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Contradictions in the bible


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#121    ranrod

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:03 AM

Here's an interesting take on it:
http://24.media.tumb...sn03o1_1280.jpg


#122    scowl

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:16 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 17 October 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

I've always thought the same thing, you aren't the only one.

In my liberal Hebrew school, we were encouraged to make our judgments about God's behavior (utter blasphemy to most Christians who don't read the Bible). A lot of us really liked the idea that God was a young and immature god in the early books. His behavior is very much like kid watching a movie full of devious characters and cheering whenever they do something nasty. When the characters didn't do what He wanted, He screamed at them or blasted them or massacred them for His entertainment. After the Flood, God realized that His tantrums were useless and He grew up a little.

As the chronology of the Bible proceeds, you see God is much less interested in the day-to-day activities of his chosen people, kind of like a child becoming less interested in a new toy. You really don't see the "fatherly" side of God until much later as if He were a human growing up and becoming wiser and using what He had learned about his creations. I don't see how anyone could possibly think that the God in the Bible was always perfect, never changing.


#123    Bling

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:34 PM

Here's another good example:

Is God good or evil?
  • Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
  • Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs
  • Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
  • Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
  • Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
  • Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Most probable Source of the above

Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to spend eternity with?

Edited by Karlis, 19 October 2012 - 02:21 AM.
Added source.


#124    Bling

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostBling, on 18 October 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Here's another good example:

Is God good or evil?
  • Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
  • Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs
  • Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
  • Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
  • Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
  • Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Most probable Source of the above

Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to spend eternity with?


Not the source actually. The reason I didn't add it Karlis is because it contains a swear word and I didn't want to offend anyone thank you.
http://www.religioni...tradictions.php

Maybe ask me next time ;)

Edited by Bling, 19 October 2012 - 06:46 PM.


#125    Bling

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:45 PM

:su

Edited by Bling, 19 October 2012 - 06:46 PM.


#126    Urisk

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:15 PM

View PostVatic, on 15 October 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

For several years I was a participant in CBED (Christian Biblical Errancy Debate) forum. What I observed was that the forum was directed at underminining only the fundemantalist position of a perfect Bible. It was thought by the host that proving contradictions was somehow going to disporove God. The host didn't realize that his atheist position was also premised on the unconscious need for the fundementalist position to be valid so that he could prove God doesn't exist if he finds contradictions.

The end result was that neither the fundamentalist were correct about a perfect Bible, nor was he correct about errors disproving God.

The Bible is NOT perfect, nor a complete canon, nor the final word of authority. But it IS a very valuable resource of knowledge about God that should be understood as deeply as possible.

I also observed that the antagonist of the Bible were very good at data mining the Bible for extremely obscure referances. Their main problem was that they had a blindness to the actual Biblical narrative, which meant they often had things so rediculously out of context, that their examples of supposed contradictions were often just utter ignorance of mind. This is why the "talking snake"thing threw them so badly. They didn't have actual insight into the Garden of Eden account because they, like the fundies, confined themselves to the Bible to a large degree, and never drew upon the source materials the bible itself is drawing upon.

It is manifest in reality that even though the Bible isn't perfect, apparently it isn't of extreme concern to God. Indeed since mankind has the capacity to percieve problems in the text, he also has the capacity to read through them without derailing. Unless of course he has fundementlist conditioning, in which case his capacity to see errors, understand the Bible, and correct in his mind any problems, is severely diminished.

Before you allow yourself to be overwhelmed by an energetic antagonist of the Bible with outrageous amounts of contradictions they find, just realize that their knowledge of the Scriptures is superficial, and they tend to see contradiction where they aren't, see them in every verse, and most of it is based upon ignorance.

Before you allow yourself to be convinced of a perfect authoritative Bible by a dazzling fundemantalist, remember they are also very superficial in their understanding of the Bible, and see perfection where it doesn't exist. This also is based in ignorance.

What is the situation then concerning the two camps at either side of the battle ground? The situation is that the discussion is a dynamic example of the fallacy of "Excluding the Middle" or the "False Dichotomy". Either side would say if there is an error, "God is phoney", which is an extreme, unrealistic and unreasonable position for either the proponants or the antagonist camps to be suggesting. In reality, God is not dependant upon a perfect Bible. God existed long before anyone ever thought about selecting their collection of approved official text into a single canon.

Beware of this lopsided thinking. Have no illusions of a perfect Bible. But have no illusions that the Bible is somehow invalid either. Have no illusions that it disproves God by being imperfect, or that truth is not in the Bible. Profound truths and even secret knowledge is all through the Bible if you know what you are looking at. It is NOT to be utterly dismissed as this is an irrational response to the question of Biblical errors.

Your arguement of fundamentalists is where the problem lies, and it's what you're touching on. It's not about rational Christians who take the Bible as a book of fables designed to teach you how to live pretty well, it's about people who take it all as face value- which is why all the contradictions is an issue here.

I remember, and this will probably never leave me, at Primary School we had a pretty level-headed minister visit quite regularly to teach us about religion- not just Christianity. Anyway one session we're all at our desks listening intently when he walked over to me, picked up my dictionary and asked "what's this"? I said "well... it's a book?". Then he said "Exactly! And that's all the Bible is!" What he was getting at is that the Bible does not have the answers- the answers lie within whether you feel a fellowship or belonging with the religion you subscribe to. I am in no way religious (quite the opposite) but I can really appreciate that sentiment.

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#127    ranrod

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:55 AM

View PostUrisk, on 20 October 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Your arguement of fundamentalists is where the problem lies, and it's what you're touching on. It's not about rational Christians who take the Bible as a book of fables designed to teach you how to live pretty well, it's about people who take it all as face value- which is why all the contradictions is an issue here.

I remember, and this will probably never leave me, at Primary School we had a pretty level-headed minister visit quite regularly to teach us about religion- not just Christianity. Anyway one session we're all at our desks listening intently when he walked over to me, picked up my dictionary and asked "what's this"? I said "well... it's a book?". Then he said "Exactly! And that's all the Bible is!" What he was getting at is that the Bible does not have the answers- the answers lie within whether you feel a fellowship or belonging with the religion you subscribe to. I am in no way religious (quite the opposite) but I can really appreciate that sentiment.
I agree.  If you take the bible literally, you're going to have a very sad life.


#128    seishin

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:20 AM

View Postscowl, on 18 October 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

In my liberal Hebrew school, we were encouraged to make our judgments about God's behavior (utter blasphemy to most Christians who don't read the Bible). A lot of us really liked the idea that God was a young and immature god in the early books. His behavior is very much like kid watching a movie full of devious characters and cheering whenever they do something nasty. When the characters didn't do what He wanted, He screamed at them or blasted them or massacred them for His entertainment. After the Flood, God realized that His tantrums were useless and He grew up a little.

As the chronology of the Bible proceeds, you see God is much less interested in the day-to-day activities of his chosen people, kind of like a child becoming less interested in a new toy. You really don't see the "fatherly" side of God until much later as if He were a human growing up and becoming wiser and using what He had learned about his creations. I don't see how anyone could possibly think that the God in the Bible was always perfect, never changing.

Sounds about right... just a big baby

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#129    seishin

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:24 AM

View PostBling, on 18 October 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Here's another good example:

Is God good or evil?
  • Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
  • Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs
  • Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
  • Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
  • Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
  • Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Most probable Source of the above

Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to spend eternity with?

Yeah, that's the thing for me... At one time I thought of God as being "Santa-like", but it wasn't until I read the last four verses there (among other verses and some dabbling in philosophy) that I realized that God pretty much does whatever the heck he wants! Taking an idea from the movie Prince of Darkness as a means to explain myself, I see God (assuming one does in fact exist) as an antithetical entity; i.e. both good and evil reflected. In a very Taoist sense, in order for God to be good, he would also have to be bad.

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#130    GoSC

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:34 AM

View PostBling, on 18 October 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Here's another good example:

Is God good or evil?
  • Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
  • Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs
  • Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
  • Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
  • Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
  • Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Most probable Source of the above

Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to spend eternity with?

I always understood that these verses are speaking explicitly about the judgments and curses spoken of in the Torah against societies and peoples that lead continuous disobedient and sinful lives. And that God will even lead them further astray because of they have chosen to be wilfully disobedient and sinful, He will lead them into even greater sin, by that making His judgments and curses absolute and justified. But those that are wise and those that love God will turn away and repent before their sins ensnare them completely and preventing whatever destruction God has purposed.

These are folks that are on the very edge of the precipice, and God is going to send a soft wind to send them flailing over the edge. Not everyone, some will survive the soft winds and still be standing perilously on the edge while others will have long escaped this predicament with a renewed life that may never be on that precipice again.

These verses sorta represent God promising "I am warning you, something bad is going to happen to you unless you wake up and come back to Me. It will be the destructiveness of sin and disobedience that going to be your ultimate or penultimate eternal undoing. You are going to destroy yourself and be watchful and be on guard, please listen to Me, fore I am going to assist you to destroy yourself."

Just my .02 cents.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#131    ranrod

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:18 AM

View PostBling, on 18 October 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Here's another good example:

Is God good or evil?
  • Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
  • Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs
  • Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
  • Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
  • Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
  • Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Most probable Source of the above

Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to spend eternity with?


This touches on a debate I often have with Christians, Jews, and myself.  You'll find that the grand majority of contradictions and ****ed up stuff happens in the old testament.  Christians often counter with, "but God change course for humans in the new testament.  The old testament is there simply as a reference and historical context for what was to come."  Of course, that still places the entirety of the Torah in a negative light.  The new testament is harder to poke at for various reasons, but it created some screwy stuff, like the holy trinity, the nature of Jesus (man, god, or both), the nature of Mary, Jesus references God as if he Jesus never read the Torah (like stating that God loves us all), etc.  Not as bad as the bat-**** crazy stuff in the OT.


#132    Karlis

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:16 AM

View PostBling, on 18 October 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Here's another good example:

Is God good or evil?
  • Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
  • Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs
  • Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
  • Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
  • Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
  • Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Most probable Source of the above

Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to spend eternity with?
Hi Bling,

Anti-Bible websites quote Ezekiel 20:25-26 as an example of God’s self-contradiction.  However, these  Scriptures are sound and sensible, if one looks at their meaning within the context of their historical events.


Eze 20:25  Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26  And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.


In verses 25-26 Ezekiel tells Israel that because of Israel’s rebellion, God has abandoned Israel (for the time being) and allowed Israel to continue rebelling against God’s laws, polluting God’s Sabbaths, following pagan idols, etc. In other words, through its own actions, Israel will inevitably reap the punishment it is bringing upon itself.

This very same teaching is also brought out in the New Testament, in Romans 1:18-32.
Verse 28 specifically refers to Ezekiel 20:25-26.

Rom 1:28 (ISV)  Furthermore, because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the full knowledge of God, God gave them over to degraded minds to perform acts that should not be done.


For the background read Ezekiel 20 from verse one onwards, to understand why Israel at that time was in Babylonian captivity (593 to 571 BC). For an overview


As a sort of an "end-note", that eventually "all will turn out well in the end", here are excerpts from the closing part of Ezekiel chapter 20:
39 “As for you, O people of Israel, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Go right ahead and worship your idols, but sooner or later you will obey me and will stop bringing shame on my holy name by worshiping idols. 40 For on my holy mountain, the great mountain of Israel, says the Sovereign Lord, the people of Israel will someday worship me, and I will accept them. ... 41 When I bring you home from exile, you will be like a pleasing sacrifice to me. And I will display my holiness through you as all the nations watch. 42 Then when I have brought you home to the land I promised with a solemn oath to give to your ancestors, you will know that I am the Lord. 43 You will look back on all the ways you defiled yourselves and will hate yourselves because of the evil you have done. 44 You will know that I am the Lord, O people of Israel, when I have honored my name by treating you mercifully in spite of your wickedness. I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken!”


#133    ranrod

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostKarlis, on 22 October 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

Hi Bling,

Anti-Bible websites quote Ezekiel 20:25-26 as an example of God’s self-contradiction.  However, these  Scriptures are sound and sensible, if one looks at their meaning within the context of their historical events.
I see your point but I also see problems with that line of reasoning.  The reasoning seems to be: given that everything in the bible is correct, how can we change reality around it to fit?  In this case you seem to be interpreting what was going through god's head as if you, or anyone else, could know.
Regardless of the historical context, I think the contradiction stands.  God, supposedly in his own words, said he is capable of evil and has acted in evil.  No historical context will take away from that fact, and the reasons behind it don't matter.  The acts of that god speak for themselves as well: flood, sodom and gomorrah, plagues, meteors, disease, mutilations, etc.  It's a pretty pissed-off, ruthless, vain, sadistic, angry, tyrant of a god.


#134    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:52 AM

View Postranrod, on 22 October 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I see your point but I also see problems with that line of reasoning.  The reasoning seems to be: given that everything in the bible is correct, how can we change reality around it to fit?  In this case you seem to be interpreting what was going through god's head as if you, or anyone else, could know.
Regardless of the historical context, I think the contradiction stands.  God, supposedly in his own words, said he is capable of evil and has acted in evil.  No historical context will take away from that fact, and the reasons behind it don't matter.  The acts of that god speak for themselves as well: flood, sodom and gomorrah, plagues, meteors, disease, mutilations, etc.  It's a pretty pissed-off, ruthless, vain, sadistic, angry, tyrant of a god.

A quote from a website I think nails god's personality on the head:

"enjoys burning of the flesh, whipping, torturing, battering, mutilation, and sometimes annihilation"

What is mentally deranged:

http://mental-health...y_Deranged.html

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Who is like God
The epitome of evil

#135    Ben Masada

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostBling, on 12 October 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

I love the way the bible contradicts itself as it adds to the argument I have that it was not inspired by God but written by storytellers. Here's a good example: Has anyone seen God?

Quote

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."

That's not a contradiction. Jacob was having a dream and, in his dream, he saw God. Everything is possible in a dream; even to see God and live.

Quote

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

Moses is claimed to have been the most important prophet in the history of Israel. To distinguish him from the other prophets, it was a honorable way to say that he saw God face to face. But as a human prophet that he was, he did see God but in a dream, as that was the method for God to make His will known to them. (Num. 12:6) The truth is that, when Moses prayed to really see the glory of God, he was denied his request under the same reason that no man can see God and live. Only in a dream.

Quote

Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."

Again, that's the way prophets would see God: In a dream, according to Numbers 12:6. Here, in the case of Isaiah, the dream was so lucid that he thought he had really seen God face to face. Besides, God neither has a face to be seen nor a buttom to sit Himself upon a throne. God is Spirit; and spirits are incorporeal.

Quote

Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

This is a progress from only having an idea of God to having a better understanding of His essence. Nothing of seeying God face to face. Therefore, there is no contradiction in the Scriptures. All you have to do is to distinguish between literal and metaphorical interpretation.

Ben





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