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What evidence distinguishes a Witness of Rev?

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#1    Raptor Witness

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM

What evidence would you look for, to determine if a Witness of Revelation had appeared on earth, based upon your present knowledge; without looking up the reference?

This isn't a memory test, or a Bible school study quiz. It's about what you already know, without any reference.

Imagine that in an instant, every Bible on earth vanished, and all you had, was what was in your head now.

What would you be looking for, and please be specific?

If you haven't a clue, without referencing the passage, then please pass on a reply.

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#2    Perfection

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:12 AM

From my present understanding everyone has a guardian standing directly behind them & that Guardian has all the powers of God. Many paranormal encounters happen  behind people when they're alone & that is exactly what happened to the guy in revelations. It was simply his own guardian showing him a symbolic message that related to his own concepts of reality, as guardians do to people all over the world every day


#3    shrooma

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 16 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

If you haven't a clue, without referencing the passage, then please pass on a reply.
.
.....and the winner of 'UM's shortest thread' is.....

sometimes, your signature is worth nothing at all.
.

#4    Raptor Witness

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:13 PM

View Postshrooma, on 16 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

.
.....and the winner of 'UM's shortest thread' is.....
You may be right, Shrooma. This forum may not be Christian enough to handle this subject. However, I would encourage the readership to focus more on the mystery of the phenomena, than on the religion it proceeds from. I know this is a tough crowd to please.

I would be looking for demonstrations of power over the elements that are completely ignored or denied at first. The reason for this is simple; we know they appear at a time when humanism is at its height. Men will be literally on the verge of attaining the Tree of Life through genetic engineering.

Instead of looking to God for the Tree of Life by resurrection, people will start looking to stem cells, and organ regeneration, which are within visible reach.

However, as we know from Genesis, the way to the Tree of Life is guarded by a powerful angel with a flaming sword.

These guys are here to destroy the power of humanism, and the spell it holds over all of us, while ironically elevating God's power through two human beings.

Their appearance will present a conundrum of sorts, because on the one hand you have the humanists saying ... this is the way to the Tree of Life, and they'll be saying .... not so fast.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 16 June 2013 - 10:30 PM.

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#5    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 11:46 PM

I think jhons visions are interpretations of actual events that have happened and will happen again. Cycles.

For example. The native American apocalypse pretty much concluded with the sound of trumpets as the people were caught up in clouds. Have you ever seen a representation of wounded knee.  it is revelations unfolded before your very eye complete with plagues, war, persecution and the mark of the beast.

Its uncanny how accurate visions from a mad man can be.

Without biblical reference, I can spot the destruction of a population a mike away. When it starts to happen if it does in my life, I will see it. We are balanced on a knifes edge as it is.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#6    aquatus1

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:02 AM

I would be looking for a person who advances Truth without denying reality.


#7    Raptor Witness

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:40 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 17 June 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I would be looking for a person who advances Truth without denying reality.
I'm very glad the ground hasn't swallowed you yet. I was beginning to wonder.

Your reality and my reality may be very different, but does that mean the truth is?

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#8    aquatus1

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:16 AM

Probably.  Truth, being a philosophical construct, is never objective.  Reality, being objective, is the same for everyone, however people tend to filter reality through their philosophy and refer to the result as Truth, forgetting that reality is not open to interpretation.


#9    xFelix

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:10 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 17 June 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Probably.  Truth, being a philosophical construct, is never objective.  Reality, being objective, is the same for everyone, however people tend to filter reality through their philosophy and refer to the result as Truth, forgetting that reality is not open to interpretation.

That is one point of view, In my own point of view reality is not objective, it is relative to the individual. What you deem as real others might not necessarily agree with. You see how skeptics go around thinking people who believe in God are insane? You try walking up to any native tribe that hasn't been influenced too much by modern civilization and try explaining to them the concept of an airplane... You'll see how quickly you become the one that is told how irrational and idiotic you're being and those things don't exist. Reality is guided by perception of one's own experiences, unless you have seen an airplane.. An airplane would simply not be real to you. Unless you have seen a ghost, a ghost simply would not be real to you... The laws of physics themselves are only real because one learns of them at an early age. Go ahead walk out into the jungle and bring me back a sack of laws of physics... They don't exist out there, just in our minds. Why? because we came up with the idea of explaining what we can and can't do.. Before we came up with this concept, it was not real. It became real when we experienced it first hand.

As far as signs of the end, I would say I would keep three in mind.

1) Super Volcanoes erupting.
2) Large Comet impacting.
3) Man made global warfare.

I don't think all three need to happen, each one individually can suffice to kill off most life on earth.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#10    aquatus1

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:47 AM

View PostxFelix, on 17 June 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

That is one point of view, In my own point of view reality is not objective, it is relative to the individual. What you deem as real others might not necessarily agree with.

Hmm...Kinda by definition, "objective" isn't a "What you deem as real" situation.  It isn't relative to the individual, but rather, it is defined as having properties or qualities that many individuals agree on without previous exposure to it (ironically, we know this because we have objective definitions of words in dictionaries;  I'm sure there's a recursive paradox in there somewhere).

You are, of course, welcome to your own opinions, but that thing you are describing up there?  There is really no way that it can mean "objective".  It's kind of the polar opposite, actually.

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You see how skeptics go around thinking people who believe in God are insane?

Not really.  All the skeptics I know are Christian, Buddhist, or Shinto (I haven't met any atheists in Japan, even among expats).

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You try walking up to any native tribe that hasn't been influenced too much by modern civilization and try explaining to them the concept of an airplane... You'll see how quickly you become the one that is told how irrational and idiotic you're being and those things don't exist.

Sure.  People's opinions vary greatly as determined by their experience.  Heck, you don't even have to experience something to be willing to assign a certain level of belief to it (or none at all, depending).

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Reality is guided by perception of one's own experiences, unless you have seen an airplane.. An airplane would simply not be real to you. Unless you have seen a ghost, a ghost simply would not be real to you...

You are limiting experience to personal visual observation.  That's a pretty narrow range.  I don't have to see a submarine to believe they exist, nor does not having seen one or experienced one affect their reality in any way.  Submarines continue to exist, regardless of my opinion to them (which is a good test to see if you are talking about objectivity or opinion;  If the object being denied existence remains utterly indifferent to your denial, what you got is probably an opinion).

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The laws of physics themselves are only real because one learns of them at an early age.  Go ahead walk out into the jungle and bring me back a sack of laws of physics... They don't exist out there, just in our minds. Why? because we came up with the idea of explaining what we can and can't do.. Before we came up with this concept, it was not real. It became real when we experienced it first hand.

Similarly, my ignorance on the laws of physics does not keep the laws from existing.  They were there long before we came around.  That someone was finally able to write them down in a format I could conceptualize is neither here nor there.  Just because I don't understand a story written in kanji doesn't mean that story doesn't exist.  It is a reflection of my ignorance, not of reality.

Quote

As far as signs of the end, I would say I would keep three in mind.

1) Super Volcanoes erupting.
2) Large Comet impacting.
3) Man made global warfare.

I don't think all three need to happen, each one individually can suffice to kill off most life on earth.

Is that a thing?  I keep hearing conflicting reports about how the End is supposed to come about.  Everything from zombie nightmares, to 2012 disaster porn, to "No one is going to know till it happens".


#11    xFelix

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:07 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 17 June 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Hmm...Kinda by definition, "objective" isn't a "What you deem as real" situation.  It isn't relative to the individual, but rather, it is defined as having properties or qualities that many individuals agree on without previous exposure to it (ironically, we know this because we have objective definitions of words in dictionaries;  I'm sure there's a recursive paradox in there somewhere).

You are, of course, welcome to your own opinions, but that thing you are describing up there?  There is really no way that it can mean "objective".  It's kind of the polar opposite, actually.



Not really.  All the skeptics I know are Christian, Buddhist, or Shinto (I haven't met any atheists in Japan, even among expats).



Sure.  People's opinions vary greatly as determined by their experience.  Heck, you don't even have to experience something to be willing to assign a certain level of belief to it (or none at all, depending).



You are limiting experience to personal visual observation.  That's a pretty narrow range.  I don't have to see a submarine to believe they exist, nor does not having seen one or experienced one affect their reality in any way.  Submarines continue to exist, regardless of my opinion to them (which is a good test to see if you are talking about objectivity or opinion;  If the object being denied existence remains utterly indifferent to your denial, what you got is probably an opinion).



Similarly, my ignorance on the laws of physics does not keep the laws from existing.  They were there long before we came around.  That someone was finally able to write them down in a format I could conceptualize is neither here nor there.  Just because I don't understand a story written in kanji doesn't mean that story doesn't exist.  It is a reflection of my ignorance, not of reality.



Is that a thing?  I keep hearing conflicting reports about how the End is supposed to come about.  Everything from zombie nightmares, to 2012 disaster porn, to "No one is going to know till it happens".

So what you're saying is that people who live in "their own world" where sub marines do not exist.. This is not reality... Oh no they must still exist, because they exist to you... That's interesting. I guess that would work both ways then.. By your standards their deities must exist to you, because they exist to them.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#12    aquatus1

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:53 AM

View PostxFelix, on 17 June 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

So what you're saying is that people who live in "their own world" where sub marines do not exist.. This is not reality... Oh no they must still exist, because they exist to you...

Did...you not get the definition I posted?  Does something need to be clarified, regarding individual perception?

Submarines don't exist on my or anyone's say-so.  They exist because a bunch of people who had never seen, heard of, or could give two figs about submarines could be led to one and individually come to the conclusion that, out of a description of a car, a plane, or a submarine, it most closely matches the submarine.

Whether they don't or can't understand what a submarine actually does, or whether they believe it can do it or not, does not keep the submarine from not existing.  That is a reflection of their ignorance on the subject matter, not of the submarine's existence.  It existed before they came to look at it, it existed while they were looking at it, and it continues to exist after they leave, regardless of their opinions on the matter.

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That's interesting. I guess that would work both ways then.. By your standards their deities must exist to you, because they exist to them.

You didn't get a very good handle on my standards.  And when I say mine, I mean, of course, those of the English language as accepted and defined by the colleges and universities that publish the official dictionaries used to define words and their meanings.

According to my standards, unless the properties of their deities were agreed upon by multiple people who had never had previous exposure to said deity, I would not be able to refer to their claims as objective descriptions, but rather as subjective opinions.

And, Boy!  Some people are really subjective about their opinions on what their deity is like!

Most self-proclaimed witnesses to anything mystical tend to describe their encounter or deity in a way suspiciously similar to their own personal views on matters prior to any sort of encounter.  I can't recall who said it, but there is a quote that goes something along the lines of:

"I tend to be wary of those who claim to speak for God, as I can't help but notice how often God's opinions tend to mirror their own."


#13    Paranoid Android

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:39 AM

Considering my opinion on Revelation is that we are already in the End Times and have been ever since Jesus conquered death by rising from the grave (an Eschatological view known as Amillennialism), then I cannot say that I'm actively looking for two witnesses who have a very specific role in witnessing to Christ's message during a great tribulation (or is that Great Tribulation capitalised).  Instead of looking for a specific individual who may or may not have the capability of performing miracles (or even rising from the dead, I have a memory that they are supposed to be executed by the Beast but conquer death and show yet another miracle - which in itself was intended as a counterpoint to the Beast's own miraculous resurrection before uniting the governments into a One World Order), I'm instead thinking of them as allegorical of a church and/or teachers that spreads the real message of Christ, rather than a false teaching, as some of many anti-Christs (there are more than one anti-Christ, there are in fact many anti-Christs who have come) may do by deceiving those they follow into non-biblical teachings.

Of course, if I end up being wrong, and the believers are one day magically "raptured" up then hopefully I'll be among them (is not believing in a Rapture sufficient reason to be denied it)?  And if I am "left behind" (as the name of the book might imply, though I've never read the books - I prefer my theology to come from scholarly sources) then that's something I'll have to deal with when the time comes, and then begin looking for a charismatic leader who will unite the governments, die and resurrect then set himself up as God on earth, persecute us, give us a mark on our right hands or forehead (666 or 616, depending on which ancient texts you are using) and then finally near the very end look for two witnesses who preach out against the anti-Christ and perform miracles.  But I'm not expecting this to happen so it's more a hypothetical scenario here.

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#14    Zaphod222

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:37 AM

So what evidence distinguishes you as a witness for the orbiting teapot?

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#15    Copen

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:02 AM

The ability to burn up with a flame of fire proceeding from their mouths anyone who tries to harm them, is a pretty distinguishing evidence.  Shutting up the heaven so that it will not rain and then turning water into blood should be pretty convincing. The beast (the devil) that ascends out of hell will kill them. To be sure no one steals the dead bodies they will be watched every minute. They will not be dressed for burial, nor put in a grave.  When they come back to life, it should be pretty convincing that they are the two witnesses sent to preach.

The last days started in the apostolic age, when they said, "these last days." The last days have been going on for 2,000 years (give or take a few years).

I am in agreement with the Christians who don't believe this "rapture" theory that Christians are going to be snatched out before the persecution and tribulation era. I do believe there is going to be a judgment and separating of Christians, one from the other. Two preachers will be working the gospel field and one will be taken.

I picture being "taken" as mass numbers in a sudden death rather than a snatching away into heaven. After all I Cor. 15: 52 says, "In the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP..." There a many trumpets being sounded in Revelation. I think right before God calls His people to come out of the harlot is a trump.

The harlot is a wealthy false teaching Christian church. A harlot sells herself in order to live - - and sometimes quite financially well off. The harlot church is here today selling trinkets, crosses, trips, dvds, yard sales, bake sales, cruises, & etc. You name it and they sell it in order to survive, or finance their pet charity. Yet, God says in Revelation about the harlot, "Come out of her MY PEOPLE, lest you be partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not her plagues."

Sounds like Christians, like the blind Laodiocia church, will be very actively committed to the harlot. Undoubtedly, many Christians will stay in her and therefore go through some anguish.

Wouldn't there be mass confusion if many Christians suddenly died and had to be buried in mass graves because of the overwhelming numbers of them, while many more Christians are still alive? Sheep and goats. The sickle reaping the wheat.





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