64 replies to this topic

[The Mule]

well no....I dont beleive in gods....

[dlonewolf85]

Mr Walker, on 01 September 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

OK so , in your opinion, you cannot know. What do you choose to BELIEVE? Do you believe you have free will ? Do you believe somethng we call a god would have free will. Does it make a material difference what you (or others) believe?
In other words, can believing in free will cause people to create quite different outcomes in their world,  from  what would occur, from them NOT believing in free will?

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I said I think nobody can concretely answer as to whether there is a free-will or a predestiny that can be associated with the concept of anything at all without knowing as to why it exists in the first place, if it does in fact exist. Without knowing as to why something called a god may or may not exist, no one can say for sure if that entity does have a free will or not.

As for your question, I believe that I do exist, and I know that I have a choice in most of the things that can happen in my life, and that the rest depends on the conditions and the environment. It doesn't matter whether I believe in a free-will or not, I know I always have the option to decide certain things and that somethings are beyond my control. Having a belief or not is very different from knowing for sure, right? And a choice can only exist if there is a purpose. If I want a certain outcome or I know of a particular event to take place at some point in the future, only then I can think of how I should act upon it or as to whether I even have a choice in that matter and to what extent, and also about what other factors could have a role in it. Without the knowledge of a consequence or an undeniable purpose or an inevitable event, the question of a choice or a destiny does not arise.

Edited by dlonewolf85, 01 September 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Mr Walker]

The Mule, on 01 September 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

well no....I dont beleive in gods....

Ok but you believe that himans have free will, and cannot escape responsibilty for their choices and actions? If you were asked to design/construct a god, would you build free will into your  design/ construct ? Why /why not?

Edited by Mr Walker, 01 September 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Mr Walker]

dlonewolf85, on 01 September 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I said I think nobody can concretely answer as to whether there is a free-will or a predestiny that can be associated with the concept of anything at all without knowing as to why it exists in the first place, if it does in fact exist. Without knowing as to why something called a god may or may not exist, no one can say for sure if that entity does have a free will or not.

As for your question, I believe that I do exist, and I know that I have a choice in most of the things that can happen in my life, and that the rest depends on the conditions and the environment. It doesn't matter whether I believe in a free-will or not, I know I always have the option to decide certain things and that somethings are beyond my control. Having a belief or not is very different from knowing for sure, right? And a choice can only exist if there is a purpose. If I want a certain outcome or I know of a particular event to take place at some point in the future, only then I can think of how I should act upon it or as to whether I even have a choice in that matter and to what extent, and also about what other factors could have a role in it. Without the knowledge of a consequence or an undeniable purpose or an inevitable event, the question of a choice or a destiny does not arise.

I didnt misunderstand. At least i dont think i did.   I accepted your statement  that you  do not think  that you can know.

However in areas where we lack knowledge we can construct belief. I thus asked what you believed. The rest of your response is an excellent answer, IMHO, because it tends to agree with my own position.

Being aware of consequence confers responsibilty for our choice of actions and their consequences. That is true whether we have true free will or not. Acknowledgement of this creates a "mental feedback" on our thought processes,  which can take several forms, including pride or guilt, and thus reinforce our choices of behaviour.

Denial of all accountabilty /responsibility frees us from guilt but denies us any pride in our achievements, and creates a completely different world view/mindset. IMO this is one reason why acknowledgement of free will, whether it actually exists or not, is important.

On a second reading i disagree, in part, with what you say. We are creatures of both imagination and logic. Thus we can not only logically extrapolate consequence and future outcomes; we can imagine and creatively construct  ones we would like to work towards, and ones we would seek to avoid. One doesn't require knowledge of a future, in order to create and shape a desired future. Imagination and creativity can "make" or construct the template/vision  which we  then physically strive to bring to reality..
A dream can be the basis for a life's work, and end up completely reshaping the world.

Edited by Mr Walker, 01 September 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[dlonewolf85]

I agree to what you said about the existence of free-will in humans even when his entire life can seem to revolve around some dreams. Yes, almost always, we do have a choice in working towards shaping the future, even though we may not be sure as to whether or not, we would even live to see the next day - a choice that is merely based on a belief.

But let's go back to the original question as to whether god has a free will or not. The concept of a god is not a concrete one, right? God can be said to be a construct of man's imagination based on his perception of a hypothetically ideological world, which was created and is preserved by a loving fatherly figure, who judges the wrong doings and rewards all the goodness that exists in man. Now, can there be a concrete answer as to whether or not such an entity has a free-will or if his actions are predetermined? I guess, all we can do is choose to believe or not to, anything based on our wishful imagination and from the lessons that we learn in our lives, but there is no way of ever knowing it for real. Wouldn't you agree?

Also, thank you for your views. Even as an atheist, I found this thread to be very interesting and also a food for thought. Take care, man!

[persius]

well yeah,according to ancient Hindu teachings,there is one particular teaching called  EKAM SAT that means god is one ad only one but we know him by many names,and yes god has free will because
in Bhagavad Gita it is stated Humans are subjected to rules of nature but the supreme being is above all this and therefore has free will


welcome and my GOD bless you

Edited by persius, 01 September 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[dlonewolf85]

persius, on 01 September 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

yes god has free will because in Bhagavad Gita it is stated Humans are subjected to rules of nature but the supreme being is above all this and therefore has free will
welcome and my GOD bless you

I am sorry, but that doesn't make any sense...

[rimbaudelaire]

Mr Walker, on 01 September 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Does the christian /jewish/ muslim god, in particular, have free will?

Do entities labelled god(s), in general, have free will?

Any opinions appreciated, but rationales/reasons for your opinions would be particularly interesting.

You dont have to believe in the existence of a god or gods to answer this.

It is a theological/philosophical/cosmological  question,  which goes to the potential nature of god(s),

imagined, constructed or real.

I think it would be helpful if you provided your definition of Free Will.

[JGirl]

Mr Walker, on 01 September 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Do you consider god to be sapient and self aware? Can a god alter the universe through the application of thought, intent and /or technology? Do you think a god is aware of the consequences of its actions? Does a god form intent, and act on that  intent ? Or is your construct of god basically of an immaterial and non conscious entity? Or are you saying that god must have free will, while mortal humans  may not?

The relevance of the question is in eliciting thoughts and opinions from people on the nature of god as they see it /him

no i don't believe god is self aware. self is ego and god is not a person, as i said earlier, so therefore god does not have ego so therefore 'self' awareness is irrelevent too.
i believe god is an all conscious entity  although entity is not the word i would use. and no i am not saying god must have free will;. as you must have read in my original post i said god cannot possibly have free will because that is a mortal concept.

[Mr Walker]

dlonewolf85, on 01 September 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

I agree to what you said about the existence of free-will in humans even when his entire life can seem to revolve around some dreams. Yes, almost always, we do have a choice in working towards shaping the future, even though we may not be sure as to whether or not, we would even live to see the next day - a choice that is merely based on a belief.

But let's go back to the original question as to whether god has a free will or not. The concept of a god is not a concrete one, right? God can be said to be a construct of man's imagination based on his perception of a hypothetically ideological world, which was created and is preserved by a loving fatherly figure, who judges the wrong doings and rewards all the goodness that exists in man. Now, can there be a concrete answer as to whether or not such an entity has a free-will or if his actions are predetermined? I guess, all we can do is choose to believe or not to, anything based on our wishful imagination and from the lessons that we learn in our lives, but there is no way of ever knowing it for real. Wouldn't you agree?

Also, thank you for your views. Even as an atheist, I found this thread to be very interesting and also a food for thought. Take care, man!

Gods can be, and are, many things, IMO. That's why i phrased the question as I did  An atheist could phrase a hypothetical/ philosophical response. Those who see god as anthromorphic could phrase a different response etc. My main interest was philosophical, on how people see the nature of gods. But certainly, one's perception of the form and function of gods will shape their response.

The question just struck me while reading posts about god's nature . Creative or destructive? Whatever gods are,  do they know what they are doing and the consequences of their own choices? In a sense, are gods choices as likely to produce outcomes uncertain as our own.  Does a god need to prepare a plan B and C in case plan A doesnt come off as the god hopes it will? If a god knows all the future consequences of its actions, can/does it have free will?
ie do they form an intent around  rational purpose for their own ends? And if so, do/can they have free will, or are their own choices and actions limited by predestination?  How does such free will compare to a humans, and  to non- self aware living things?

[Mr Walker]

persius, on 01 September 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

well yeah,according to ancient Hindu teachings,there is one particular teaching called  EKAM SAT that means god is one ad only one but we know him by many names,and yes god has free will because
in Bhagavad Gita it is stated Humans are subjected to rules of nature but the supreme being is above all this and therefore has free will


welcome and my GOD bless you

In a sense this is also a form of christian theology held by some. God is, to them, all knowing and all powerful, thus allowing god to have free will. For  some such people humans may not have free will because it conflicts with gods ability to know the future. Others find a logical escape route from this dichotomy.
In my experience, god is not all powerful and all knowing Because god is a real physicla entity it is limited by the realities of all  living things. It/ he can predict the future with some accuracy, but never know it for certain.  On the evidence of writing such as the bible stories and and personal experience, God works actively to shape the future, often using human agencies. There would be no need for this if one future was predetermined.
Thank you for the blessing.

Edited by Mr Walker, 01 September 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[shadowhive]

Mr Walker, on 01 September 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Does the christian /jewish/ muslim god, in particular, have free will?

I don't think that god does, mostly because such an entity seems trapped by the rules of its own game.

Quote

Do entities labelled god(s), in general, have free will?

Assuming such an entity exists, I'd expect it would have free will.

Personally, I'm not fully convinced there is a god of any kind. I am fairly certain, though, that if a god existed it wouldn't have been behind any religion (all of which are obvious man made creations) and I seriously question why such an entity would have any interest in us at all, let alone acknowledge our existance.

To me a god caring about us makes as much sense as a gardening showing interest in a colony of microbes in a few grains of soil in their garden.

Edited by shadowhive, 01 September 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[Mr Walker]

rimbaudelaire, on 01 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I think it would be helpful if you provided your definition of Free Will.

To me free will is simple and clear. Can a n entity form a choice of action without concrete let or hindrance? In other words is there any physical obstruction preventing a human mind from imagining ANY choice of action? I can find none.

Second, is there any physical mechanism which prevents a human trying to act on any thought they have? Again I can find none. Knowedge of consequence is a cautionary/informing force not one which physically prevents action. Death as a consquence of an action comes too late to prevent the exercise of either forming an intent or carring it out.  So there are no physical limitations on human free will.

The wider illusion of predestination as an aspect of cause and effect, is an illusion based on human perspective and our  current positioning in a linear time line; between a concrete past  which we assume was the only possible past time line, and a future which is yet to be formed and created. We judge the future as we see the past but they are differnt entities Our past was once our future As a future it was changable and alterable Only past things are unchangeable There is no definitive connection between a past nano second of time and a future one.  But that is a wider argument .
While a god might be able to compute many alternate futures, it cannot know them, especially when they involve sapient self aware beings who can imagine and create. Thus, gods need to work to achieve their desired outcomes, just as we do They just have more data and a better computing capacity.

Many things are not connected to free will. If i am killed by a volcano erupting suddenly under my house, no will is involved. Free will is a component of our self aware sapience. It exists within our own choices. We dont have a choice about being born or   about the free willed intent of another. Eg i cant prevent someone who wants to, from trying to walking into my home and shooting me,  but we always have choices about how we think and act In any scenario. How i respond when that intruder enters; how i decide and act, will alter the outcome as much as it can

Those choices are virtually unliimited. Only our failure to recognise and act on this knowledge restricts our choices. But that does not deny free will. It exists even if we do not fully utilise it. just as a person who refuses to speak is still capable of speech.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 September 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Hasina]

Well, I just caught Arceus, the god of Pokemon, so I say no, cause I control him!

[Mr Walker]

shadowhive, on 01 September 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

I don't think that god does, mostly because such an entity seems trapped by the rules of its own game.



Assuming such an entity exists, I'd expect it would have free will.

Personally, I'm not fully convinced there is a god of any kind. I am fairly certain, though, that if a god existed it wouldn't have been behind any religion (all of which are obvious man made creations) and I seriously question why such an entity would have any interest in us at all, let alone acknowledge our existance.

To me a god caring about us makes as much sense as a gardening showing interest in a colony of microbes in a few grains of soil in their garden.

As to the first I agree.

As to the second if you were a space faring sapient being, several millenia more evolved than we are and came across a  race of about cromagnon evolutionary level How would YOU deal with them? Mpre to the point how would THEY perceive you and your technologies abilities Sapient beings are curious imaginative and creative. They like to comunicate. They have a capacity and even a tendency to care for other entities, especially other self aware entities.  The ability to communicate is a part of what made them self aware and sapient .
Would you care about such beings, and if you did care,   would you chose to leave them alone and  make their own mistakes, or would you intervene, as much as you could, to educate and to guide the race. Given that you are NOT omnisicient and omnipotent,  but seem so to such a peoples, how would you deal with them, and how could you stop them seeing you as gods? Or perhaps, if it motivated them more emotionally and viscerally, would you actually encourage such a belief, in order to help their social evolution and help them become more constructive, less destructive, peoples What if you knew that a common religion could reduce conflict, and create social cohesion, speeding up the growth of civilization and human development?