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Iranian police clash with protesters


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#16    and then

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 03 October 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

Seems to me sanctions are starting to bite,well done to Obama for not jumping the Gun and one in the eye for Netanyahu....
Yes, the sanctions are crushing and grinding the poor and working class.  It hasn't had any noticeable effect on the enrichment according to the IAEA.  The centrifuges keep spinning day and night.  If anything the intransigence of the regime has been intensified.  They firmly believe the world is going to allow them to have their "electric capability".  An interesting new development - a member of the Majlis has said that if the West doesn't drop the sanctions then they will start enriching to 60% in preparation for their non existent nuclear subs and ships they plan to someday build.  So they just keep laughing at the world and the world keeps right on snoozing.

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#17    and then

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostHasina, on 03 October 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Alright, I understand the sanctions, but is there proof that they are actually going into the business of producing nuclear warheads? Simple yes or no and some evidence to back it up. Anyway, don't the Israeli's have nukes? Iran's just as vulnerable as they are.

View PostHasina, on 03 October 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Alright, I understand the sanctions, but is there proof that they are actually going into the business of producing nuclear warheads? Simple yes or no and some evidence to back it up. Anyway, don't the Israeli's have nukes? Iran's just as vulnerable as they are.
They have had many years to perfect a design.  The key problems have been fuel - hence the race to enrich uranium, and delivery systems.  The last is the most difficult because a warhead has to be miniaturized.  The point made is that such work can literally be done in some neighborhood anywhere in the country.  The military base where it is believed explosive tests of triggers for a bomb were conducted has been kept off limits, partially demolished with fresh dirt being brought in AND covered with an elaborate system of tarps/shields to keep satellites from snooping.  As Netanyahu said - The enrichment sites are the only targets that can slow or delay their bomb.

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#18    Hasina

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:06 PM

So it's all mostly postulations? That because they 'had the time' they must've done it? Now I'm taking no sides, I just prefer to know everything before we decide that attacking a sovereign nation who, if they really are doing it for peaceful means, should have the right to look into nuclear research for energy.

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#19    OverSword

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostHasina, on 03 October 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Alright, I understand the sanctions, but is there proof that they are actually going into the business of producing nuclear warheads? Simple yes or no and some evidence to back it up.
He can't.  He ingnored the post I made of the head of the CIA not long ago stating there is no proof they are pursuing a nuclear weapon.
http://www.nytimes.c...ild-a-bomb.html

Recent assessments by American spy agencies are broadly consistent with a 2007 intelligence finding that concluded that Iran had abandoned its nuclear weapons program years earlier, according to current and former American officials. The officials said that assessment was largely reaffirmed in a 2010 National Intelligence Estimate, and that it remains the consensus view of America’s 16 intelligence agencies.

But nevermind that THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

Edited by OverSword, 03 October 2012 - 09:15 PM.


#20    and then

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:37 PM

View PostOverSword, on 03 October 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

He can't.  He ingnored the post I made of the head of the CIA not long ago stating there is no proof they are pursuing a nuclear weapon.
http://www.nytimes.c...ild-a-bomb.html

Recent assessments by American spy agencies are broadly consistent with a 2007 intelligence finding that concluded that Iran had abandoned its nuclear weapons program years earlier, according to current and former American officials. The officials said that assessment was largely reaffirmed in a 2010 National Intelligence Estimate, and that it remains the consensus view of America’s 16 intelligence agencies.

But nevermind that THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!
There really is no need to be either condescending or insulting.  We have a different outlook on this issue and maybe it will be decided soon.  Frankly, I wish you were right.  But I think it's irrational to believe that the government of a country of 80 million people with tremendous oil wealth would risk pariah status over the ability to generate electricity.  Maybe you should consider that - if your mind is still open enough.

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#21    Hasina

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:43 PM

http://hjoshaghani.b...ce-consume.html

Seems that Iran exports more then it consumes. If you've got something everyone wants, why consume it when you could sell all of it? Nuclear energy would free them from a lot of oil consumption and free up more of it to sell.

http://en.wikipedia...._petrochemicals

Edited by Hasina, 03 October 2012 - 09:46 PM.

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#22    and then

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostHasina, on 03 October 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

http://hjoshaghani.b...ce-consume.html

Seems that Iran exports more then it consumes. If you've got something everyone wants, why consume it when you could sell all of it? Nuclear energy would free them from a lot of oil consumption and free up more of it to sell.

http://en.wikipedia...._petrochemicals
If their rhetoric and actions over the past 3 decades had been different then I might agree with such an assessment.  They have proven themselves to be aggressive in the extreme.  The fact that they use terror proxies to do their killing does not keep the blood off their hands.  I believe the world will be complicit in allowing them their bomb. I mean, it's only Israel they want to destroy, right?  But when it happens the world will pay as well.

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#23    Hasina

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

View Postand then, on 03 October 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

If their rhetoric and actions over the past 3 decades had been different then I might agree with such an assessment.  They have proven themselves to be aggressive in the extreme.  The fact that they use terror proxies to do their killing does not keep the blood off their hands.  I believe the world will be complicit in allowing them their bomb. I mean, it's only Israel they want to destroy, right?  But when it happens the world will pay as well.
Much like when Pakistan and India were totes gonna destroy each other?

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#24    OverSword

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:11 PM

View Postand then, on 03 October 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

There really is no need to be either condescending or insulting.  We have a different outlook on this issue and maybe it will be decided soon.  Frankly, I wish you were right.  But I think it's irrational to believe that the government of a country of 80 million people with tremendous oil wealth would risk pariah status over the ability to generate electricity.  Maybe you should consider that - if your mind is still open enough.
You know.  I had 3 good paragraphs of relevant facts linked to sources to try to persuade you that you're looking at this the wrong way.  Then I deleted the whole thing and posted this instead.

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#25    OverSword

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:14 PM

View Postand then, on 03 October 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

If their rhetoric and actions over the past 3 decades had been different then I might agree with such an assessment.  They have proven themselves to be aggressive in the extreme.  The fact that they use terror proxies to do their killing does not keep the blood off their hands.  I believe the world will be complicit in allowing them their bomb. I mean, it's only Israel they want to destroy, right?  But when it happens the world will pay as well.
But this I can't stand.  Are you comparing that to the many assasinations of scientists perpetratd by us and Israel? No. Proven themselves to be aggressive in the extreme??????  You say this based on what? How many countries they have forces deployed in?  Name the last time Iran invaded a soveriegn nation.

Edited by OverSword, 03 October 2012 - 10:14 PM.


#26    and then

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostOverSword, on 03 October 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

But this I can't stand.  Are you comparing that to the many assasinations of scientists perpetratd by us and Israel? No. Proven themselves to be aggressive in the extreme??????  You say this based on what? How many countries they have forces deployed in?  Name the last time Iran invaded a soveriegn nation.
So now we get to the nut of it.  This thread, as far as I know, isn't about America.  It's about the mess in Iran.  As I've said, if you support their right to a bomb then that is your right but please don't be wishy washy about it.  Take a stand.  By your logic here the US had no one to respond to after 9-11 and should have just sat and done nothing.  That is not the way the world works, friend.  Show weakness to wild animals and they become emboldened.

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#27    Stellar

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:51 PM

Quote

So they just keep laughing at the world and the world keeps right on snoozing.


Maybe the world isnt snoozing... Maybe they just don't foresee inaction resulting in worldwide war and destruction like you keep claiming.

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#28    MichaelW

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:09 AM

Good news. Perhaps then, there might be a real change in Iran soon.

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#29    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostStellar, on 03 October 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

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Maybe the world isnt snoozing... Maybe they just don't foresee inaction resulting in worldwide war and destruction like you keep claiming.
Kind of like they did in the 1930's ?  No, I think the leaders know it's coming, they just are too sheep like to try and stop it from being worse.  I pray every day that it will not come or that if it comes it can be contained.  I'm pessimistic by nature where human nature is concerned though.  Too many examples in history not to be......

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#30    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:54 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 04 October 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Good news. Perhaps then, there might be a real change in Iran soon.
If the people were to rise up all over the country and be willing to sacrifice their blood the way Syrians are doing then yes, a change could happen.  They haven't shown a desire to do that yet.  Who knows what might have happened if president Obama would have openly supported the protests in '09 ?  The protests might have been crushed anyway (probably) but at least the point would have been made.  Another problem is that the Iranian people are fiercely proud and nationalistic and support the idea of becoming a nuclear power and equals at the world table.  So even if they hate the religious leaders they still love their country.

Edited by and then, 04 October 2012 - 12:55 AM.

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