179 replies to this topic

[Kazahel]

bee, on 24 October 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

Something has felt wrong to me about this whole Gaddafi/Libya episode from the beginning.

I feel the same.

I cant word it very well but I chose not to watch any footage of his death because I feel it would sadden me. And the news I have seen I found disturbing. I guess because I imagine his fear at being caught and about to be killed(and asking not to be killed), which made me feel sad for him.

Edited by Kazahel, 25 October 2011 - 03:59 PM.

[Scepticus]

Corp, on 25 October 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

The Syrian opposition group is just starting to get organized, in part with Turkey's help. Before that they were very divided. And based on opinions expressed by our own Syrian members they don't want any kind of Western help. The protesters want aid to make the Syrian government halt their attacks but I'm not sure they've formally asked for direct military intervention, at least not from NATO as a whole. I imagine they've been focusing their efforts on Turkey and members of the Arab League.

And you're right that business concerns do have Russia and China protecting the Syrian government. However do they get the blame for the continued violence? Nope. It's all the West's fault for not stepping in. China and Russia get a free ride but the West must be condemned for "only caring about oil". Of course if the West did get involved in Syria you'd have people screaming about how this is a crusade, a plan to set up an invasion of Iran, wanting to build an oil pipeline or something, ordered to do it by Israel, etc etc.

Yes the US only do things that is of benefit to them, just like every single country in the world. However it's only the US, and by extention the West, that gets condemned no matter what they do. It's a rather tiring double standard.

The Syrian opposition group have tried and tried to organise, but gets killed before they can really do anything. Yes indeed they want the Arab league to help. The same thing did the Libyan people, but nothing happened. The only thing the Arab league will do is tell the Syrian government, just like they have done, that they should sit down with the oppostion group and figure things out. That's not going to happen, also Assad have criticised the Arab league for interfering.

I dont know if you are under the impression that Turkey is a member of the Arab league, but if that's the case i can tell that they are not. (Please don't bite my head of if i am wrong)

I have friends, which have family in Syria. I'm under the impression they want the UN to help get rid of Assad. If the UN decides to help, which they aren't, it would be NATO that will have the operating control. Just like in Libya, they didn't ask NATO but the UN.

Can you please divert me into the topic were Syrian members have expressed their beliefs, cant find it myself.

Edited by Scepticus, 25 October 2011 - 05:03 PM.

[Corp]

Turkey isn't part of the Arab League, that's why I mentioned them by name. They seem to be the main supporters of the opposition group though. And because the Arab League is divided about how to handle Syria they're never going to give the green light for military operations, which was one of the key factors for kicking off the Libyan campaign. Same with getting UN support. NATO did its very best to be open about going into Libya and getting not only local permission but also regional and world support. Even so there are many who condemn NATO for stepping in, saying they only wanted the oil they were already getting. Then these same people condemn NATO for not stepping in to deal with Syria. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Given the UN track record they're not going to do much of anything to stop Assad. The only military group that seems able and willing to step in on matters like this is NATO and Russia, China, and Iran aren't going to let that happen. I think the best hope for the Syrian opposition group is for Turkey to get sick of what's going on and step in. They're not Arab but they'd be more welcome than a Western power.


Here's some topics where the Syrian protests have been talked about:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=208086

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=202937

[johnny page]

CNN,FOX,NBC announced yesterday that he had a stick and a knife stuck up his 3rd eye before he was executed by the rebels.
there is video of it somewhere which i don't want to see.

[BiffSplitkins]

johnny page, on 25 October 2011 - 06:52 PM, said:

CNN,FOX,NBC announced yesterday that he had a stick and a knife stuck up his 3rd eye before he was executed by the rebels.
there is video of it somewhere which i don't want to see.

I wonder if Obama will claim responsibility for that too?

[The New Richard Nixon]

I don't know some Americans and Eastern European countries like Gaddafi?

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Oh right, so now the People actually loved gadaffi and it was all a Conspiracy by the U.S. to, oh, all the usual stuff I suppose.
yeah, i think I've seen enough here.

[AmpleFyre]

Yesterday, I heard on TV people joking how Gaddafi was bald and how he wore a wig. They made jokes how his wig was probably glued onto his hat, like a 'halloween costume'. I really wanted to tell these people to their faces: "How high and mighty you are, making jokes about a dead man. How proper and regal you are, making fun of a man who was brutally murdered without a trial. No matter what he did, or the lives he had ruined, destroyed, and left in shambles, he was still a human being. Worthy of a trial just as you or I. How proud of yourself you must be. How witty you must think of yourselves."

I held no love and shed no tears for Gaddafi, but I also don't condone the mutilation or slander of the dead.
If you must kill your enemy, show some respect. They wouldn't be worth killing, otherwise.

[bee]

Kazahel, on 25 October 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

I feel the same.

I cant word it very well but I chose not to watch any footage of his death because I feel it would sadden me. And the news I have seen I found disturbing. I guess because I imagine his fear at being caught and about to be killed(and asking not to be killed), which made me feel sad for him.

Thanks.

I feel sad for the whole of Lybia. Their country has been wrecked.

Not by Gaddafi...he built it up...but by NATO and his internal rivals for power.

Who were used as willing puppets, IMO...and what a delightful bunch THEY turned

out to be !!!


Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama might not have been the ones to actually beat, abuse, sodomize and kill him.

But THEY are responsible.

In a court of law it's not just the Hit Man that gets prosecuted, it's the one who arranged and payed for it.


I expect it will all go pretty quiet on the MSM news front now...apart from the propaganda to keep 'reminding'

the tax paying public, who payed for it all.....how BAD Gaddafi was and how RIGHT we were.


Jeeeeezus...what a world we live in !



edit to add.......well said DeltaEcho


.

Edited by bee, 25 October 2011 - 09:46 PM.

[Habitat]

Corp, on 25 October 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

Yes the US only do things that is of benefit to them, just like every single country in the world. However it's only the US, and by extention the West, that gets condemned no matter what they do. It's a rather tiring double standard.

So the "benefit"  from this military action was what, if not oil-related ?

[el midgetron]

I can't verify every point made in the video but from what I have heard allot of it is true.

There is no doubt that Gaddafi was killed for economic reasons.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

I'm just wondering, how many people expressed sentiments such as those that have been expressed in this thread, that Gadaffi deserved some respect and a fair trial because he was a Human being, after O bin L was bumped off, in a very similar fashion? (And does anyone not reckon that the Team Six had a good old kickaround with his body?) Does anyone say that Bin L deserved some respect? If not, what's the difference? That Bin l was bumped off by the U.S., who would naturally behave in a decent and civilised fashion? Or was it just that no one dared express such sentiments, since Bin L was the Global hate Object, while for some reason people seem to think that gadaffi was actually loved by his People and it was all a conspiracy by the U.S. to get their hands on his Oil.
It doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Edited by 747400, 26 October 2011 - 06:49 AM.

[The New Richard Nixon]

bee, on 25 October 2011 - 09:43 PM, said:

Thanks.

I feel sad for the whole of Lybia. Their country has been wrecked.

Not by Gaddafi...he built it up...but by NATO and his internal rivals for power.

Who were used as willing puppets, IMO...and what a delightful bunch THEY turned

out to be !!!


Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama might not have been the ones to actually beat, abuse, sodomize and kill him.

But THEY are responsible.

In a court of law it's not just the Hit Man that gets prosecuted, it's the one who arranged and payed for it.


I expect it will all go pretty quiet on the MSM news front now...apart from the propaganda to keep 'reminding'

the tax paying public, who payed for it all.....how BAD Gaddafi was and how RIGHT we were.


Jeeeeezus...what a world we live in !



edit to add.......well said DeltaEcho


.

You seem to have forgot the history why people feared Gaddaffi, he used propaganda and fear to everyone and outside Libya.
Yet you seem to forget to mention the Arab League and don't blame them? yet it was them who asked for help and advice.
Gaddaffi didn't like NATO he liked all those communist countries that didn't like the West or were mutal.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

bee, on 25 October 2011 - 09:43 PM, said:

Thanks.

I feel sad for the whole of Lybia. Their country has been wrecked.

Not by Gaddafi...he built it up...but by NATO and his internal rivals for power.

Who were used as willing puppets, IMO...and what a delightful bunch THEY turned

out to be !!!


Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama might not have been the ones to actually beat, abuse, sodomize and kill him.

But THEY are responsible.

In a court of law it's not just the Hit Man that gets prosecuted, it's the one who arranged and payed for it.

Would you say the same about those who authorised the hit on Bin L?

[skookum]

Erix, on 26 October 2011 - 08:26 AM, said:

You seem to have forgot the history why people feared Gaddaffi, he used propaganda and fear to everyone and outside Libya.
Yet you seem to forget to mention the Arab League and don't blame them? yet it was them who asked for help and advice.
Gaddaffi didn't like NATO he liked all those communist countries that didn't like the West or were mutal.

Yeah but people are obsessed that everything is an oil war.  I was under the impression that the Middle East pump it out of the ground and then sell it to the West as well as other communist countries on a free market and make lots of money from it.  In fact it is most middle east countries soul export.  Libya has a small population and a large oil wealth yet the people lived in relative poverty whilst Gaddaffi family amassed a huge personal wealth from oil revenue.

I never understand "the Americans and Brits went in for the oil" argument.  What did we walk in pump it all out of the ground and leave?  No we bought oil from them under Gaddaffi rule and we will continue too after.  I would have thought that it is less certain about future supplies considering we have no idea what type of Government will be elected and what policies they will have.   Plus people talk of an invasion?  What invasion?  I didn't see thousands of our soldiers rushing into the country to take it over, it was a civil war.

There have been clear mistakes in the Middle East, namely Iraq which was a disaster.  But what is happening there now is the people demanding more freedom and a better standard of living.  

However the conspiracy fanatics will continue to claim this is all the work or the CIA acting under cruel western leaders.