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Talk Jesus in England


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In about two weeks, the General Synod of the Church of England will discuss polling results about English attitudes towards religion and Christianity. The large-scale poll (about 2500 of the general population, plus an additional sample focusing on 1500 active Christians) was funded jointly with two other Christian groups. Although this is "marketing driven" research, the information developed seems to be based on reasonable polling methodology.

There are a number of "headline findings" that have gotten recent press play ahead of the meeting. The slick booklet of results and the actual questionnaire can be downloaded for free from

http://www.talkingjesus.org/research/downloads.cfm

There are lots of "S v. S" issues in the poll outcome. One is the decline of Christianity in the motherland of our common tongue. Under 60% of the English polled self-identify as Christian, and under 10% are actively engaged in Christianity to the satisfaction of the pollsters (self-reported regular church-goers, Bible readers and prayers).

One reult that caught my eye is that better in one-in-five believe that Jesus is a mythological or fictional character. About 60% of the English think Jesus was a real person who really lived. IMO, this robust difference in views places the English street way ahead of go-along-to-get-along Biblical academia, which is nearly unanimous in favor of a real Jesus (just don't ask for details about anything he really did, or why he did such things, really).

Another issue, near to my own heart, is the clear distinction made between agnosticism (9%) and atheism (12%). England is the motherland of agnosticism, and so I am glad to see that my tribe is holding its own - indeed, we are as numerous as "practicing" Chrisitians. Woohoo! Pretty good for a non-religion that word-lawyers insist is non-at-all.

The focus of the poll is not to give heart to heathens, however, but rather how the Christian churches can get back into the game. The marketing initiative seems to be person-to-person evangelism: for Christians to talk up Jesus among friends, family and co-workers. The poll has some "glass half-full, glass half-empty" findings about that:

two-thirds of non-Christians know Christian(s), and generally seem to like the Christian(s) they know personally

apparently, many of the non-Christians have talked about Jesus with Christians, too

now for the half empty part: as a result of these conversations, a bit more than 40% of the non-Xs felt glad NOT to share the faith, and another 40% or so "don't know" their reaction, leaving fewer than one in five feeling "sad" not to share the faith.

Hmm, with results like that, maybe it'd be more effective to keep the faith to oneself. At least there's no mention of going out and knocking on strangers' doors.

Anyway, the poll seems discussable, and failing that, should interest some people, even outside of England.

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I haven't looked at the link yet, but my first thoughts are: 2,500 is a very small number of people to represent England; how 'English' were the 2,500? Was any criteria set for determining this?

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Guest Br Cornelius

I haven't looked at the link yet, but my first thoughts are: 2,500 is a very small number of people to represent England; how 'English' were the 2,500? Was any criteria set for determining this?

polls go to quite some trouble to make sure their sample is representative and that the numbers are adequate to draw conclusions. I would say that the poll is very representative of British opinion regarding Christianity. After all it is my experience that the British invented indifferent christianity (ie not one bit bothered beyond calling themselves such so they can get married in church).

Br Cornelius

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polls go to quite some trouble to make sure their sample is representative and that the numbers are adequate to draw conclusions. I would say that the poll is very representative of British opinion regarding Christianity. After all it is my experience that the British invented indifferent christianity (ie not one bit bothered beyond calling themselves such so they can get married in church).

Br Cornelius

We used to call them, 'Hatches, Matches and Dispatches' Christians. (Oh, and I've met a few 'Fox-hole' ones, too)

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Christianity is losing ground and this has been known for a while but I wonder about Islam and other religions. I have a feeling Islam is gaining which I don't see as a good thing.

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Christianity is losing ground and this has been known for a while but I wonder about Islam and other religions. I have a feeling Islam is gaining which I don't see as a good thing.

When a people reject God, he steps away. You can see the result in the turn to Islam in the UK. That isn't intended as an insult, just an observation.
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Guest Br Cornelius

The decline of Christianity is a matter of indifference. The rise of islam (such as it is) is a matter of demographics.

Ultimately secularism is winning the race.

Br Cornelius

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When a people reject God, he steps away.

How very mature! What a sulky baby!

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I've just looked at the original questionnaire and the conclusions resulting from it. A glaring omission seemed to be ...... no mention of God! No wonder He's miffed when not even the people who claim to believe in Him talk about Him. The focus is entirely on Jesus the Christ. Christians are warned in the Bible that their God is a jealous god! There's mention of a meeting in March this year of all the top bods in the various Christian Churches in England and luckily one of them at least spotted this obvious error.

But reading through the conclusions, the madness of Christianity was very apparent.

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ouija ouija

2500 is a reasonable sample size for opinion polling from any much larger population. The sample was "screened" to be proportional with overall national characteristics of age, gender, region of residence and socioeconomic condition.

That level of care does not capture all that is Englishness, but it is good quality work for survey research, IMO.

A glaring omission seemed to be ...... no mention of God!

I am not entirely sure that I follow. For the evangelicals and CoE sponsors, Jesus Christ is God (the very same God as in the OT, and so the jealous God). I had to look up HOPE (the third sponsor),

http://www.hopetogether.org.uk/

They are a fusion group, and there are Christian-heritage churches which do not teach that Jesus is God (Unitarians especially). I leave it to you to decide what that third sponsor's view on Jesus' divinity is:

http://christianity.org.uk/index.php/a/who-was-jesus.php

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I am not entirely sure that I follow. For the evangelicals and CoE sponsors, Jesus Christ is God (the very same God as in the OT, and so the jealous God).

The Father, Son & Holy Ghost triumvirate ..... the 'Son' aspect seems to be focussed on almost to the exclusion of the God and Holy Ghost aspects of the Old Testament(in these times, not just in the questionnaire), perhaps because they require too great a leap in faith, as opposed to a man who incarnated on Earth ..... like us.

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.

The focus of the poll is not to give heart to heathens, however, but rather how the Christian churches can get back into the game. The marketing initiative seems to be person-to-person evangelism: for Christians to talk up Jesus among friends, family and co-workers. The poll has some "glass half-full, glass half-empty" findings about that:

I knew it was a plot when I looked through the questions. They are working on a how to market Jesus primer with this.

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One reult that caught my eye is that better in one-in-five believe that Jesus is a mythological or fictional character. About 60% of the English think Jesus was a real person who really lived. IMO, this robust difference in views places the English street way ahead of go-along-to-get-along Biblical academia, which is nearly unanimous in favor of a real Jesus (just don't ask for details about anything he really did, or why he did such things, really)..

Surprised to see that a full-fifth of Brit's think that Jesus was fictional. I didn't think it was quite that widespread, but apparently so.

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Guest Br Cornelius

Surprised to see that a full-fifth of Brit's think that Jesus was fictional. I didn't think it was quite that widespread, but apparently so.

We're a progressive bunch.

Br Cornelius

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GmG

I knew it was a plot when I looked through the questions. They are working on a how to market Jesus primer with this.

Yes, they're fairly upfront about it.

Looking at the results they've released (and there are things I'd love to see the underlying data for), it isn't obvious why they don't try to get more out of the 48% who agree with them but aren't "practicing," rather than try to recruit non-Christians. About 3/4 of non-Christians, maybe more (depending on what "none of the above" meant) are not only "non-Christian," but something instead of Christian.

It may be a coincidence of numbers (hence the underlying data's interest), but 60% is both the proportion of the population who think there was a real Jesus and the proportion who identify themselves as Christian or Muslim (the major religions that teach a historical Jesus).

It could be that literally nobody in the sample believes in a historical Jesus except for those whose religious background insists he was real.

Not believing that Jesus really lived sounds to me like a major selling hurdle, especially when more than half of the doubters believe that Jesus was fictional or mythological instead of real. It's not as if there's some ironclad case to sway the uncommitteds, either.

Meanwhile, you've got nearly half the population who've bought the Kool-Aid, but they don't drink it as often as marketing would like. Sounds like a rich target audience to me, but then I don't buy or sell this stuff. What do I know?

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When a people reject God, he steps away. You can see the result in the turn to Islam in the UK. That isn't intended as an insult, just an observation.

Islam is growing in the UK mostly because of immigration.
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Looking at the results they've released (and there are things I'd love to see the underlying data for), it isn't obvious why they don't try to get more out of the 48% who agree with them but aren't "practicing," rather than try to recruit non-Christians. About 3/4 of non-Christians, maybe more (depending on what "none of the above" meant) are not only "non-Christian," but something instead of Christian.

It may be a coincidence of numbers (hence the underlying data's interest), but 60% is both the proportion of the population who think there was a real Jesus and the proportion who identify themselves as Christian or Muslim (the major religions that teach a historical Jesus).

It could be that literally nobody in the sample believes in a historical Jesus except for those whose religious background insists he was real.

There's an interesting footnote in the PDF version, on page 23:

More than two out of every five UK adults who are not practising Christians (43%) either do not believe Jesus was a real person who actually lived or they are unsure if he was real or not.

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In about two weeks, the General Synod of the Church of England will discuss polling results about English attitudes towards religion and Christianity. The large-scale poll (about 2500 of the general population, plus an additional sample focusing on 1500 active Christians) was funded jointly with two other Christian groups. Although this is "marketing driven" research, the information developed seems to be based on reasonable polling methodology.

There are a number of "headline findings" that have gotten recent press play ahead of the meeting. The slick booklet of results and the actual questionnaire can be downloaded for free from

http://www.talkingjesus.org/research/downloads.cfm

There are lots of "S v. S" issues in the poll outcome. One is the decline of Christianity in the motherland of our common tongue. Under 60% of the English polled self-identify as Christian, and under 10% are actively engaged in Christianity to the satisfaction of the pollsters (self-reported regular church-goers, Bible readers and prayers).

One reult that caught my eye is that better in one-in-five believe that Jesus is a mythological or fictional character. About 60% of the English think Jesus was a real person who really lived. IMO, this robust difference in views places the English street way ahead of go-along-to-get-along Biblical academia, which is nearly unanimous in favor of a real Jesus (just don't ask for details about anything he really did, or why he did such things, really).

Another issue, near to my own heart, is the clear distinction made between agnosticism (9%) and atheism (12%). England is the motherland of agnosticism, and so I am glad to see that my tribe is holding its own - indeed, we are as numerous as "practicing" Chrisitians. Woohoo! Pretty good for a non-religion that word-lawyers insist is non-at-all.

The focus of the poll is not to give heart to heathens, however, but rather how the Christian churches can get back into the game. The marketing initiative seems to be person-to-person evangelism: for Christians to talk up Jesus among friends, family and co-workers. The poll has some "glass half-full, glass half-empty" findings about that:

two-thirds of non-Christians know Christian(s), and generally seem to like the Christian(s) they know personally

apparently, many of the non-Christians have talked about Jesus with Christians, too

now for the half empty part: as a result of these conversations, a bit more than 40% of the non-Xs felt glad NOT to share the faith, and another 40% or so "don't know" their reaction, leaving fewer than one in five feeling "sad" not to share the faith.

Hmm, with results like that, maybe it'd be more effective to keep the faith to oneself. At least there's no mention of going out and knocking on strangers' doors.

Anyway, the poll seems discussable, and failing that, should interest some people, even outside of England.

For me, on the Christians getting back into the the game with bringing Jesus up in the conversation seems to be showing that the long standing tradition, that by their own poll is what is no longer fruitful.

I personally think that while there maybe the occasional convert, it is getting harder and harder to pull in the numbers, that perhaps as they say they have gotten all the cream out they can, and either they need an entire new strategy like the Catholics ( Vatican II ) not unlike a loose version of Spinoza and Judiasm that religions must roll with the times and are really made or broke based on societal leanings. In California, prop 8 and DOMA being overturned, for me, marked the descent of all things God, took the p*** out of the whole "God" as the ultimate authority figure,( unless one is just to invested to quit the fight, they are committed to the brand no matter what) it seems the Supreme Court really rules the day after all in the good ole US of A, geez religion might be going the way of astrology after all, time will tell-- I suppose. Just my two cents.

Edited by Sherapy
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The decline of Christianity is a matter of indifference. The rise of islam (such as it is) is a matter of demographics.

Ultimately secularism is winning the race.

Br Cornelius

I agree.
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How very mature! What a sulky baby!

You're welcome to your opinion. There's nothing immature about telling the truth. It's happening in the US as well. For once, BR and I almost completely agree. Britons have been becoming more secular for decades as have the French. Both countries are now becoming increasingly devout again - just not for the God of the bible. That indifference he speaks of is going to change at some point. Islam is not so easily ignored ;)
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Interesting that the study shows that casually talking about jesus isn't viewed positively by others. Or rather, not interesting, but it's good that there is data behind it. I don't imagine most people appreciate being preached at.

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You're welcome to your opinion. There's nothing immature about telling the truth. It's happening in the US as well. For once, BR and I almost completely agree. Britons have been becoming more secular for decades as have the French. Both countries are now becoming increasingly devout again - just not for the God of the bible. That indifference he speaks of is going to change at some point. Islam is not so easily ignored ;)

I think you've misunderstood. I was referring to GOD as an immature, sulky baby!

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Interesting that the study shows that casually talking about jesus isn't viewed positively by others. Or rather, not interesting, but it's good that there is data behind it. I don't imagine most people appreciate being preached at.

No, in my experience I'd agree.

Edited by Sherapy
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No, in my experience I'd agree.

Oh it's true - and I'd feel the same way if a Mormon, Muslim or Jehovah's Witness tried it on me. When I witness (as all Christians are commanded to do) I am subtle. I talk about current events or anything EXCEPT God. If the person wants to chat I eventually get around to mentioning what I believe about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I rarely have had anyone get angry or insulting. But the thing many - if not most - Christians forget is that we don't save anyone - the Holy Spirit is the one who calls them. We only bring Him to their attention :)
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When a people reject God, he steps away. You can see the result in the turn to Islam in the UK. That isn't intended as an insult, just an observation.

Really ? I am not religious but how about Deuteronomy 31:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”

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