exist.





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