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Where are the men who can move mountains?

jesus faith mountain mustard seed move

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#1    Raptor Witness

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:33 PM

We find several references to this power, mentioned by Jesus. Here is one ...

The Barren Fig Tree

18Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry.19Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, “No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you.” And at once the fig tree withered.

20Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, “How did the fig tree wither all at once?”21And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen.22“And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”

While generally assumed to be allegorical by most scholars and students, the example Jesus gave clearly wasn't an allegory. It was a real manifestation of supernatural power that astonished his Disciples.

So where are these men of whom Jesus spoke? If no human will ever attain this level of faith in all of history, why bother putting it out there as an example?

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Edited by Raptor Witness, 07 May 2013 - 11:41 PM.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#2    _Only

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:50 AM

I thought Jesus himself, and all stories involving him, were the allegories. So you wouldn't say "Jesus clearly did not mean it as an allegory; he meant it literally" when the man speaking it was a representation of an idea himself.

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#3    pallidin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:27 AM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 07 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

So where are these men of whom Jesus spoke? If no human will ever attain this level of faith in all of history, why bother putting it out there as an example?

Perhaps to express how little faith most people have?

Just a guess.


#4    Lesionia

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:41 AM

I believe it was possible, and still is but doubt clouds the mind.


#5    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:10 AM

In the Coptic Orthodox church traditions, there is the story of Simon the Tanner who moved a mountain during the 10th century, but that was after 3 days of non-stop fasting and prayers by all Copts: church clergy and laymen. The story is told here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Tanner


#6    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:26 AM

Not sure about moving mountains, but according to Pat Robertson homosexuals can cause tornadoes, tsunamis, and earthquakes.


#7    shrooma

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:48 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 08 May 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

In the Coptic Orthodox church traditions, there is the story of Simon the Tanner who moved a mountain during the 10th century, but that was after 3 days of non-stop fasting and prayers by all Copts
.
I wonder why the pope can't do it?
I mean, his piety levels must be off the chart, right?
you'd think that as god's chosen here on earth, he'd at least be able to move molehills if not full mountains??
maybe that's why the last one quit, citing 'not being able to serve the church as he should due to health issues' as the reason, because he realised his mountain-moving days were behind him....?
;-)

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#8    Raptor Witness

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:04 AM

View PostLesionia, on 08 May 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

I believe it was possible, and still is but doubt clouds the mind.
Perhaps then, doubt becomes a danger.

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 08 May 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

In the Coptic Orthodox church traditions, there is the story of Simon the Tanner who moved a mountain during the 10th century, but that was after 3 days of non-stop fasting and prayers by all Copts: church clergy and laymen. The story is told here:
http://en.wikipedia....imon_the_Tanner
Interesting, but not exactly what I had in mind. A mountain cast into the sea would create waves, which could be observed much further from the source. A big splash, in other words.

We see this picture repeated in the Book of Revelation, at the second trumpet. It then becomes a plague, poisoning the water.

Rev. Ch. 8

8The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,9and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

This passage appears to underline the previous teaching, as instead of a fig tree, part of the earth withers. There's no allegory in that. Power over the elements becomes very real, if you believe the story.

This isn't healing the sick or raising the dead that He is performing, this is something quite different, and He clearly gives permission to His followers to do the same.

So I must ask again, where are the men who can command the elements as Jesus taught?

Edited by Raptor Witness, 08 May 2013 - 07:20 AM.

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#9    Paranoid Android

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:09 PM

Last I checked, we weren't Jesus, son of God , blessed with a 100% divine nature, with such a relationship with God that he could perform miracles.  I know that Jesus gave this miraculous power to his disciples, in the early spread of Christianity, in order to help it along.  I never saw a permanent statement that we could do anything at all with prayer, including miraculously move mountains.  

This passage confused me when I was starting out in Christianity.  I wanted to know why would Jesus curse the fig tree simply for being out of season.  And I wanted to know why God would tell us that all we needed was to tell a mountain to go somewhere and it will.  The first question was easily answered as soon as I realised that the fig tree is often used as a symbol of Israel.  By cursing the fig tree for not being in season, not growing fruits, he was symbolically telling the Jews that there time was up.  They were out of season, and therefore grew no fruit.

The second question was a bit harder.  It took me a while before I understood the Bible well enough to form a coherent argument.  Using the "we don't have enough faith" card is workable, but I prefer a more complex interpretation.  We know from the text of the Bible that Jesus was walking near the Mount of Olives when he encountered the fig tree, and therefore where he was when he said "whoever says in prayer to that mountain, 'throw yourself in the sea', they can have faith that it will be done".  The Mount of Olives has a special place in Old Testament prophecy.  Of particular note is Zechariah 14, in which the coming of the Messiah will ultimately cause the ground to shake and roar - valleys will become mountains, and mountains will become valleys.  The Mount of Olives was to be hewn in two, and shattered to the east and to the west.  In which one of those directions (East, from memory, though don't quote me on that, I'm posting from memory here) lay the Mediterranean Ocean.  In other words, Jesus was pointing to Old Testament prophecy, and saying that if you pray for the coming Messiah, then have no doubt it will happen.  It doesn't give a time frame, as in "pray for the Messiah, and this prophecy will be fulfilled 30 seconds from that time".  The prayer Jesus is suggesting is simply a reliance on God, and we can be certain that reliance on God will be prayer answered, for God always upholds his promises to us.

Together then, we have Jesus symbolically cursing the Israelites with one hand, and then picking them up with the other to pull back to the eventual fulfillment of God's plan with the Messiah.  Of course, Jews and Christians these days disagree on when that Messiah has come/will come but the basic gist of the passage is still the same.  Hope it helps, maybe that will help you find the mountain-movers ;)

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#10    libstaK

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

As an allegory, a Mountain is an obstacle, one we cannot see over or around - we are our own mountainous obstacle, we can't see beyond the thought of the moment, the problems that we face (and create within our own minds). Those that can move mountains may be moving something much more profound than a piece of landscape out of the way of others who find themselves utterly cutoff.

Just putting that out there as a theory, not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

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#11    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:29 PM

View Postshrooma, on 08 May 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

.
I wonder why the pope can't do it?
I mean, his piety levels must be off the chart, right?
you'd think that as god's chosen here on earth, he'd at least be able to move molehills if not full mountains??
maybe that's why the last one quit, citing 'not being able to serve the church as he should due to health issues' as the reason, because he realised his mountain-moving days were behind him....?
;-)

You are confusing the Patriarch of Alexandria with the Bishop of Rome. One is the successor of St. Mark; the other is the successor of St. Peter. These are two different churches, with different histories and traditions. The Partriarch of Alexandria is "chairman and head of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria as a first among equals" which does not necessarily mean he is the most pious or infallible. Simon the Tanner was a saint, I guess the spiritual and the ecclesiastical 'pyramids' to not have to coincide.
http://en.wikipedia....h_of_Alexandria


#12    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 08 May 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Perhaps then, doubt becomes a danger.

Interesting, but not exactly what I had in mind. A mountain cast into the sea would create waves, which could be observed much further from the source. A big splash, in other words.

We see this picture repeated in the Book of Revelation, at the second trumpet. It then becomes a plague, poisoning the water.

Rev. Ch. 8

8The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,9and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

This passage appears to underline the previous teaching, as instead of a fig tree, part of the earth withers. There's no allegory in that. Power over the elements becomes very real, if you believe the story.

This isn't healing the sick or raising the dead that He is performing, this is something quite different, and He clearly gives permission to His followers to do the same.

So I must ask again, where are the men who can command the elements as Jesus taught?

I didn't realize that what you had in mind was the full literal manifestation of the NT verse. There are no seas next to Mokkatam, it is flanked by the desert! The story of Simon's miracle is interpreted in the Coptic traditions as timely divine response to the people's 'Kyrie eleison' prayer, by which they evaded threatened genocide. This was the only example that came to my mind. Generally, I take Jesus' saying to mean that faith can move mountains (problems, hardship), but not to control elements. I'm afraid I cannot answer your question. As for the Revelations verse, I always took the burning mountain to be some kind of meteorite!


#13    _Only

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 03:03 AM

Even if you want to take what he said literally, which you can't really honestly say it was, the prerequisite to doing any of these hypothetical feats would be being 100% clear of any doubt that what you are doing is possible. So I guess the question is where are the people who have 100% belief in their ability to move mountains, and there you will find your mountain movers. I don't have 100% faith that any people like this exist, to be honest.

But I do know there are world famous celebrities/musicians/authors/etc. who say they are where they are today (living their dreams) due to the mindset of having no doubt that they would achieve their dreams and be what they want to be. If only we could all be this way.

We could place mountains wherever we want, and build our lives/world the way we want them. Living the dream.

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#14    Raptor Witness

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:28 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 08 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

The second question was a bit harder.  It took me a while before I understood the Bible well enough to form a coherent argument.  Using the "we don't have enough faith" card is workable, but I prefer a more complex interpretation.
First, I don't think we should assume the fig tree was out of season. That's just a leap over faith and into warm and fuzzy no-where land. I think He just got mad, and His anger resulted in the exact opposite of healing. It certainly impressed His disciples. I mean wow; He can make bad things happen too. Throwing a mountain into the ocean is about anger, and that's why we see it again in Revelation.

If we use your line of reasoning, then every miracle He performed had something attached to it besides genuine human emotion. In other words, you dehumanize Him, which is a huge part of the foundation of our faith.

Jesus was just being good when he was healing the sick and raising the dead, but He never hurt anything intentionally? He never had a bad day? I have a gut feeling that He hurt more than just the fig tree, and when we see that mountain thrown into the sea in Revelation and about a billion people die; He won't be doing it to reason away His emotions. He'll be doing it because, He's mad.

This castration of Jesus must infuriate Him. No wonder He kills about two thirds of mankind. They refuse to believe He was a real man who can also kill you in a heartbeat with what simply comes out of His mouth.

Remember, in the end He spits out the luke-warm church, and what man returns to His spittle on the ground? They make Him sick.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 09 May 2013 - 07:44 AM.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#15    shrooma

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:49 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 08 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:



You are confusing the Patriarch of Alexandria with the Bishop of Rome.
.
nope.
not confusing anyone with anyone else i'm afraid.
I was merely stating that the pope, being the head of the catholic church, would have 100% belief, and therefore, should be someone with the kind of faith, as the OP said, that could move mountains, but i've never heard of a pope yet who's been involved in any major construction projects.
all I was doing was agreeing with the OP's question, where indeed are the people who can move mountains....?

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