84 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

THE POPE HAS A PROBLEM IN ROME

The fact that we, the Jews, have ended our dispersion, returned to our biblical homeland, and built there a modern, and vital Jewish State - a Third Jewish Commonwealth - it is extremely relevant to Christianity. However, while some evangelical Christians celebrate our return to Israel as the necessary first stage in their concept for the coming of the Messiah, others, particularly the Vatican, see it as a theological dilemma with implications for their own interpretation of the Scriptures.

They figure that, if for all these years, it was thought that the Jews were wandering as their punishment for rejecting Jesus; if for all these years it was believed that the Jews were just a prelude to Christianity and then
supposed to be reduced to a footnote, what in the world are they doing back in Israel fying F-15 fighter jets over the skies of Jerusalem?

It is no accident that the Vatican has never recognized the State of Israel; and it was also no accident that when the Archbishop of New York, John Cardinal O'Connor, visited Israel in January 1987, the Vatican refused to allow him to meet Isreli President chaim Herzog in his office. If Herzog is really at home in Jerusalem, then the Pope has a problem in Rome.

As the Christian theologian Paul van buren once put it, "Modern Israel is both unsettling and exciting for the Christian world. It is unsettling because it was not supposed to happen this way as we read the story. The very existence of Israel as a modern State is slightly mind-blowing. This was not in the script.

You thought you had some understanding of the Jews and where they were, and now they are not there. If you reflect on it all, it becomes even more unsettling, because maybe you have to go back and rethink your own story a little bit. At the same time, it is exciting, because with Israel back on the scene again, the whole story suddenly becomes modern.

For anyone with a biblical faith, the existence of this State, with Jerusalem as its capital, reawakens the whole possibility that this is not all in the past. Something about this is happening now. It is a problem we have to think about now. Maybe God is not as dead as we thought. I think this rings a note in the subconscious of even the most secular Christian."
Ben

[Armchair Educated]

Ben Masada, on 23 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

THE POPE HAS A PROBLEM IN ROME

The fact that we, the Jews, have ended our dispersion, returned to our biblical homeland, and built there a modern, and vital Jewish State - a Third Jewish Commonwealth - it is extremely relevant to Christianity. However, while some evangelical Christians celebrate our return to Israel as the necessary first stage in their concept for the coming of the Messiah, others, particularly the Vatican, see it as a theological dilemma with implications for their own interpretation of the Scriptures.

They figure that, if for all these years, it was thought that the Jews were wandering as their punishment for rejecting Jesus; if for all these years it was believed that the Jews were just a prelude to Christianity and then
supposed to be reduced to a footnote, what in the world are they doing back in Israel fying F-15 fighter jets over the skies of Jerusalem?

It is no accident that the Vatican has never recognized the State of Israel; and it was also no accident that when the Archbishop of New York, John Cardinal O'Connor, visited Israel in January 1987, the Vatican refused to allow him to meet Isreli President chaim Herzog in his office. If Herzog is really at home in Jerusalem, then the Pope has a problem in Rome.

As the Christian theologian Paul van buren once put it, "Modern Israel is both unsettling and exciting for the Christian world. It is unsettling because it was not supposed to happen this way as we read the story. The very existence of Israel as a modern State is slightly mind-blowing. This was not in the script.

You thought you had some understanding of the Jews and where they were, and now they are not there. If you reflect on it all, it becomes even more unsettling, because maybe you have to go back and rethink your own story a little bit. At the same time, it is exciting, because with Israel back on the scene again, the whole story suddenly becomes modern.

For anyone with a biblical faith, the existence of this State, with Jerusalem as its capital, reawakens the whole possibility that this is not all in the past. Something about this is happening now. It is a problem we have to think about now. Maybe God is not as dead as we thought. I think this rings a note in the subconscious of even the most secular Christian."
Ben

didnt see in the news that the jews now hold all of the holy land, what happened?

[supervike]

Modern Judiasm seems unsettling for the Muslim world as well.

[Dr. D]

I never considered the creation of Israel as being contrary to Scripture.  I just never read fiction.

[Star of the Sea]

The Holy See (the Vatican), which has UN observer status, is the only non-UN member state with which Israel has diplomatic relations and the only non-UN member state recognised by Israel. It appears they get along the best they can

[cenobite]

bunkum all of it

[Hilander]

It won't all be in the past until the Palestinians realize they aren't getting their land back from Israel and they leave each other alone and get on with their lives.

[cenobite]

Hilander, on 23 August 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

It won't all be in the past until the Palestinians realize they aren't getting their land back from Israel and they leave each other alone and get on with their lives.

that will never happen

[unit]

[Bluefinger]

Ben Masada, on 23 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

THE POPE HAS A PROBLEM IN ROME

The fact that we, the Jews, have ended our dispersion, returned to our biblical homeland, and built there a modern, and vital Jewish State - a Third Jewish Commonwealth - it is extremely relevant to Christianity. However, while some evangelical Christians celebrate our return to Israel as the necessary first stage in their concept for the coming of the Messiah, others, particularly the Vatican, see it as a theological dilemma with implications for their own interpretation of the Scriptures.

They figure that, if for all these years, it was thought that the Jews were wandering as their punishment for rejecting Jesus; if for all these years it was believed that the Jews were just a prelude to Christianity and then
supposed to be reduced to a footnote, what in the world are they doing back in Israel fying F-15 fighter jets over the skies of Jerusalem?

It is no accident that the Vatican has never recognized the State of Israel; and it was also no accident that when the Archbishop of New York, John Cardinal O'Connor, visited Israel in January 1987, the Vatican refused to allow him to meet Isreli President chaim Herzog in his office. If Herzog is really at home in Jerusalem, then the Pope has a problem in Rome.

As the Christian theologian Paul van buren once put it, "Modern Israel is both unsettling and exciting for the Christian world. It is unsettling because it was not supposed to happen this way as we read the story. The very existence of Israel as a modern State is slightly mind-blowing. This was not in the script.

You thought you had some understanding of the Jews and where they were, and now they are not there. If you reflect on it all, it becomes even more unsettling, because maybe you have to go back and rethink your own story a little bit. At the same time, it is exciting, because with Israel back on the scene again, the whole story suddenly becomes modern.

For anyone with a biblical faith, the existence of this State, with Jerusalem as its capital, reawakens the whole possibility that this is not all in the past. Something about this is happening now. It is a problem we have to think about now. Maybe God is not as dead as we thought. I think this rings a note in the subconscious of even the most secular Christian."
Ben

Interesting.  It doesn't really unsettle me.

The book of Daniel was likely written slightly before the Maccabean Revolt.  The Jews that wrote obviously thought that the Messiah would deliver the Jewish nation and that the obedient thing for the Jews to do until then would be to suffer with dignity.  It was the author's belief that the Jewish nation should not take up arms.  It didn't happen that way.

And later the Pharisees and Sadducees came about.  They had their Civil War at 100 CE.  Around this time, the book of Susanna, obviously written by a Sadducee, began circulating.   The end result?  The Sadducees won the high priesthood.

A bit later, the Pharisees appealed to Pompey to lead the Romans into Jerusalem, dethrone their king, kick the Sadducees out of the high priesthood, and install the Pharisees.  Pompey desecrated the Most Holy Place, to which the Pharisees said was a curse from God for the toleration of the Sadducees in the high priesthood.  Pompey installed Herod's father as king and placed a heavy tax on the Jewish Nation for that war.  Judea had become a Roman province.  Around this time, the book of Enoch was circulating.  Evidently, the reader anticipated that the Messiah would crush the Romans and liberate the Jewish people.  Instead, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and exiled the Jews in 70 CE.

What happened to the Messianic prophecies?  You know, all the ones that the Jews say Jesus never fulfilled?  Why are they still waiting on the Messiah?  Why has their deliverance been so long overdue?  If anything, the Jews had reason to be unsettled.  Things did not go how they planned.

As a Jew, what is your response to these questions?  I look forward to your answers.

Blue

[Ben Masada]

Ever Learning, on 23 August 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

didnt see in the news that the jews now hold all of the holy land, what happened?

It happens that they got strong. Haven't you heard that "the winner takes all?" The other day my son told me that he doesn't like to hear that the Jews must have the title to the holy land because God has granted it to them. The truth, he said, is that the land belongs to the stronger. Whenever the Arabs get stronger and take the holy land, then it will belong to them. But first, they must fight for it. That's survival of the fittest. Then, I said: Do you know something? You are damn right.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 01 September 2012 - 05:27 PM.

[Ben Masada]

supervike, on 23 August 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Modern Judiasm seems unsettling for the Muslim world as well.

In what sense is modern Judaism unsettling, would you enlighten me with?

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Dr. D, on 23 August 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

I never considered the creation of Israel as being contrary to Scripture.  I just never read fiction.

Since you never read fiction, you must not know that Arabs started dwelling in the Land of Israel in the later part of the 7th Century. Tha's how some of them became known as Palestinians, after the name the Romans changed to from Land of Israel. The Jewish People have been dwelling the half crescent for about 4,000 years. What happened in 1948 was not creation of Israel but the formation of the third Commonwealth to celebrate the return of the Jews after the last exile.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Star of the Sea, on 23 August 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

The Holy See (the Vatican), which has UN observer status, is the only non-UN member state with which Israel has diplomatic relations and the only non-UN member state recognised by Israel. It appears they get along the best they can

Yes, I had missed that part and I could not fix my mistake. But it was only almost 50 years of Israeli statehood that the Vatican decided to recongnize Israel in December the 30th, 1993. Now, to say that the Vatican is the ONLY UN member with which Israel has diplomatic relations is laughable. You must be joking.

Ben

[Star of the Sea]

Ben Masada, on 01 September 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Yes, I had missed that part and I could not fix my mistake. But it was only almost 50 years of Israeli statehood that the Vatican decided to recongnize Israel in December the 30th, 1993. Now, to say that the Vatican is the ONLY UN member with which Israel has diplomatic relations is laughable. You must be joking.

Ben

Ben,

Re-read my post:

The Holy See (the Vatican), which has UN observer status, is the only non-UN member state with which Israel has diplomatic relations and the only non-UN member state recognised by Israel. It appears they get along the best they can.

NON being the 'operative' word!