132 replies to this topic

[Etu Malku]

libstaK, on 20 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

That just makes the below quote of yours the mother of all hair splitting commentary.

"See, believing in a non-corporeal entity such as Lilith or Yahweh for that matter, to be an actual physical thing is not what I'm talking about."

If the energy has a physical impact then it is a physical thing, if it can be "measured" whether by science or the extrapolating of results in the physical plain by your mind it is a "thing".  Just as those who have had experience of God the non-corporeal being believe that they have "measured" the effects of his existence as a physical experience has given them cause to believe in his existence.

Energy has already been measured and explained/defined. Yahweh on the other hand has never been measured.

But I see what you are getting at and I'll attempt to explain . . .

Archetypes such as gods, angels, demons, & devils are extremely powerful Thoughtforms, they are beyond egregores and have become what Chaotes refer to as Godforms.
They are memes of the highest order and although created and developed by Man, they are very independent and contain the energies of everyone that continue to empower them.
This makes these types of archetypes very desirable for the ritualist.
It also helps define the concept behind Predatory Spiritualism.

Edited by Etu Malku, 20 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[libstaK]

Etu Malku, on 20 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Energy has already been measured and explained/defined. Yahweh on the other hand has never been measured.

I'll repeat your quote again, as you seem to be playing both sides of the "energy" argument and you really can't have it both ways.

"See, believing in a non-corporeal entity such as Lilith or Yahweh for that matter, to be an actual physical thing is not what I'm talking about."

Energy has been measured scientifically and explained - I'll give you this is true of particular materially measurable forms of energy.

The energy of an "non-corporeal entity such as Lillith or Yahweh for that matter ( notice you included Yahweh here) have BOTH never been measured and explained by science.

If I'm wrong about that, please point me to the scientific paper that has measured and explained the non-corporeal demons you summon from the sub-conscious to the conscious in your rituals ... and given them names and archetypical personas.

Also, the behaviour of those engaged in summoning via ritual of a non-corporeal entity and praying to a non-corporeal entity is, in substance, the same (the reasons for doing so, are fundamentally different, although people pray for bad things as much as good in this world thinking they are right to do so, I'll give that).

One group believes in the 'non-corporeal beings of God/Allah/Yahweh etc and the Angels, Holy Ghost, Jesus and pray to said entities supplicating them to fill their bodies and minds to be "filled with the holy spirit" or the word of God or the Healing Power of God/Jesus et al.  This group then speaks absolutely lucidly of their experience as being entirely real and measurable - the evidence is within their own "spirit", they would say it is absolute and true that these things have occurred - no science has ever breached this and proven it independently as fact either way.

Another group practices "rituals" to summon and command "non-corporeal" entities and leeches their energy with deliberation to use in magickal tools and will claim to sense and know they have this specific "archetypical" energy and it is now at their disposal to use - no science has ever breached this and proven it independently as fact either way.

Yet you disparage the beliefs of others and at the same time "speak with weight" about your own as though they are unimpeachable.

It is interesting that you do not see the oddity of this existential position in thought, as you do claim to see the energies that arise from the sub-conscious into the conscious quite clearly and can even cyphen them from others as you find them "without permission" even if you want them.

Could you possibly believe you see much more, or something utterly different than a full enquiry would find is actually there when you make these claims?  Just wondering if that had occurred to you at any time.

Edited by libstaK, 20 November 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Etu Malku]

libstaK, on 20 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'll repeat your quote again, as you seem to be playing both sides of the "energy" argument and you really can't have it both ways.

"See, believing in a non-corporeal entity such as Lilith or Yahweh for that matter, to be an actual physical thing is not what I'm talking about."

Energy has been measured scientifically and explained - I'll give you this is true of particular materially measurable forms of energy.

The energy of an "non-corporeal entity such as Lillith or Yahweh for that matter ( notice you included Yahweh here) have BOTH never been measured and explained by science.

And if science is the end all explanation that you need to justify everything in the universe then we can stop right here, as science is incapable of measuring anything of our subjective universe.

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If I'm wrong about that, please point me to the scientific paper that has measured and explained the non-corporeal demons you summon from the sub-conscious to the conscious in your rituals ... and given them names and archetypical personas.

Again with the science? Scholarly studies of all types are equally important to me as are physical scientific studies. A cursory look into Tantric practices will help you understand energy as it has been understood for millenium.

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Also, the behaviour of those engaged in summoning via ritual of a non-corporeal entity and praying to a non-corporeal entity is, in substance, the same (the reasons for doing so, are fundamentally different, although people pray for bad things as much as good in this world thinking they are right to do so, I'll give that).

I'm not an advocate of prayer and see summoning and prayer as two entirely different things.

Quote

One group believes in the 'non-corporeal beings of God/Allah/Yahweh etc and the Angels, Holy Ghost, Jesus and pray to said entities supplicating them to fill their bodies and minds to be "filled with the holy spirit" or the word of God or the Healing Power of God/Jesus et al.  This group then speaks absolutely lucidly of their experience as being entirely real and measurable - the evidence is within their own "spirit", they would say it is absolute and true that these things have occurred - no science has ever breached this and proven it independently as fact either way.

Another group practices "rituals" to summon and command "non-corporeal" entities and leeches their energy with deliberation to use in magickal tools and will claim to sense and know they have this specific "archetypical" energy and it is now at their disposal to use - no science has ever breached this and proven it independently as fact either way.

I see prayer as a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

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Yet you disparage the beliefs of others and at the same time "speak with weight" about your own as though they are unimpeachable.

You're finally starting to see it my way

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It is interesting that you do not see the oddity of this existential position in thought, as you do claim to see the energies that arise from the sub-conscious into the conscious quite clearly and can even cyphen them from others as you find them "without permission" even if you want them.

Did I say I "see' them? Where did I say that, or is this just one thing you are assuming I believe and stated?

Quote

Could you possibly believe you see much more, or something utterly different than a full enquiry would find is actually there when you make these claims?  Just wondering if that had occurred to you at any time.

LOL, bring that up at the next Shaman party you go to

*snip*

Edited by Saru, 20 November 2012 - 06:11 PM.
Baiting, thread derailment

[Professor T]

Etu Malku, on 19 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Well . . . Professor,
Whereas I am certain in the vampire community there are so-called vampires who prey on unsuspecting hosts, but if you bothered to actually read any of the information on Predatory Spiritualism, you would have found that the Spirit/Essence/Energy that is being used, is from an archetypal host, and is stored in addition to what energy you already have, it is then used to enhance the ritual/working at hand.

An example being: During a ritual concerning Lilith, the archetypal demoness Lilith is brought out of the unconsciousness into the consciousness, then Her Energy/Essence/Ka is taken, stored, and possibly one use for it would be to empower a magickal tool of some sort.

I have read the information already posted, twice, you'll have to bare with me as some of it is left field of what I know..

Ok, this is very interesting...
I'm assuming that the taking of energy can take place at any time or place. would this be correct? What I lean is that you can take energy from others in public places, outside of a ritual process, busses, pubs, check-out ques..

Also, is there anything that hinders this process? By hindering I mean blocking or preventing it, talismans, things like that..

[JGirl]

Professor T, on 20 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Also, is there anything that hinders this process? By hindering I mean blocking or preventing it, talismans, things like that..

i can answer this last part:
yes there is something than can hinder it. it's called nonbelief.

[Etu Malku]

Professor T, on 20 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

I have read the information already posted, twice, you'll have to bare with me as some of it is left field of what I know..

No problem.

Quote

Ok, this is very interesting...
I'm assuming that the taking of energy can take place at any time or place. would this be correct? What I lean is that you can take energy from others in public places, outside of a ritual process, busses, pubs, check-out ques..

Quote

Also, is there anything that hinders this process? By hindering I mean blocking or preventing it, talismans, things like that..

For me, the process is an extremely focused and personal process and not something I just turn on & off.

Yes, there are ways to prevent your energy from being used by another.

Edited by Etu Malku, 20 November 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Etu Malku]

JGirl, on 20 November 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

i can answer this last part:
yes there is something than can hinder it. it's called nonbelief.

We are all painfully aware of your stance on this, if you're not going to contribute to the thread please move on.

[JGirl]

Etu Malku, on 20 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

We are all painfully aware of your stance on this, if you're not going to contribute to the thread please move on.

i am contributing to this thread. i have told you before you are welcome to not read what i post, i don't know why you bother if you don't like what you read.
you are trying to say that you have power over others. this is crap. you are no different from anyone else. you may be able to fool yourself or other players in your game, but it is just a game that you have convinced yourself is real and are now trying to persuade others of the same.
i can tell you with utmost certainty that you would never ever be able to take energy from me and i have no formal training in the so called dark arts to back that up. what i do have is a thinking brain and a good idea of my own potential and worth.
that, my friend(and i use the term loosely) is the bare bones of it.

[Professor T]

Etu Malku, on 20 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

No problem.




For me, the process is an extremely focused and personal process and not something I just turn on & off.

Yes, there are ways to prevent your energy from being used by another.

So, please elaborate..

Can you take energy from others in public places, outside of a ritual process, busses, pubs, check-out ques?

What hinders or blocks this process on the part of people who you take energy from?

[Etu Malku]

JGirl, on 20 November 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

i am contributing to this thread. i have told you before you are welcome to not read what i post, i don't know why you bother if you don't like what you read.
you are trying to say that you have power over others. this is crap. you are no different from anyone else. you may be able to fool yourself or other players in your game, but it is just a game that you have convinced yourself is real and are now trying to persuade others of the same.
i can tell you with utmost certainty that you would never ever be able to take energy from me and i have no formal training in the so called dark arts to back that up. what i do have is a thinking brain and a good idea of my own potential and worth.
that, my friend(and i use the term loosely) is the bare bones of it.

"Power" . . . now when did I say this?
"Crap" that's your opinion, you're entitled to it
I guarantee I can take your energy, because I can tell from your posts that you are not in control of your physical Self, much less your subtle body.

[Etu Malku]

Professor T, on 20 November 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

So, please elaborate..

Can you take energy from others in public places, outside of a ritual process, busses, pubs, check-out ques?

I personally cannot.

Quote

What hinders or blocks this process on the part of people who you take energy from?

Now why would I tell you this?

[Professor T]

Etu Malku, on 20 November 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I personally cannot.

Now why would I tell you this?

Oh well, if you are not willing to discuss this then please do not post and derail this thread anymore..

Thanks for the food for thought though.

[JGirl]

Etu Malku, on 20 November 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

"Power" . . . now when did I say this?
"Crap" that's your opinion, you're entitled to it
I guarantee I can take your energy, because I can tell from your posts that you are not in control of your physical Self, much less your subtle body.

your claim of being able to manipulate the energy of others without their knowledge insinuates you believe you have  power over others.
as for my opionion and my entitilement to it, i don't need you to agree or acknowledge it. however if you indeed felt that way why do you try to discount my opinion? that is a bit contradictory don't you think? (rhetorical)

as for the rest of that nonsense about being able to take my energy and how i am not in control of my subtle body - yeah you keep telling yourself that.

[Etu Malku]

JGirl, on 20 November 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

your claim of being able to manipulate the energy of others without their knowledge insinuates you believe you have  power over others.

Archetypes . . . don't you listen ever?

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as for my opionion and my entitilement to it, i don't need you to agree or acknowledge it. however if you indeed felt that way why do you try to discount my opinion? that is a bit contradictory don't you think? (rhetorical)

Simply because your opinion is wrong.

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as for the rest of that nonsense about being able to take my energy and how i am not in control of my subtle body - yeah you keep telling yourself that.

Actually, I was telling YOU that.

[JGirl]

Etu Malku, on 20 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Archetypes . . . don't you listen ever?

Simply because your opinion is wrong.

Actually, I was telling YOU that.

re: your words in bold above
i think you mean to say, i don't like your opinion.
the thing is, opinions, by their very nature, cannot be right or wrong. they are opinions,not facts to be measured .
just so you understand that.

yes i do listen.
you know, i think you're at the point where you are just protesting too much if you get my drift.
let it go - i have stated my case with you and you have stated yours. you say i am entitled to my opinion, which obviously does not mesh with yours, so why don't you just focus on those you think you can convince hmm?