251 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 16 February 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I can see the problem here you are .presenting subjective impressions as objective ,whereas I do not .

I found this excerpt in a longer piece but i will only post the relevant bit, ,this is a quote from that piece

.
Easy Ways to Remember Objective and Subjective
Objective : sounds like the word object. You should be objective whenever you are discussing an object, something concrete that you can hold or touch. The facts that make up your objective statement should also be concrete, solid objects.
Subjective : is just the opposite. You can’t point to subjective subjects. They are all in your head and your past experiences. Subjective opinions are ephemeral and subject to any number of factors that can range from facts to emotions.

Examples of Objective and Subjective
Objective : scientific facts are objective as are mathematical proofs; essentially anything that can be backed up with solid data.
Subjective : opinions, interpretations, and any type of marketing presentation are all subjective.
Summary:
1.Objective and subjective statements are used by speakers to get their points across.
2.Objective statements are facts that can be verified by third parties while subjective statements may or may not be entirely true as they are colored by the opinions of the speaker.
3.Objective statements are most commonly found in the hard sciences, whereas subjective statements are generally used to describe the arts.

.  So if you have  concrete evidence that can be backed up with data please post it and forget about walls and dogs these are things not in dispute and I don't require evidence of them

fullywired

yes I am fully aware of objective and subjective ways of thinking. I use both deliberately. For example I identify an angel using objective evidences as i would identify a dog, but i acknolwedge that naming something has a subjective component.

I go by the normal published parameters for an angel  when I talk about angels, as i do for dogs when i talk about dogs.

So god and angels are physical objects/entities, like dogs and walls,  which i can describe and discuss objectively as i could a flower or a dog or a wall.

But i also have subjective reactions to and intepretaions of them (as i do for my wife and dog ) EG i like them So my description of a flower is objective but my feeling about a flower is subjective EG "The flower is red" is an objective description. "The flower is pretty" is a subjective one "The flower was 1 cm in diameter" is an objective description. "The flower  was petite" is subjective.

I can give you detailed objective descriptions of angels and of god, and of miracles (or objectively)  "presently inexplicable  manipulations and alterations of matter and energy controlled by sapient purpose."

So you believe in  the solidity of walls and dogs via faith do you? How do you KNOW when you see one, that it is not an hallucination?

[Mr Walker]

IamsSon, on 17 February 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I think you've hit upon the issue, Mr. W., but it was not quite a direct hit.

I read story online once (and I have since been googling for it, but have not found it again) about God appearing to an atheist and trying to prove to him that He is God.  In the end, after God has told the man things he had done that the man thought no one else knew about, had revealed things that would happen in the future, and had transported the man halfway across the world instantaneously, the man was still unconvinced since he could not be sure that God was not simply a very powerful extraterrestrial, a contemporary human with an amazing mutation, or even a visitor from the far future (quoting Arthur C. Clarke, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") .  I think any attempt made to prove the existence of even the physical manifestation of God you have interacted with, would meet with the same results.

This is true. I have no problem with god being a very powerful alien entity because, actually that is what god is even in christian terms. God is a name humans have given to such an entity when they either meet him or when they construct such a beingin their minds.

[Mr Walker]

yearofthehater, on 17 February 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

once you get rid of all the religous spiritual stuff which doesn't have any real evidence whatsover to back it up the meaning of life is just survival of the fittest for every creature to be evolutionarily successful. We live in a meaningless cold and mechanical universe where the strong flourish and prosper at the expense of the weak and although this is savage and cruel it is the natural order. Religon was just one of those things we had to sheild us from the true bleakness of existence and even that has been shown up as the lie it is.

It is impossible to reconcile the concept of a benevolent creator with the abject reality of existence

As the great David Attenborough said when asked about his views on God:

''My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy'.<sup>''


Can any christian give a satisfactory answer to this? I doubt it.</sup>

The fundamentalist christian's response, based on the bible, is simple.

God did not create a world in which that parasitic worm existed in its present form. God created an edenic world with no death, decay, pain, suffering,  etc. Humans were connected to, and protected by, the power of god, and the earth was an entirely different ecosystem For example it was all one temp. and  much more humid,  with a much higher oxygen content, but there was no rain.  According to such belief, and from the bible, this world will be recreated after armageddon as a new paradise for humans  In fundamentlaist biblical christian terms, ALL pain, suffering, evil, death, decay etc., is a consequence of man separating himself from god.

Obviously this is all impossible under current physics, but indeed tha tis the point. The physics of the world were differnt then. MAn changed the nature of the world in separating himself from god.

I am an evolutionist and dont believe all this, but i do know that, in separating ourselves from god in our lives today, we bring pain, suffering and  fear etc., into our lives which dont need to be there.

God can restore us, here and now, to the state in which adam and eve are described as living, if we allow him to enter into our hearts minds and bodies. Ie Without fear, without suffering, without anger, hate, jealousy, envy, greed etc. But  filled and empowered  with joy, love, courage, and knowing that we are never alone. So empowered, no one needs drugs or alcohol to be ahppy And one is filed with respect for self and others and thus treats themselves and others with the utmost respect. And so one would do things like eat healthily and exercise but also not even think of stealing from another or cheating on a spouse. If you respect yourself and others, you just can't do those things.

Ps I am incredibly saddened to hear that you live an abject existence, in a world filled with savagery and cruelty. I live a rich, happy, empowered, loving and loved existence, in a world of love compassion,  generosity and many more wonderful human qualities. But then, I share my world all the time, with a very real and powerful god who confers on me. just by living within me, all those benefits and many more. I ensure my world is not cruel or savage, by how I treat others, my environment and animals, and how i expect/allow  other people to deal with me. No one on this earth has the power to hurt me, or anger me, or make me jealous or sad or envious, unless i permit them to.

Edited by Mr Walker, 18 February 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Seeker79]

Mr Walker, on 18 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

The fundamentalist christian's response, based on the bible, is simple.

God did not create a world in which that parasitic worm existed in its present form. God created an edenic world with no death, decay, pain, suffering,  etc. Humans were connected to, and protected by, the power of god, and the earth was an entirely different ecosystem For example it was all one temp. and  much more humid,  with a much higher oxygen content, but there was no rain.  According to such belief, and from the bible, this world will be recreated after armageddon as a new paradise for humans  In fundamentlaist biblical christian terms, ALL pain, suffering, evil, death, decay etc., is a consequence of man separating himself from god.

Obviously this is all impossible under current physics, but indeed tha tis the point. The physics of the world were differnt then. MAn changed the nature of the world in separating himself from god.

I am an evolutionist and dont believe all this, but i do know that, in separating ourselves from god in our lives today, we bring pain, suffering and  fear etc., into our lives which dont need to be there.

God can restore us, here and now, to the state in which adam and eve are described as living, if we allow him to enter into our hearts minds and bodies. Ie Without fear, without suffering, without anger, hate, jealousy, envy, greed etc. But  filled and empowered  with joy, love, courage, and knowing that we are never alone. So empowered, no one needs drugs or alcohol to be ahppy And one is filed with respect for self and others and thus treats themselves and others with the utmost respect. And so one would do things like eat healthily and exercise but also not even think of stealing from another or cheating on a spouse. If you respect yourself and others, you just can't do those things.

Ps I am incredibly saddened to hear that you live an abject existence, in a world filled with savagery and cruelty. I live a rich, happy, empowered, loving and loved existence, in a world of love compassion,  generosity and many more wonderful human qualities. But then, I share my world all the time, with a very real and powerful god who confers on me. just by living within me, all those benefits and many more. I ensure my world is not cruel or savage, by how I treat others, my environment and animals, and how i expect/allow  other people to deal with me. No one on this earth has the power to hurt me, or anger me, or make me jealous or sad or envious, unless i permit them to.

I would swear MW, that you are Neale Donald Walch only pretending to be an Australian school teacher

Edited by Seeker79, 18 February 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 18 February 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

.
So you believe in  the solidity of walls and dogs via faith do you? How do you KNOW when you see one, that it is not an hallucination?

You got to be joking


  fullywired

[Mr Walker]

Seeker79, on 18 February 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I would swear MW, that you are Neale Donald Walch only pretending to be an Australian school teacher

I'd never heard of the bloke until you mentioned him but he does seem somewhat familiar in looks and philosophy.

This quote especially resonates with me, as indeed it is my own purpose in life.

Neale Donald Walsch was deeply inspired by this message received, "the purpose of life is to recreate ourselves anew in the highest version of the grandest vision we ever had about ourselves."

^{In addition , it is my hope and purpose in life to help other people be all that they can be, as well.}

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 18 February 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

You got to be joking


  fullywired

What evidences do you use to test the reality of a wall Or do you just accept its existence in faith?
Now if those evidences are satisfactory to test the solidity and reality of a wall, why are they not adequate to test the solidity and reality of an angel or a god?

Do you KNOW you can't walk through a wall, or are you just taking that as an article of faith/belief?

If you can know it, then you can also, using the same evidences, know that angels and god are as real as a wall (or insubstantial hallucinations which you can walk straight through) Either way, by using evidences to test, you can find out.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 18 February 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

What evidences do you use to test the reality of a wall Or do you just accept its existence in faith?
Now if those evidences are satisfactory to test the solidity and reality of a wall, why are they not adequate to test the solidity and reality of an angel or a god?

Do you KNOW you can't walk through a wall, or are you just taking that as an article of faith/belief?

If you can know it, then you can also, using the same evidences, know that angels and god are as real as a wall (or insubstantial hallucinations which you can walk straight through) Either way, by using evidences to test, you can find out.

Your waffling again ,just post your objective concrete verifiable  evidence about God .I have told you to forget the walls and angels


fullywired

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 18 February 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Your waffling again ,just post your objective concrete verifiable  evidence about God .I have told you to forget the walls and angels


fullywired

You would like me to forget them because they illustrate the proofs I am offering. You either will not or can not see this. The objective concrete verifiable evidence of an angel's existence, for any individual, is exactly the same as for a wall .

I use the same evidences to establish the reality of an angel or god, as I do to establish the reality of a wall  eg is it solid, does it impede my progress, will it hurt me if i run into it etc. Can I touch it and see it, and can others see it and touch it.
In a dream or hallucination i can walk through a wall and it exists only inmy mind No one else can see it. In the real world where the wall has independent, objective existence, I can not walk throguh it and others can see it as i do. This is objective, verifiable, concrete EVIDENCE of its  solidity and reality.  It is exactly the same for an angel or for god.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 20 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

You would like me to forget them because they illustrate the proofs I am offering. You either will not or can not see this. The objective concrete verifiable evidence of an angel's existence, for any individual, is exactly the same as for a wall .

I use the same evidences to establish the reality of an angel or god, as I do to establish the reality of a wall  eg is it solid, does it impede my progress, will it hurt me if i run into it etc. Can I touch it and see it, and can others see it and touch it.
In a dream or hallucination i can walk through a wall and it exists only inmy mind No one else can see it. In the real world where the wall has independent, objective existence, I can not walk throguh it and others can see it as i do. This is objective, verifiable, concrete EVIDENCE of its  solidity and reality.  It is exactly the same for an angel or for god.

I think you must be a frustrated bricklayer your obsession with brick walls is weird.,I don't think you know what proof is nor evidence, neither of which you have provided but then i can't really ask you to provide what doesn't exsist

fullywired

[traveler27]

There can be as many different meanings as there are people.  Perhaps all meanings are correct?  Throught time my meaning changes.

Today, for now, "to make good".

[IamsSon]

fullywired, on 20 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I think you must be a frustrated bricklayer your obsession with brick walls is weird.,I don't think you know what proof is nor evidence, neither of which you have provided but then i can't really ask you to provide what doesn't exsist

fullywired

What would you consider proof/evidence?

[Frank Merton]

If we are to have a purpose in our existence, the presupposition is that the universe itself has a purpose and our purpose is in some small way to help the universe along.  So what is the purpose of the universe?

[fullywired]

IamsSon, on 20 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

What would you consider proof/evidence?

Objective concrete verifiable  evidence

   fullywired

[IamsSon]

fullywired, on 20 February 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Objective concrete verifiable  evidence

   fullywired

Such as?