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Taxing the Rich


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#196    Yamato

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:37 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 19 December 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Theres a helluva lot of people that agree with you.
I hope you're right about that, but when looking at what all this bipartisanship has done to us, I'm not convinced.

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#197    AsteroidX

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:54 AM

Its a time of tribulation in America right now. Things WILL be different when the dust settles. The only thing we have right now going for us is networking and reaching out to have our greivances heard. If you have not read the Declaration of Indepence deeply and the Constitution which spells out our civil liberties that cannot be infringed upon and reflect upon if you feel you have been oppressed. Have you been heard trying to air your greivances. These questions are answered in that document. I know we come with different dogs in this fight but I do live in an impoverished state so I came here. I cannot be taxed because I have nothing left that can taxed.

A change of guard may be the only answer if our government cannot be reasonable and just with its people. Thankfully our forfathers were smart enough to leave that option and spelled out exactly what the types of greivances unheard would make such a drastic change a reasonable change.

They are not almighty and cannot be Tyrranical in there rule. The government is suppose to be for the people. I dont feel it is anymore.

I dont want to berate with constitution mumbo jumbo but I am really only saying if you have not read those 2 documents deeply lately then perhaps it is time that you do so again. You might find heart in what our forfathers left for us in wisdom. It may apply to the argument that I have noticed you are passionate about. And if it does I hope it helps you prevail.


#198    Yamato

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:11 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 19 December 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Its a time of tribulation in America right now. Things WILL be different when the dust settles. The only thing we have right now going for us is networking and reaching out to have our greivances heard. If you have not read the Declaration of Indepence deeply and the Constitution which spells out our civil liberties that cannot be infringed upon and reflect upon if you feel you have been oppressed. Have you been heard trying to air your greivances. These questions are answered in that document. I know we come with different dogs in this fight but I do live in an impoverished state so I came here. I cannot be taxed because I have nothing left that can taxed.

A change of guard may be the only answer if our government cannot be reasonable and just with its people. Thankfully our forfathers were smart enough to leave that option and spelled out exactly what the types of greivances unheard would make such a drastic change a reasonable change.

They are not almighty and cannot be Tyrranical in there rule. The government is suppose to be for the people. I dont feel it is anymore.

I dont want to berate with constitution mumbo jumbo but I am really only saying if you have not read those 2 documents deeply lately then perhaps it is time that you do so again. You might find heart in what our forfathers left for us in wisdom. It may apply to the argument that I have noticed you are passionate about. And if it does I hope it helps you prevail.
I think what you're alluding to is to stay familiar with the Spirit of our highest law, and I couldn't agree more.  I think that knowing what our Founders intended and why they intended it is probably the most important political action we can take as individuals.

I bought Ron Paul's pocket-sized US Constitution as well as his family cookbook during the 2012 campaign, and enjoyed reading both.  ;)

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#199    AsteroidX

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:28 AM

Myself I am tired of watching the errosion of the Constitution. It has weakened us morally, financially, and spiritually along the way. What was prosperity is despair to most now I have seen this even in my lifetime. can you offer any glimmer of light or tidbit of gold that would make me see otherwise ?

Obviously you have been in a very different talk here in finances then I have been in over in 2nd Amendment land. Is there a glimmer of light at the end of this tunnel ?


#200    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

View PostTiggs, on 13 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

It's neither Math nor Physics.
Iím sorry.  I should have said that in the real world, it is about math and physics.

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Firstly - Maximum Entropy would mean a situation where all money would be distributed entirely evenly. No-one would be either rich or poor, because richness or poorness is a relative measure.
And what do you think wealth redistribution does?

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Secondly - the second law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. As there are Central banks that can create money - the financial system isn't closed, and thus - entropy doesn't apply here.
For all practical purposes, the Earth today is a closed system.  You may be able to print more money but the value of each individual unit is worth less.  The total value stays the same.  Those that are producing are getting out stripped by takers and redistribution.

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Thirdly - this is a chart of the US's historic GINI Coefficient - a mathematical index between 0 and 1, with 0 showing total income equality (which would be maximum entropy) and 1 showing total income inequality (a single person getting all the income). You'll note the current direction that it's heading in:
Well, first of all, one person would never have all the wealth in a free market.  The competition would be too great.  Itís that competition that floats all boats.  Next, your chart doesnít show what was going on in the 50s.  You just get the hint that it had to be dropping, more than likely due to the high taxes.  But if you go to the chart on the link you provided, it shows the index in the 50s.  The US index was very stagnant, if not declining.  But also if you notice the trend of the European nations, especially the three notoriously Socialist nations of France, Italy, and Norway are all declining.  And you see all of them coagulating in the same spot, at the verge of austerity.  This is not a chart that you want to be approaching 0 (left alone 25).  Mexico and Brazil would seem to indicate that ideally, you want to be below 60, perhaps 50.  Going back to your chart, the peak of the Reagan boom hit just prior to the 110th Congress coming into power and after that, the economy collapsed.  Now we have a President that wants to redistribute our wealth so that weíre all poor.  We have some time but if enough of Europe drops below 25, the EU will collapse.  A nation just simply cannot hold together with anything less.  By keeping it low, assures that no one else will have the opportunity to rise up.

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#201    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

View Postninjadude, on 13 December 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

but it hasn't
At what point do you consider that thereís a problem?  When the ship begins to list or when the decks are awash?

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not when you can print more it doesn't.
Especially when you *can* print more.  Thatís the problem, you just canít keep printing money.  Youíre aware of what happens when nations over print money?  Itíll take a wagon load of script to buy a loaf of bread.  That is not a healthy economy, but weíre heading that way Ė over the real fiscal cliff.

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because of something passed a 100 years ago? yeah right.
Well, people have been upset over it ever since.  It took 14 years to repeal the 18th.  The last Amendment was proposed in 1789 and wasnít enacted until 1992.  The pendulum will begin to swing back (again) but before then, Iíll bet that someone will try to get the 22nd Amendment repealed.

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And you act as if it has some deep meaning. It does not. You have a problem with definitions of simple terms like arbitrary and socialism.
You just donít understand do you?  This is the time frame Washington uses.  Thatís the deep meaning.  The only problems with definitions are yours.

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so now MATH was different 60 years ago? whew!
Again, your lack of understanding is evident.  The comment had nothing to do with math.

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I had to break to your hard head but they are now as well. This is a proven fact.
More of your ignorance.  It is not a proven fact.  Because of inflation, a dollar then is monetarily more today.  Or todayís money is worth a lot less.  Youíre the one saying that weíre printing more money under fractional banking.  Since the Socialist induced recession any appearance of prosperity, it is just an illusion compared to the prosperity of the 50s or even during the Reagan boom.  Now the Socialists throw this phony fiscal cliff at us to divide and conquer.

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No it left because of business raiders like Bain capital. Just like what happened to Hostess.
Ok fine, letís have it your way.  Why did business raiders like Bain Capital move manufacturing off shore?  Why did Hostess go out of business?

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What spending would that be?
The kind that is spent on Entitlements and welfare, Doh!  With all the raiding Congress has done to things like SS, if you noticed, the US budget is one bank roll.  SS has nothing but IOUs in it.  There is no separation between income and FICA.  This is a prime example that the government should have never gone into the Entitlement business.

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The consevabubble and the wacko world you live in are NOT reality.
The reality I live in has the Constitution as its center piece.  I would expect you to call it wacko.

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#202    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

Getting back to the op.  Raising taxes on the top 2% (those making $250K or more) will only collect between $75B to $80B.  In the ďdealĒ making going on youíre hearing the Socialists are compromising on raising taxes on those making $400K (~ the top Ĺ of 1%) or even those making $1M or more.  So here are the simple, logical questions.  If 2% gives you $80B, what good is reducing that to .5% or less?  That would probably be between $10B and $20B.  What does raising taxes on the top 2% gives us?  That $80B does nothing to help with the deficit or the multi-trillion debt.  So why do it?  What is the reasoning behind doing it?  Is there anyone willing to give a logical, rational, non Socialist propaganda answer?

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#203    questionmark

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Getting back to the op.  Raising taxes on the top 2% (those making $250K or more) will only collect between $75B to $80B.  In the "deal" making going on you're hearing the Socialists are compromising on raising taxes on those making $400K (~ the top ½ of 1%) or even those making $1M or more.  So here are the simple, logical questions.  If 2% gives you $80B, what good is reducing that to .5% or less?  That would probably be between $10B and $20B.  What does raising taxes on the top 2% gives us?  That $80B does nothing to help with the deficit or the multi-trillion debt.  So why do it?  What is the reasoning behind doing it?  Is there anyone willing to give a logical, rational, non Socialist propaganda answer?

So those whose taxes must also be risen, namely the middle class, to pay for the mess the politicians have gotten us into, can see that it is not only them who get screwed every time having no real influence in Washington.

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#204    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 19 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

So those whose taxes must also be risen, namely the middle class, to pay for the mess the politicians have gotten us into, can see that it is not only them who get screwed every time having no real influence in Washington.
That is usually what happens, but that doesnít answer the question.  How much of the mess the politicians (both sides of the isle) got us into will the $80B get us out of?

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#205    questionmark

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

That is usually what happens, but that doesn't answer the question.  How much of the mess the politicians (both sides of the isle) got us into will the $80B get us out of?

Not much, but raise your aim to $800 billion that have to raised to just balance the budget.

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#206    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 19 December 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Not much, but raise your aim to $800 billion that have to raised to just balance the budget.
In other words, $80B will do squat, so why even try to levy them?  Well, thatís been my point.  In order to get that $800B from the top 2%, you would need to raise the rate by 50% putting the highest tax bracket at 85%.  That is hardly fair.  This is not the 1950s, and you would see many of our wealthy leave these shores (along with jobs), because this isnít the 1950s.

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#207    F3SS

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:18 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 19 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:



So those whose taxes must also be risen, namely the middle class, to pay for the mess the politicians have gotten us into, can see that it is not only them who get screwed every time having no real influence in Washington.
So just screw somebody else to make others feel better?! That's terrible. I can understand the feel good factor in that but it's crap and I'm surprised any reasonable person would support that, even you Q, because its ineffective towards the real problems. Everybody should be standing up to tell the elected that they aren't there to play games with people's emotions. They caused the problem, they've screwed the middle class a lot and their solution is to screw the rich to make the middle feel better all while never accomplishing a damn thing. Seriously, they've got half the country thinking that's the way to go. Something's wrong.

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#208    DieChecker

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:08 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

What does raising taxes on the top 2% gives us?  That $80B does nothing to help with the deficit or the multi-trillion debt.  So why do it?  What is the reasoning behind doing it?  Is there anyone willing to give a logical, rational, non Socialist propaganda answer?
Like I posted in one of these threads... it will quickly get those who are super rich to Move somewhere where the expense is less. Barbados, Bahamas, Costa Rica, Panama.... They simply take their money and go establish a residence elsewhere, but then continue to run their businesses remotely. Or through "Business Trips" that last months at a time. There are ways around these things...

It is like cigarettes... there is a tax on cigs to pay for anti-cig programs, but as cig use decreases, the tax has gone higher and higher, because the anti-cig programs do not cut back at the same rate. Thus causing the expense of cigs to go up and causing more people to quit. Thus causing the tax to have to be raised... The same could happen with wealth. Tax the rich so that many go elsewhere, then escalate the tax to keep Revenue level, which forces more of the rich to leave. Which causes the tax to be escalated again...

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#209    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:48 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Getting back to the op.  Raising taxes on the top 2% (those making $250K or more) will only collect between $75B to $80B.  In the "deal" making going on you're hearing the Socialists are compromising on raising taxes on those making $400K (~ the top ½ of 1%) or even those making $1M or more.  So here are the simple, logical questions.  If 2% gives you $80B, what good is reducing that to .5% or less?  That would probably be between $10B and $20B.  What does raising taxes on the top 2% gives us?  That $80B does nothing to help with the deficit or the multi-trillion debt.  So why do it?  What is the reasoning behind doing it?  Is there anyone willing to give a logical, rational, non Socialist propaganda answer?

RavenHawk you will never get an logical answer to that question simply because it does not exist. There is not one liberal that can give an answer to the simply question "How can raising taxes on anybody help the economy?". Ive asked the question myself several times on other threads and all I get is the sound of crickets. their utter lack of understanding the economy is evident when they preach how much damage Reaganomics did to this country.?!
even though america was living high on the hog for 2 decades because of it they still say he had it wrong. lowering taxes bad. getting people to work for a living bad. raising taxes good. putting everbody on welfare good.?

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#210    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:53 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 20 December 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Like I posted in one of these threads... it will quickly get those who are super rich to Move somewhere where the expense is less. Barbados, Bahamas, Costa Rica, Panama.... They simply take their money and go establish a residence elsewhere, but then continue to run their businesses remotely. Or through "Business Trips" that last months at a time. There are ways around these things...

It is like cigarettes... there is a tax on cigs to pay for anti-cig programs, but as cig use decreases, the tax has gone higher and higher, because the anti-cig programs do not cut back at the same rate. Thus causing the expense of cigs to go up and causing more people to quit. Thus causing the tax to have to be raised... The same could happen with wealth. Tax the rich so that many go elsewhere, then escalate the tax to keep Revenue level, which forces more of the rich to leave. Which causes the tax to be escalated again...

what is going to happen when everbody stops smoking? how is the goverment going to get the revenue for the anti-cig campaign? because you know just because there isn't a problem doesn't mean the goverment won't make it in to one.

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread" --Thomas Jefferson(1821)

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session"--Mark Twain(1866)

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson(1800)




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