54 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

Quote

…research, however, led to a key discovery: The chimps who invaded their neighbors were suffering from shrinking territory and food sources. They were struggling for survival. Groups with adequate resources didn’t raid other colonies. The aggression wasn’t a behavioral constant but was caused by the stress they were under. Their genes gave them the capacity for violence, but the stress factor had to be there to trigger it into combat. This new research showed that war is not inevitable but rather a function of the stress a society is under. Our biological nature doesn’t force us to war, it just gives us the potential for it. Without stress to provoke it, violence can remain one of the many unexpressed capacities our human evolution has given us. Studies by professors Douglas Fry, Frans de Waal, and Robert Sapolsky present the evidence for this.
Militarists point to history and say it’s just one war after another. But that’s the history only of our patriarchal civilization. The early matriarchal civilization of south-eastern Europe enjoyed centuries of peace. UCLA anthropologist Marija Gimbutas describes the archeological research in The Civilization of the Goddess. No trace of warfare has been found in excavations of the Minoan, Harappa, and Caral cultures. Many of the Pacific islands were pacifistic. The ancient Vedic civilization of India had meditation techniques that preserved the peace, and those are being revived today to reduce stress in society...

Our society, though, has a deeply entrenched assumption that stress is essential to life. Many of our social and economic structures are based on conflict. Capitalism’s need for continually expanding profits generates stress in all of us. We’ve been indoctrinated to think this is normal and natural, but it’s really pathological. It damages life in ways we can barely perceive because they’re so built into us…
…We can create a society that meets human needs and distributes the world’s resources more evenly… But that’s going to take basic changes…
These changes threaten the power holders of our society. Since capitalism is a predatory social and economic system, predatory personalities rise to power. They view the world through a lens of aggression. But it’s not merely a view. They really are surrounded by enemies. So they believe this false axiom they are propagating that wars are inevitable.
In the past their predecessors defended their power by propagating other nonsense: kings had a divine right to rule over us, Blacks were inferior to Whites, women should obey men. We’ve outgrown those humbugs, and we can outgrow this one.

.............

Of course, as Gail of ‘Wit’s End’ pointed out, we will inevitably need to address the problem of overpopulation:

…although once upon a time some tribes (arguably) may have lived cooperatively and harmoniously (although the opposite is certainly more common) the only reason they could do so is because their numbers were so low and food was plentiful and relatively easy to obtain. Once human population outstrips resources, things get ugly no matter what social or cultural system is in place. And I don’t know of a place where human population didn’t eventually overrun the environment, with the possible exception of cultures that practiced infanticide, or had the ability to export people willing to emigrate.
It seems to me the problem is that we have filled every corner of the globe that is remotely habitable, and then some, and yet our population and levels of consumption continue to increase. There is no place left to emigrate to. It can’t last.

http://collapseofind...vilization.com/

Br Cornelius

[Orcseeker]

Interesting article, even in education, stress is said to be a good thing, but having a certain level of stress that maximises work efficiency and study effectiveness.

War, in this day and age isn't inevitable. The threat of terrorism isn't actually that high to us but it is perceived as much through the media. This apparent threat which could happen at "anytime, anywhere". You could imagine the stress this would instill in the populace and get them behind a war.

Even the WMD threat which has a reach to kill anyone on the planet no matter where they were is fear instilling into the populace.

These could only increase levels of stress. Also somewhat make them feel like the chimps who felt their land was being taken away and threats slowly enroaching into their lives. Much like the threat of WMDs closing up the problem of long distance threat and terrorism a threat right at their doorstep.

Perfect way to get people to hop on the war machine.

Edited by Orcseeker, 09 December 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Babe Ruth]

A wise man has said that if wars can be started by lies, they can be stopped by truth.

Another wise man, H.L. Mencken observed that the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of the imaginary.

At least the chimps are hungry when they go pillaging....

[Rafterman]

Meh.

More Kumbaya bull****.

[Br Cornelius]

Rafterman, on 09 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Meh.

More Kumbaya bull****.

It is the growth imperative which forces societies to come into direct conflict - there is nothing imperative about the need for growth - its simply a facet of the particular economic model we choose to follow. That's not bull**** - that's a fact.

Br Cornelius

[RavenHawk]

In the professional field, this is known as a crack pot.  Stress is a natural part of our biology.  One doesn’t need anyone else to say it is (or isn’t).  We all experience it.  Stress is induced by a lack of something or the desire to gain something.  In its most basic form, it finds the family provider trying to do so.  Food just doesn’t lie in one’s lap and there are life threatening dangers every time one when looking for food.  

Given that as the definition of Capitalism, then even the Soviet Union was Capitalist.  Just because one can find evidence that a culture or two had no war, doesn’t mean that it didn’t.  Archaeology is finding out new sites all the time or deciphering their secrets and they are rewriting the history books.  But those cultures aren’t around any more to ask now are they.

[Travelling Man]

Brother C, I think it's quite a leap to go from raiding for food to ensure survival to "Capitalism causes all wars."

[Br Cornelius]

Travelling Man, on 09 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Brother C, I think it's quite a leap to go from raiding for food to ensure survival to "Capitalism causes all wars."

Capitalism is the embodiment of Growth as an organizing principle - endless growth requires endless resources (find me an example where it doesn't). That is not possible in a finite world. When we build a society on the principle of endless growth we inevitably have to acquire new resource bases in order to feed it. Wars will become more brutal and more far reaching as essential resources become in short supply. Already we have many examples of wars triggered by resource stress - this can only get worse.

The basic reality is that we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that our resource base is finite and live within the ability of the planetary system to provide those resources on a sustainable basis, or we are going to have to get used constant war. Until we address the driver (growth) we cannot prevent the proliferation of wars.

The Bronze age was a period in archaeology which is noted for have long period without significant wars. It had low populations and a very benign climate - it is generally recognized that this allowed for a high standard of living without the recourse to resource conflicts and is generally considered a golden age for mankind. Climate change collapsed those cultures and the Iron age sprang out of this collapse and was noted for high levels of conflict and the emergence of widespread recourse to slavery and the need for raiding parties to feed that slave trade. The stress in this case was a collapse of agriculture.

Stress cannot be avoided on a day to day basis - but the degree to which it plays a role in our everyday lives is detrimental to civil society and personal health. Those countries which have a less competitive civil society generally have less social violence (think Scandinavia compared to America). There is nothing inevitable or desirable about burdening ourselves with so much stress and it is generally only good for those of a highly competitive and acquisitive nature - which is needless to say a tiny fraction of society.

Ultimately the worship of growth/wealth goes or it will cost us dearly in quality of life.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 December 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[and then]

It sounds as though we need to invite a substantial number of those currently alive to not remain so.  Tricky thing, that.  My father in law is 84 and has for years been an advocate of limiting populations globally.  He recently received a certificate acknowledging his support for Negative Population Growth.  We often discuss the idea of limiting populations but the reality is that human beings are driven by a biological imperative to act contrary to these ideas.  As harsh as it seems to casually say it - nature will always thin the herd.  If war is not inevitable in this generation then we would be the first in human history that this did not hold true for...

[Br Cornelius]

The contention that we are biological driven to expand our population, compete with others for resources, fight for high status is just BS. All of these things we have chosen to do because of the lifestyle choices we have made. There are many examples of peoples across the globe and across history who have chosen not to take this path.

We have choices if we are wise enough to take them.

However at this moment it seems likely that nature will indeed force our hand and constrain our activities to some degree before we decide to do it ourselves.

Br Cornelius

[DieChecker]

Quote

War is not inevitable
Its a response to the stress of capitalism.

Capitalism and 9,999 other variables. Where ever any two humans are in close proximity there will be stress.

War also is brought about by individual leadership, who can be ambitious, greedy, corrupt, or simply stupid.

Blaming war on Capitalism is a giant naive statement.

[RavenHawk]

Br Cornelius, on 09 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Capitalism is the embodiment of Growth as an organizing principle - endless growth requires endless resources (find me an example where it doesn't). That is not possible in a finite world. When we build a society on the principle of endless growth we inevitably have to acquire new resource bases in order to feed it. Wars will become more brutal and more far reaching as essential resources become in short supply. Already we have many examples of wars triggered by resource stress - this can only get worse.

I’m only going to respond to this part real quickly because I have to fly…

This is not a finite world when it comes to resources.  What we have is limited access to these resources.  That is what causes wars.  That is what makes us strong and the reason Man survives.

Before Einstein, we were far more limited in our resources.  What discoveries are yet to come?  We have unlimited resources and that base always changes.  That resource is Man himself.  We just need the stress to unlock the awesome power of Man.  And wars are just one expression of that.  And the Invisible Hand is part of that.

[lightly]

interesting discussion.    I've always thought that most wars were over resources , no matter what sort of excuses and speeches are made over them.

I get Cornelius' point about many cultures being content with sufficiency. That is just the only way it works for many.    Self sufficiency is the best kind.

Ya,  economic  'systems' promote   Expansion.

[DieChecker]

If having enough was enough to prevent violence/war, then we'd see those in poverty, who get just enough not turning to violence or crime. Gangs form regardless of the financial situations. War is not just economic, it it cultural and societal. And has 9,999 other causes, like I said earlier.

[acidhead]

The first rule of economics is scarcity.  The first rule of politics is to ignore the first rule of economics. --Thomas Sowell

Good luck getting anything to change without destroying liberty in the process.