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What is science really about?


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#1    pantodragon

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

The Faust legend is the truth about science: Faust sold his soul to the Devil for the sake of gaining all the knowledge in the world.  To be a scientist is to sell your soul to the Devil for the sake of knowledge.  This obviously requires a bit of explanation.

As a human being one is equipped with all sorts of senses that allow one to interact with the world, to ‘communicate’ with the world and everything in it.  The most obvious are the five senses that interact with the ‘real’ world: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.  These are the easy ones, the undeniable, obvious ones.  But there are far more, the subtle ones, the ones that see below the surface of things, detect that which is not ‘present’ to the basic five senses, and these are the feelings, intuition and what one might call ‘sensations’.

Take, for example, feelings.  Suppose one is talking to someone and one becomes angry but there is no apparent reason for the anger.  If one confesses to the anger one would be called grumpy, or classed as an angry person, as though it is all just a matter of personality.  But this is not so.  Anger happens for a reason.  If you get angry talking to someone it is because they are doing something bad to you, even though you cannot see what that is.

People can act a part, and that act can be very convincing, but you cannot fool the feelings.  So, someone might sound very pleasant, even charming, but they might well be trying to use their charm to manipulate others emotionally, to get attention, or to get them to do things for them.  This is where one’s feelings tell one that something is amiss, because your feeling detect INTENTION, they ‘see’ below the surface and sense what other people are REALLY about.

Then there is intuition.  Intuition is far more than just a ‘gut’ feeling.  Intuitions are the outcome of one’s subconscious ‘thinking’, the sophisticated type of thinking that is way beyond anything that computers can, or ever will, be able to do.  Intuition collects all one’s experiences, all one has learned from books or any other source, it listens to one’s ‘heart’ and collects the wisdom of dreams, it sees and understands what the feelings are saying, and from all that, in a flash, with a speed that would shame any computer, it tells one how to react in any situation; or it might deliver a flash of understanding or insight.  There is nothing more powerful than intuition.

Then there is one’s heart.  This is about the things one cares about and it is about likes and dislikes.  These are the things that make a person who they are.  They express one’s spirit.  There is an expression, ‘to become dispirited’, which means to lose interest in life, to lose motivation, to become depressed.  This is very accurate: if you do not pay heed to your spirit, do not nurture it, then you WILL lose interest in life.  And paying heed to your spirit means following your ‘heart’, in means allowing your own likes and dislikes, and your own special interest to lead you at all times.  That means that instead of following fashion, you develop your own tastes, whether it be in clothes, interior decoration, choice of interests or whatever.  You must ignore all advertising.  You must ignore all peer pressure.  You must listen only to your own heart.

If you ignore your heart then, apart from denying your own spirit, you also deny your own ‘destiny’.  Your destiny is about your dreams.  If as a child, or young person, you have a dream or ambition, (it can be anything, but it must come from the heart, so, e.g. dreaming of becoming a ‘star’ is not a ‘real’ dream, because it is not ‘from the heart’ – these sorts of ambitions are about competition and power, and have nothing to do with the heart.); so, if you have a dream, it is the ‘job’ of ‘fate’ to see to it that your dream comes true.  This means that fate has to plot a course through life that will give you all the experiences and learning opportunities that will enable you to achieve your dream.  If you follow your heart then you will actually be following the path fate has laid out for you, and you will finally realise your dreams.  If you do not follow your heart, then you will not achieve your dreams.

So, in the first place, there is a great deal more in the ‘world’ than scientific instruments can detect, and, in the second place, the ‘heartlessness’ of science denies the human spirit.  This is Faust: science will gain you knowledge, but in order to gain the knowledge of science you have to ignore your own heart and spirit, and that amounts to selling your soul.  But the legend goes further: it is to The Devil that Faust sells his soul.  This is because the source of all good is also in the heart and spirit.  It is the heart and spirit that tell you what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, and, what’s more, if you follow the heart and spirit, then there is no conflict with other people – you will never find that what is good for you is bad for someone else.  Existence is wonderfully designed such that THERE IS NO CONFLICT.   The problems we encounter, the conflicts of interest, arise because people do NOT listen to their hearts and spirits.  So to deny the heart and spirit is to lose touch with right and wrong.  It is to lose that which knows what is good, and that is why it was the Devil to whom Faust sold his soul.

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.


#2    Rlyeh

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

I fear if you sold your soul to the devil for knowledge, you'd have no where to put it.

Most of your argument is nothing more than denying the concept of research and study, replacing it with appeal to emotion.
Are you going to criticize mathematics for the same faults? What about engineering?


#3    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:16 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 28 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.
It has managed to provide us with a lot of stuff, I'll say that for it, and most of it I like having.


#4    FurthurBB

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:16 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 28 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

The Faust legend is the truth about science: Faust sold his soul to the Devil for the sake of gaining all the knowledge in the world.  To be a scientist is to sell your soul to the Devil for the sake of knowledge.  This obviously requires a bit of explanation.

As a human being one is equipped with all sorts of senses that allow one to interact with the world, to ‘communicate’ with the world and everything in it.  The most obvious are the five senses that interact with the ‘real’ world: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.  These are the easy ones, the undeniable, obvious ones.  But there are far more, the subtle ones, the ones that see below the surface of things, detect that which is not ‘present’ to the basic five senses, and these are the feelings, intuition and what one might call ‘sensations’.

Take, for example, feelings.  Suppose one is talking to someone and one becomes angry but there is no apparent reason for the anger.  If one confesses to the anger one would be called grumpy, or classed as an angry person, as though it is all just a matter of personality.  But this is not so.  Anger happens for a reason.  If you get angry talking to someone it is because they are doing something bad to you, even though you cannot see what that is.

People can act a part, and that act can be very convincing, but you cannot fool the feelings.  So, someone might sound very pleasant, even charming, but they might well be trying to use their charm to manipulate others emotionally, to get attention, or to get them to do things for them.  This is where one’s feelings tell one that something is amiss, because your feeling detect INTENTION, they ‘see’ below the surface and sense what other people are REALLY about.

Then there is intuition.  Intuition is far more than just a ‘gut’ feeling.  Intuitions are the outcome of one’s subconscious ‘thinking’, the sophisticated type of thinking that is way beyond anything that computers can, or ever will, be able to do.  Intuition collects all one’s experiences, all one has learned from books or any other source, it listens to one’s ‘heart’ and collects the wisdom of dreams, it sees and understands what the feelings are saying, and from all that, in a flash, with a speed that would shame any computer, it tells one how to react in any situation; or it might deliver a flash of understanding or insight.  There is nothing more powerful than intuition.

Then there is one’s heart.  This is about the things one cares about and it is about likes and dislikes.  These are the things that make a person who they are.  They express one’s spirit.  There is an expression, ‘to become dispirited’, which means to lose interest in life, to lose motivation, to become depressed.  This is very accurate: if you do not pay heed to your spirit, do not nurture it, then you WILL lose interest in life.  And paying heed to your spirit means following your ‘heart’, in means allowing your own likes and dislikes, and your own special interest to lead you at all times.  That means that instead of following fashion, you develop your own tastes, whether it be in clothes, interior decoration, choice of interests or whatever.  You must ignore all advertising.  You must ignore all peer pressure.  You must listen only to your own heart.

If you ignore your heart then, apart from denying your own spirit, you also deny your own ‘destiny’.  Your destiny is about your dreams.  If as a child, or young person, you have a dream or ambition, (it can be anything, but it must come from the heart, so, e.g. dreaming of becoming a ‘star’ is not a ‘real’ dream, because it is not ‘from the heart’ – these sorts of ambitions are about competition and power, and have nothing to do with the heart.); so, if you have a dream, it is the ‘job’ of ‘fate’ to see to it that your dream comes true.  This means that fate has to plot a course through life that will give you all the experiences and learning opportunities that will enable you to achieve your dream.  If you follow your heart then you will actually be following the path fate has laid out for you, and you will finally realise your dreams.  If you do not follow your heart, then you will not achieve your dreams.

So, in the first place, there is a great deal more in the ‘world’ than scientific instruments can detect, and, in the second place, the ‘heartlessness’ of science denies the human spirit.  This is Faust: science will gain you knowledge, but in order to gain the knowledge of science you have to ignore your own heart and spirit, and that amounts to selling your soul.  But the legend goes further: it is to The Devil that Faust sells his soul.  This is because the source of all good is also in the heart and spirit.  It is the heart and spirit that tell you what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, and, what’s more, if you follow the heart and spirit, then there is no conflict with other people – you will never find that what is good for you is bad for someone else.  Existence is wonderfully designed such that THERE IS NO CONFLICT.   The problems we encounter, the conflicts of interest, arise because people do NOT listen to their hearts and spirits.  So to deny the heart and spirit is to lose touch with right and wrong.  It is to lose that which knows what is good, and that is why it was the Devil to whom Faust sold his soul.

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.

This is nonsense piled on top of nonsense and has nothing whatsoever to do with science at all.

View PostRlyeh, on 28 February 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I fear if you sold your soul to the devil for knowledge, you'd have no where to put it.

Most of your argument is nothing more than denying the concept of research and study, replacing it with appeal to emotion.
Are you going to criticize mathematics for the same faults? What about engineering?

Wouldn't the OP have sold his soul to the devil when he bought a computer?


#5    StarMountainKid

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:28 PM

I think what the OP has said is true of the inner life of human beings, but science is about using the scientific method to discover the mechanics of the universe, which includes ourselves.

I think both can live in harmony.

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#6    Render

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:52 PM

Whatever.


#7    Emma_Acid

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:21 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 28 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

The Faust legend is the truth about science: Faust sold his soul to the Devil for the sake of gaining all the knowledge in the world.  To be a scientist is to sell your soul to the Devil for the sake of knowledge.  This obviously requires a bit of explanation.

As a human being one is equipped with all sorts of senses that allow one to interact with the world, to ‘communicate’ with the world and everything in it.  The most obvious are the five senses that interact with the ‘real’ world: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.  These are the easy ones, the undeniable, obvious ones.  But there are far more, the subtle ones, the ones that see below the surface of things, detect that which is not ‘present’ to the basic five senses, and these are the feelings, intuition and what one might call ‘sensations’.

Take, for example, feelings.  Suppose one is talking to someone and one becomes angry but there is no apparent reason for the anger.  If one confesses to the anger one would be called grumpy, or classed as an angry person, as though it is all just a matter of personality.  But this is not so.  Anger happens for a reason.  If you get angry talking to someone it is because they are doing something bad to you, even though you cannot see what that is.

People can act a part, and that act can be very convincing, but you cannot fool the feelings.  So, someone might sound very pleasant, even charming, but they might well be trying to use their charm to manipulate others emotionally, to get attention, or to get them to do things for them.  This is where one’s feelings tell one that something is amiss, because your feeling detect INTENTION, they ‘see’ below the surface and sense what other people are REALLY about.

Then there is intuition.  Intuition is far more than just a ‘gut’ feeling.  Intuitions are the outcome of one’s subconscious ‘thinking’, the sophisticated type of thinking that is way beyond anything that computers can, or ever will, be able to do.  Intuition collects all one’s experiences, all one has learned from books or any other source, it listens to one’s ‘heart’ and collects the wisdom of dreams, it sees and understands what the feelings are saying, and from all that, in a flash, with a speed that would shame any computer, it tells one how to react in any situation; or it might deliver a flash of understanding or insight.  There is nothing more powerful than intuition.

Then there is one’s heart.  This is about the things one cares about and it is about likes and dislikes.  These are the things that make a person who they are.  They express one’s spirit.  There is an expression, ‘to become dispirited’, which means to lose interest in life, to lose motivation, to become depressed.  This is very accurate: if you do not pay heed to your spirit, do not nurture it, then you WILL lose interest in life.  And paying heed to your spirit means following your ‘heart’, in means allowing your own likes and dislikes, and your own special interest to lead you at all times.  That means that instead of following fashion, you develop your own tastes, whether it be in clothes, interior decoration, choice of interests or whatever.  You must ignore all advertising.  You must ignore all peer pressure.  You must listen only to your own heart.

If you ignore your heart then, apart from denying your own spirit, you also deny your own ‘destiny’.  Your destiny is about your dreams.  If as a child, or young person, you have a dream or ambition, (it can be anything, but it must come from the heart, so, e.g. dreaming of becoming a ‘star’ is not a ‘real’ dream, because it is not ‘from the heart’ – these sorts of ambitions are about competition and power, and have nothing to do with the heart.); so, if you have a dream, it is the ‘job’ of ‘fate’ to see to it that your dream comes true.  This means that fate has to plot a course through life that will give you all the experiences and learning opportunities that will enable you to achieve your dream.  If you follow your heart then you will actually be following the path fate has laid out for you, and you will finally realise your dreams.  If you do not follow your heart, then you will not achieve your dreams.

So, in the first place, there is a great deal more in the ‘world’ than scientific instruments can detect, and, in the second place, the ‘heartlessness’ of science denies the human spirit.  This is Faust: science will gain you knowledge, but in order to gain the knowledge of science you have to ignore your own heart and spirit, and that amounts to selling your soul.  But the legend goes further: it is to The Devil that Faust sells his soul.  This is because the source of all good is also in the heart and spirit.  It is the heart and spirit that tell you what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, and, what’s more, if you follow the heart and spirit, then there is no conflict with other people – you will never find that what is good for you is bad for someone else.  Existence is wonderfully designed such that THERE IS NO CONFLICT.   The problems we encounter, the conflicts of interest, arise because people do NOT listen to their hearts and spirits.  So to deny the heart and spirit is to lose touch with right and wrong.  It is to lose that which knows what is good, and that is why it was the Devil to whom Faust sold his soul.

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.

One great big long "I don't like science because it doesn't give me the answers I want to hear" argument. We get them here all the time.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#8    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:37 PM

When I stick my head out onto the balcony and note water drops, I decide its going to rain.  That is doing science.


#9    pantodragon

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

To all:

Well, you obviously have understood nothing of what I have said.  I did not expect you to.  I know this is way beyond you.  Some of you are still struggling with science never mind something more sophisticated.  You've got your heads so far up the a**e of science that you can see no alternatives, never mind a sophisticated one like this.  Personanlly, if I have to put my hear up anybody's a**e, call me fussy, but I prefer it to be my own!

However politely I have expressed myself, (and I take my cue from the tone of the comments above) it does rather put in a nutshell what I am about.  Every human being has the capability, or can develop the capability (for some the development will take longer than others) to think for themselves, to use their own minds to sense and find out what the world is about.  No one needs to rely on some other authority to tell them the nature of existence, or anything else for that matter.  Those who are officionados of science are merely succumbing to the power games of those who use science to exercise power over you --- that is why science is designed the way it is: it is designed precisely to give some people control over others.


#10    Rlyeh

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:54 PM

I understand you, however in doing so it is clear you haven't got a clue what science is. Science is designed to analyse evidence and form explanations. Your reply shows again you do not grasp the concept of research.

If you think science is about thinking for other people, you're doing it wrong (both the thinking and the science).


#11    Frank Merton

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:04 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

To all:

Well, you obviously have understood nothing of what I have said.  I did not expect you to.  I know this is way beyond you.
You have to understand that that comes across as unbelievably arrogant.  Worse, it implies that you think you have sources of inner knowledge and understanding that others lack.  

Generally, when you aren't understood, look to yourself first.  It may be that you have insights your fellows lack: so, then, teach them -- don't just give them a lecture about how dense they are.  More likely, though, your insights are not as important or profound as you imagine.

Quote


However politely I have expressed myself, (and I take my cue from the tone of the comments above) it does rather put in a nutshell what I am about.  Every human being has the capability, or can develop the capability (for some the development will take longer than others) to think for themselves, to use their own minds to sense and find out what the world is about.  No one needs to rely on some other authority to tell them the nature of existence, or anything else for that matter.  Those who are officionados of science are merely succumbing to the power games of those who use science to exercise power over you --- that is why science is designed the way it is: it is designed precisely to give some people control over others.
You do seem to dismiss science (and I agree with the others that you seem to have no real notion of what "science" is) simply because it doesn't give you the answers you want.  Science mainly gives us material things -- better and more food, better fabrics, the ability to tour the world and get information from everywhere, and so on and on.  It is very little about power.  Far more about power are religion and politics and business.


#12    Render

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:55 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

To all:

Well, you obviously have understood nothing of what I have said.  I did not expect you to.  I know this is way beyond you.  Some of you are still struggling with science never mind something more sophisticated.  You've got your heads so far up the a**e of science that you can see no alternatives, never mind a sophisticated one like this.  Personanlly, if I have to put my hear up anybody's a**e, call me fussy, but I prefer it to be my own!

However politely I have expressed myself, (and I take my cue from the tone of the comments above) it does rather put in a nutshell what I am about.  Every human being has the capability, or can develop the capability (for some the development will take longer than others) to think for themselves, to use their own minds to sense and find out what the world is about.  No one needs to rely on some other authority to tell them the nature of existence, or anything else for that matter.  Those who are officionados of science are merely succumbing to the power games of those who use science to exercise power over you --- that is why science is designed the way it is: it is designed precisely to give some people control over others.

To you:

LMAO

Sounds like this person who goes to AA and tries to talk herself out of it by making up an extremely lengthy explanation of why they ended up there. And then everyone calls you on your bs. And then you go : well nononoono, it's the entire world that doesn't understand ME.

Science doesn't attempt to explain why we live, it researches the how. You gotta understand that philosophy and science are different fields.
It's scientists that usually understand this, but it;s ppl like you who demonize science, who doesn't understand the difference.


#13    pantodragon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:25 PM

To all:

As it happens, I was a successful physicist.  My experience taught me the limitations of science (and philosophy can be included).  Therefore I sought something better and I found it, therefore, also yes, I have insight and understanding beyond any of you.

A little puzzle: just suppose I'm telling the truth.  How could you know?  Is it my duty to persuade you of my authenticity?  Can I persuade you of my authenticity if I have moved on to places you have not yet reached?  Should I pretend that I still adhere to the old dispensations?  Or should I be able to talk my talk, leaving the way open for any who wish to follow?  Suppose that among the things I have discovered is that the best way to communicate one's advances is to "show, not tell" --- just like adults continue to talk in adult language when children are around so children learn to talk like adults?


#14    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:37 PM

I generally take what others tell me about themselves at face value, but keep in mind the other possibilities.  As a result, if someone gives me medical advice because they claim to be a doctor, well, I will check with my own doctor.


#15    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:02 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 04 March 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

To all:

As it happens, I was a successful physicist.  My experience taught me the limitations of science (and philosophy can be included).  Therefore I sought something better and I found it, therefore, also yes, I have insight and understanding beyond any of you.

A little puzzle: just suppose I'm telling the truth.  How could you know?  Is it my duty to persuade you of my authenticity?  Can I persuade you of my authenticity if I have moved on to places you have not yet reached?  Should I pretend that I still adhere to the old dispensations?  Or should I be able to talk my talk, leaving the way open for any who wish to follow?  Suppose that among the things I have discovered is that the best way to communicate one's advances is to "show, not tell" --- just like adults continue to talk in adult language when children are around so children learn to talk like adults?

I'm curious to find out what area of physics you were successful in. And why you are not one now.





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