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Britain's Political Poltergeist


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#16    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:51 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 07 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

So going into the EU with the attitude they had was the reason for the UK's industrial decline, then? It couldn't have been anything to do with the postwar Labour govt.'s mania for nationalising everything in sight, and the consequent hopeless uncompetitiveness?
The industrial base was still intact at the end of that period. There was an active policy of class warfare to undermine the power base of Labour.
The Labour movement created the perfect storm which allowed the Thatcher policy of deindustrialization.

Meanwhile throughout Northern Europe Labour and Management learned how to work together for national strategic objectives and created the wonder economies of Germany and the Netherlands and Scandinavia.

Ultimately the country and its people were the losers from the class warfare which raged from the 1950's  to the 1990's.
A tragic waste of generations of talented people.

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#17    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:58 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 January 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

The industrial base was still intact at the end of that period. There was an active policy of class warfare to undermine the power base of Labour.
The Labour movement created the perfect storm which allowed the Thatcher policy of deindustrialization.

Meanwhile throughout Northern Europe Labour and Management learned how to work together for national strategic objectives and created the wonder economies of Germany and the Netherlands and Scandinavia.

Ultimately the country and its people were the losers from the class warfare which raged from the 1950's  to the 1990's.
A tragic waste of generations of talented people.

Br Cornelius
but that peolitical reading doesn't alter the fact that the products offered by state-owned industries in the 70s were famous for their hopelesness and their uncompetitiveness with those offered by Foreigners; you can't blame Maggie for British Leyland. And while Dr Beeching may have been appointed by a Tory govt., he did so because British Railways, a Labour creation, was hopelessly inefficient and badly managed.

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#18    questionmark

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 07 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

So going into the EU with the attitude they had was the reason for the UK's industrial decline, then? It couldn't have been anything to do with the postwar Labour govt.'s mania for nationalising everything in sight, and the consequent hopeless uncompetitiveness?

Most probably not as under EU rules they would have had to privatize most of it again, and the privatization is getting even more radical lately and tend to include enterprises that have been the privilege of the government for centuries (the Post comes to mind).

The nationalization wave was a first response to the fact that Britain was producing more than it could consume and that the traditional mass markets (i.e. India, China, Canada, Australia) where the exceeding went broke away with the Empire. Leyland was still producing great trucks (oops, lorries I should say), but the Canadians could buy GM trucks cheaper. Austin was still building good cars but it was cheaper to buy something else in Australia.

When those companies became not-viable, not because of the lack of quality but because of the lack of markets, the government decided to avoid mass layoffs (where we could have foreseen unemployment in the double digit numbers) by nationalizing the ailing companies. And that was worse than closing those factories as, once the government is in, all sound commercial practices get thrown overboard in favor of civil servant methods.

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#19    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 07 January 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

but that peolitical reading doesn't alter the fact that the products offered by state-owned industries in the 70s were famous for their hopelesness and their uncompetitiveness with those offered by Foreigners; you can't blame Maggie for British Leyland. And while Dr Beeching may have been appointed by a Tory govt., he did so because British Railways, a Labour creation, was hopelessly inefficient and badly managed.
British rail was an efficient and cost effective rail network - crippled by lack of investment in the infrastructure. Prices went through the ceiling after it was privatized and it took over a decade for services to significantly improve.  
The Bottom line is, that there were problems with British Industry which descended  into class warfare which ended with the Tories actively dismantling the industrial base in order to permanently break the Unions.
If both sides had have approached the situation with sense the problems could have been worked through - but bloody  mindedness and political ideology on both sides made that impossible. Tragic.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 07 January 2013 - 09:10 PM.

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#20    smurf0852

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostYamato, on 07 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Britain is not in the Eurozone.   I'm not sure what the basis is for "the train left the station" is because they're not even on the train.

Farage speaks eloquently about democracy and Greece in particular at 1:08 of the video above.  As members of the EU, Brits like Farage can get an audience about Eurozone problems while putting these immature and unelected European elites in their place.  The EU has no authority to determine monetary policy in the UK, and thank goodness for the UK once we listen to our share of Nigel Farage.
yes because british people hate unelected elites so much we have a head of state and a second house full of the idiots.
we have as a nation missed the boat on europe .the quicker we pull out let the people feel the pain it will cause then get back in the better .if you cant see the good our limited membership of europe has done visit any northern city that thatcher decimated .all the regeneration you see was done with european money.because our own politicians didnt give a **** .as for farage hitler spoke quite eloquently about a single issue on europe as well and we all know how that turned out.


#21    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:04 AM

View Postsmurf0852, on 08 January 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

yes because british people hate unelected elites so much we have a head of state and a second house full of the idiots.
we have as a nation missed the boat on europe .the quicker we pull out let the people feel the pain it will cause then get back in the better .if you cant see the good our limited membership of europe has done visit any northern city that thatcher decimated .all the regeneration you see was done with european money.because our own politicians didnt give a **** .as for farage hitler spoke quite eloquently about a single issue on europe as well and we all know how that turned out.
Would you be happy to be extorted by the EU to accept a multi-billion Euro bailout in order to save the Euro, then?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#22    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 08 January 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Would you be happy to be extorted by the EU to accept a multi-billion Euro bailout in order to save the Euro, then?

That question is rather academic since if the Euro goes it will drag the world into a recession and economic catastrophy which will make the Great Depression look like a picnic. The world currencies are all about confidence and confidence is trickling away. The Pound is little more than a basket case of debt liabilities with the single advantage (?) that it can still attempt to devalue its way out of trouble (with all the collateral damage that entails).

The question is - which **** heap offers the softest landing. Last time I looked, overall the Eurozone has stronger economic fundamentals than than Stirling.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 January 2013 - 09:26 AM.

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#23    Render

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

haha, silly Cameron. Trying to feed Euroskepticism to get some more votes but it's coming back to bite him in the ass.


#24    shaddow134

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostRender, on 08 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

haha, silly Cameron. Trying to feed Euroskepticism to get some more votes but it's coming back to bite him in the ass.
Why?If a referendum was held tomorrow,then the UK would be quitting the EEC.

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#25    questionmark

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 08 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why?If a referendum was held tomorrow,then the UK would be quitting the EEC.

his problem is he can't really afford to is Britain to remain relevant. While most Britons may be happy with a role like Iceland and Greenland, British politicians are certainly not.

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#26    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 07 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Why take some powers back from Europe?Why not just quit?

Have a referendum Mr Cameron and be done with it....

Leave the EU, deport the immigrants, execute the crims and he'd take 80% of parliment.


#27    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

To be honest, why should anyone care what a German newspaper thinks?

The only people Cameron should be listening to are the British people, not those who write Der Spiegel.

Polls shows that most British people are now Eurosceptic and want to leave the EU.  It is these people that Cameron should be listening to by giving us the EU in/out referendum that most of us wants.  He should take no notice of a Europhile foreign newspaper.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 08 January 2013 - 04:12 PM.


#28    questionmark

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:15 PM

View PostTheLastLazyGun, on 08 January 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

To be honest, why should anyone care what a German newspaper thinks?

The only people Cameron should be listening to are the British people, not those who write Der Spiegel.

Polls shows that most British people are now Eurosceptic and want to leave the EU.  It is these people that Cameron should be listening to by giving us the EU in/out referendum that most of us wants.  He should take no notice of a Europhile foreign newspaper.

Who tells you he does? Besides, were you to actually read the article instead of polemizing against the nationality of the author you might learn something.

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#29    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:16 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 07 January 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

It is more than that. With the EU money Britain could have kept being the industrial power it was until the 40s, it would have had the ready made markets to sell above its own requirements with free access. Yes,it would have come at the price of helping the other European nations to develop, but that just would have broadened the markets making more business.

That was not what Mrs. Thatcher had in mind for the future but she wanted Britain to go the dead end way of becoming a Services Economy. So she insisted on the rebate.The rest is known.

When Britain joined under Wilson the idea was to strengthen the country and compensate for the lost colonies. The Tories had a different idea.

Yet more tripe.

If anything has held the British economy back it is Brussels.

It was Brussels more than anything else which destroyed what was a very important part of the British economy - its fishing industry.  It vastly shrunk in size Britain's once-mighty fishing fleet, leaving it a shadow of its former self, putting thousands of men out fo work whilst, at the same time, it threw thousands of pounds of British taxpayers' money to countries like Ireland, France and Spain to enable them to build up their fishing fleets so that they can fish in BRITISH waters.


#30    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 08 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Who tells you he does? Besides, were you to actually read the article instead of polemizing against the nationality of the author you might learn something.

I don't care what the nationality of the author is.

The opinions of Der Spiegel or any other foreign enwspaper means nothing to me.

The fact is that most British people are eurosceptic.  The Spiegel may not like that but it's the truth.  Therefore Cameron should, right now, be giving us the EU in/out referendum which polls also show most British people want and give us the opportunity to vote to leave the EU.

The opinions of the Spiegel are unimportant.





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