Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Hawking: 'Big Bang did not need God'


  • Please log in to reply
125 replies to this topic

#31    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 8,431 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:58 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 18 April 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Hawking has good support, excellent doctors and no doubt a strong will.  Hawking is not the issue, however.  He made the point that the big bang happened and that it didn't need God.  He is correct, and there is abundant evidence for anyone who is willing to look.  I did a quick Google search on "evidence for the big bang" and found plenty of sites that explain it all, not just what happened but how we know that is what happened.
It's true that there is loads of evidence for the Big Bang.  However, what happened next - inflation - is damn dicey.

According to current quantum theory, nothing would stop the inflation phase.  Quantum variablility would cause it to continue randomly, with some areas not inflating, while others continue to do so.

Last time I read about this, the inflating areas would very quickly take over the entire Universe, and what you would have is, essentially, permanent inflation with ever-decreasing (in relative size) area of no inflation.

Obvioulsy, that's not happening.  Also obviously, you can blame this problem on outr lack of full understanding of reality.

On the other hand, though, it certainly indicates that we absolutely don't know enough about it to make a statement like "The Big Bang didn't need God," which is merely technically correct because the statement doesn't mention inflation.

Without inflation, the Big Bang would have been no big whoop.

Lastly, it seems a little disingenuous for Hawking to poke fun at people by sarcastically asking "what was God doing before the Divine Creation," while at the same talk he went into M-Theory as a possible answer to how the Universe came to be.

M-Theory postulates time before the Big Bang - just like the religious minded do.  The M-Theory time is not the time we experience, however, it is the time experienced in the multiverse where the membranes (branes) are floating around and occasionally knocking into each other (causing big bangs - but not inflation.)

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#32    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 8,431 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:01 AM

View PostWoIverine, on 18 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

The laws of physics just magically coalesced and wrote themselves into existence soon after the big bang I guess.
Yes, there is even evidence that this is what happened, except not magically.  There's a new field of Cosmology that studies exactly that.  One wierd idea in that field is the physical laws and constants experience a kind of evolution, where unsuccessful rules are weeded out into non existence.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#33    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 8,431 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostDavid Thomson, on 18 April 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Hawking draws his conclusions about the Universe based upon his analysis of data and equations.  So we have to assume the data is accurate and the equations have a solid foundation.  What if the system of physics currently in use is flawed?  Sure, the physics works in many cases, but it does not work in all cases.  For example, the calculation of impedance and other values requires the invention of the non-existent square root of negative one, the imaginary number.  And even then, the calculation comes close only for a limited range of values.  
That "imaginary" number is as real as any other number.

Isaac Asimov claimed to have demonstrated this truth to his English prof as an undergraduate, who was ridiculing the concept in much the same way you are.

His Prof asked him to explain how SQRT(-1) exists, and Asimov said that he would, if the prof would hand him a "half a piece of chalk."
The prof handed him some chalk, and Asimov said "This is a piece of chalk.  I asked for a half piece of chalk.

Does a half piece of chalk exist?  Does the number "one" exist?  Where is it?

View PostDavid Thomson, on 18 April 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

I have found a possible source for the imaginary number.  It is the result of choosing the wrong notation for charge in equations.  If charge is notated as a distributed quantity (squared) relative to a single dimension of mass, then it is easy to unify the fundamental forces using Newtonian type equations.  
Flapdoodle Deluxe!

Sorry, the imaginary number i is the root of the equation x2+1=0.  That equation, written as y=x2+1 is a parabola you can easily graph in the XY plane.

Quadratic equations have roots.  Quadratics, and i, predate the discovery of electricity itself.

View PostDavid Thomson, on 18 April 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

People need to question Stephen Hawking and the flaws of the science he relies on before drawing conclusions about the nature of the Universe.  Such ignorant statements that he makes could become the basis of a new religion, which is just as destructive as any his statements might aim to replace.
People do question the flaws of science.  Some good questioners actually make a living doing so.  They are called "Pysicists."  Hawking has never accomplished a "Big Thing," like relativity, but he has, on a few occasions, completely demolished some things in Physics that were, before Hawking, thought to be understood.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#34    The Black Ghost

The Black Ghost

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 48 posts
  • Joined:22 Sep 2009

Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:21 AM

Why, in the face of something we don't yet know, must people simply invent things to fill the gaps? Seems pretty silly to me...


#35    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,544 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 18 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

No. Law of physics have to exist before the big bang. It didn't just expanded by itself without a trigger.

Maybe the big bang didn't even happen at all. We're still inside the big bang...
You contradict yourself; if the big bang didn't happen, we can't still be inside it.  I don't think you have much of an idea what you mean when you talk about "The laws of physics."


#36    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,544 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:09 AM

The latest studies of the background radiation indicate that inflation was real.  It may be that we are in a bubble of what we think of as normal space while for the most part inflation goes on and on, every now and then producing other bubbles like us, or there may be a self-cancelling factor that stops the inflation when certain thresholds are reached.  We are reaching out to times and places so remote from us that we are able to conclude anything at all is astonishing.

That there are unanswered questions does not negate the evidence we do have.  There will always be unanswered questions, and we may be approachig a point where the questions become so extreme to test that no device we can build will give us answers.


#37    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,575 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:02 AM

View PostKing Ircher, on 19 April 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Yeah, whatever giberiish that is, here's my oppinion:P.
Big Bang Theory = Absolute Rubbish; Not a bit of evidence to Support
God = Somewhat Unrealistic; Enough evidence IS here however to support such an idea.
The Big bang theory has scientific evidence, God has none. And that isn't an opinion, it's a fact in science.

Edited by Rlyeh, 19 April 2013 - 06:04 AM.


#38    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,544 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:23 AM

Yes the big bang has abundant evidence, I wouldn't say that God has no evidence, but just that the evidence is unconvincing.


#39    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,575 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 April 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Yes the big bang has abundant evidence, I wouldn't say that God has no evidence, but just that the evidence is unconvincing.
That's why I carefully used the term scientific evidence, God may have evidence but it doesn't hold up to the scientific method.


#40    GirlfromOz

GirlfromOz

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 153 posts
  • Joined:12 Nov 2011

Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostJaygatz, on 18 April 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

It is possiable that the big bang was god.  Who knows.  Thats like what the first poster said.  You have to have faith to believe in the GOD concept.  However Ive read a lot of Hawkings work and Ill tell you it makes a lot of sense.  There was a show on awhile back on DICS and it was something he said that caught my attention.  At the very beginning of the universe there was nothing not even time.  NOTHING could exist before time therefore neither could god.  Sooooo maybe the big bang was god coming into exisitance.... who really knows right?  God could have even been the very first life form in the universe.  However all that being said, I don't know if god exists or not all I know is Ive read a lot and have come to my own conclusion :)
Great post tho
Yes I agree.I think that the big bang was God! He created a physical realm.The previous realm was God,in spiritual form.Then came the physical realm.

Edited by GirlfromOz, 19 April 2013 - 11:39 AM.


#41    GirlfromOz

GirlfromOz

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 153 posts
  • Joined:12 Nov 2011

Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:09 PM

It is hard for many to understand God in all his works.He was there at the beginning of time.He created man in his own image.Man was created in God's image.Therefore,man was blessed in being the one creation that God cherished.Even God told his angels to worship us,man.Satan hated that very fact.Even the fallen angels that followed Satan hated us all.We are all his children.He prizes us above all because we are truly his highest project that he ever created!Just remember that God loves us all.We are his children!

Edited by GirlfromOz, 19 April 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#42    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,544 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:03 PM

Your notion is not at all hard to understand, it just isn't true.


#43    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 8,431 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 April 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

The latest studies of the background radiation indicate that inflation was real.  It may be that we are in a bubble of what we think of as normal space while for the most part inflation goes on and on, every now and then producing other bubbles like us, or there may be a self-cancelling factor that stops the inflation when certain thresholds are reached.  We are reaching out to times and places so remote from us that we are able to conclude anything at all is astonishing.
Here's a PDF from Sci Am about the subject:
The Inflation Debate

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#44    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,575 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostGirlfromOz, on 19 April 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

It is hard for many to understand God in all his works.He was there at the beginning of time.He created man in his own image.Man was created in God's image.Therefore,man was blessed in being the one creation that God cherished.Even God told his angels to worship us,man.Satan hated that very fact.Even the fallen angels that followed Satan hated us all.We are all his children.He prizes us above all because we are truly his highest project that he ever created!Just remember that God loves us all.We are his children!
Everything you said is unsubstantiated and about as factually correct as Zeus ruling Mount Olympus.
You need to understand this isn't the preaching forum.


#45    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,544 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

For science that article is a bit long in the tooth.

http://www.nature.co...niverse-1.12658

http://www.nature.co...niverse-1.12658

Edited by Frank Merton, 19 April 2013 - 01:38 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users