Why did Jesus need to die for our sins?

[Bill Zabub]

If the Christian God is all knowing and all powerful, why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to give everyone absolution from original sin? Couldn't God just forgive everyone in a big blanket amnesty? It seems as though there was some higher authority than God that had to be satisfied, some sort of cosmic yin/yang that had to be balanced. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Ashley-Star*Child]

No, there's no higher authority than God, but I have often asked myself when seeing movies about/crucifixes ect, WHY? Why did God want His son to die such a horrible death.

[RougeRat]

Of course the obvious answer is so we can be forgiven for our sins...but why this way? I don't understand it much myself and I know there are those who won't dare question the Lord, but I really think there had to be some more sensical way than making a man die violently.

[Crimson_Magician_7]

Christ was the same as all the other messiah gods in history, sacrificing himself to remove what dark stain there was on his/her people. The lesson of self-sacrifice and working for the good of others are the lessons to be taken from the messiah gods.

Simple fact.

[Irish]

I will try and give you the Readers Digest version.

Man (Adam) decided that he loved his woman (Eve) more than he loved the company of the Creator. (The original sin) and was cast out (Eden). Eve was deceived by a lie (serpent) but Adam fearing her loss, freely chose to break the one law God had given them. The result was a permanent separation from God.

Atonement from that point was totally under the law for Adam and his seed (us) as was given to the Jews.(Moses).

Now man was under law instead of grace. And because mankind could not truly comprehend the letter of the law nor understand the results of his flaws/sins against God. A legal defense was needed (a loophole if you like). Jesus was later that defense. And qualified by the following reasons.

1. He was not of the seed of Adam. (virgin birth)

2. He was both wholly human (physically) and divine (spirituauly).

3. He was without sin (flaw) and understood the laws of God.

Jesus did not come to take away from Gods law but to fulfill it. In essence He became the atonement/sacrifice to fulfill the letter of the law. The loophole gave us the defense to justify our existence before our creator.

One would owe a dept of gratitude toward the lawyer for pleading our case without charge. So in this way it would not be totally free. However it is, or should be our natural response to grace.

Mans sees the law in a different light than his Creator. We tend look at sin/ wrong doings as gradients. One sin is greater than another. But God sees all sin as equally abhorrent and therefore not acceptable in His house (heaven). Just as we have the right to tell people that comes into our house to remove their shoes first. It is not a question as to whether we agree with the rules. If your house guest refused to remove his shoes and stood at your door arguing the point you would be inclined to close the door in his face.

The result would be much the same, a separation between visitor and guest. That separation between man and God is what we refer to as hell.

Irish

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Man (Adam) decided that he loved his woman (Eve) more than he loved the company of the Creator. (The original sin) and was cast out (Eden).

That is absolutely and entirely not true. Where in the hell did you get that from? God MADE Eve as a companion for Adam and it did not diminish his affection for God. Furthermore there is no 'original sin' it was entirely invented by Augustine. The sin the had was disobedience, nothing more.

[Irish]

That is absolutely and entirely not true. Where in the hell did you get that from? God MADE Eve as a companion for Adam and it did not diminish his affection for God. Furthermore there is no 'original sin' it was entirely invented by Augustine. The sin the had was disobedience, nothing more.

Ashley, just because you do not except the teaching of original sin does not negate it in any way, so we shall agree to disagree.

As for Eve it is clear in scripture that she was deceived by the lies of the serpent in the garden. Were as Adam made a conscious choice to partake of the forbidden fruit (knowledge) along with her. And in doing so he chose his relationship with Eve over that of God.

This was a mistake (first sin=Original sin) and against the one law that was given them, and he freely chose to disobey because Eve had already made that mistake under deception. I am concluding that he did this out of love, unless you can show me some other motive behind his action.

Irish

[Ashley-Star*Child]

That doesn't necessarily mean he loved her more than God.

[Irish]

That doesn't necessarily mean he loved her more than God.

Agreed, He loved her as a companion and as a woman, I love my wife but not in the same way I love God

But we all have a choice to chose one type of love over anouther.

Irish

[Bee Eff]

If the Christian God is all knowing and all powerful, why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to give everyone absolution from original sin? Couldn't God just forgive everyone in a big blanket amnesty? It seems as though there was some higher authority than God that had to be satisfied, some sort of cosmic yin/yang that had to be balanced. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

The Mormon answer, given that we are Christian regardless of other's attempts to deny such because we do not believe as they do:

The Book of Mormon, Alma 42

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.

12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.

28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.

30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.

31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.

[Ken1Burton]

God has to deal with many different aspects. One of them being a way a Human can conceive that no matter how bad they has been, A way has been provided to start anew, and all what has been is wiped clean.

Original sin is not Scriptural Truth, It violated God’s law:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Sin does not pass down to the Children, And this also shows Jesus could not die for my sins, He had to take them as His Own sins, and Die a Sinner at Golgotha. They had to belong to Him.

When the day of the Cross starts out, A Spotless lamb of God tells God, “Thy will be done.” And God pours out His Spirit (Jesus) upon all flesh. We then all together become as an unclean thing. All as one, All guilty because of sin, No innocent Babies, No innocent as unable to reason.

Then all spiritually dead because of sin. The Wicked is turned into hell, or all dead in Christ or as in hell, Then “With His stripes we are healed.” or Spiritually resurrected from the Dead. This ends past and present sins then the day of the Cross.

Here Jesus is likened to a Woman, “Come out of Her My people, that you be not partakers of Her sins.” As Jesus took sins and healed us, we are God’s people, no longer separated from Him by our sins.

Then for the Overspreading of Abomination (all future sins on Christ, or while we were yet sinners, or because we would sin again, Christ dies for us) He is made Desolate or has to die a Sinner. This gets Him the Keys to death and hell. He had by His choice made the Tree Evil so He could get into hell and be there the third day to fulfill Scripture and get them out. He being as the Street.

That is why He told the Disciples, “Where I go, You can not come.” For with all future sins upon Himself as if He was the One who would do them. Sin ended as Daniel 9:24 shows, No one can go to hell anymore, For Jesus was the last one in, Last person who could die a sinner with Future sins, and taking everyone out with Him on the third day, Hell ceased to exist and be a place anyone could ever follow into there.

Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

So there really was no forgiveness of sins, Jesus took them all as His own, and was punished in full.

Showing mankind how much Jesus loves us. And when this is seen, Those who are forgiven more, will loveth more.

Ken

[hyuugaNeji]

"as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous

[Mainpoint]

If the Christian God is all knowing and all powerful, why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to give everyone absolution from original sin? Couldn't God just forgive everyone in a big blanket amnesty? It seems as though there was some higher authority than God that had to be satisfied, some sort of cosmic yin/yang that had to be balanced. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I am not a christian and i dont believe Jesus died on the cross. It just doesnt make any sense.

Jesus was a pious human physically and spiritualy.

He was a human that amplifies his greatness.

So he really suffered all the torment and persection the jews and romans put him through.

Someone whom God would have made one of His chosen ones and one of his dear ones would not be allowed this fate of crucifixtion!

This had never happened before not to Moses not to Noah not to Adam.

Jesus was lifted to the Heavens when he was still in this 20s.

HE has a bigger message now when he will desend back to earth in the future.

He will once again help the persecuted.

He will again spreads Gods true message which would have been distorted with time!

[hyuugaNeji]

Mainpoint what you believe and what is writen are two different things.

Moses and Noah and adam can not save us from sin for they were also sinners........Jesus took it upon himself to die for us because he was without sin and blemish......all the sacrificing took place in the OT was pointing to the cross "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

again "even as the son of man came not to be ministered unt, but to ministerand to give his life as a ransomfor many" matthew 20:28

why christ alone could die for us..simple ......1 Peter 1:18,19 "Forasmuch as ye know that we were NOT redeemed with orruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious bloo of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

[Irish]

"as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous

I like that ,very wise, is it a quote or your words

[Odd Christian]

Adam disobeyed GOD, this allowed sin, and its result death (in all it's forms) to take hold. when GOD called to adam and eve, and they said they were hiding because they were naked and ashamed, GOD asked them who told you you are naked? you ate from the tree i told you not to didn't you?. and instead of admiting his disobedience, and asking forgiveness,( i believe had adam done this, history would be very different) he immediately blamed not just eve, but GOD for it, by saying the woman that YOU gave me, gave me the fruit to eat. ( i would like to point out, as alot of people blame women for sin, but it was not until ADAM ate the fruit, that they realized they were naked)

this disobedience brought upon man the same punishment reserved for the angels that fell, the only thing that would attone for sin was a life. so began the sacrafice, which only covered sin. until the time was right to allow for the SON OF MAN(jesus said he was that son of man refered to by enoch, since jesus quoted enoch, i have no problem with the book which can be gotten along with many other interesting works here- http://www.sacred-texts.com/, this makes alot of things a little more clear, such as Jesus saying that he does nothing of himself but only what he saw his father do, as in the book of enoch, enoch saw the saw the son of man walking around with the "Lord of spirits" observing, and in a vision of the judgement saw the saon of man, sit upon th ethrone of judgement.) to come into the world. by his suffering and death, he fulfilled the requirement of the penalty for sin. the father gave to him all athority to judge and pardon, because he was tempted the same as we, yet without sin, when we stand before him on judgement day, we will not be able to say "but you don't know what it is like" because He does know.

the book of revelation refers to him as "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and john the baptist on seeing him, proclaimed behold the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world.

GOD is holy and just, and that demands punishment for those who sin, but he is also loving and merciful, by Jesus taking our place, justice and holiness were satisfied, and mercy was given free reign. but the simple answer is in the bible itself,- GOD showed HIS love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us .

and of course, the most well known verse john 3:16

[Skeptic5]

If the Christian God is all knowing and all powerful, why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to give everyone absolution from original sin? Couldn't God just forgive everyone in a big blanket amnesty? It seems as though there was some higher authority than God that had to be satisfied, some sort of cosmic yin/yang that had to be balanced. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Well, the answer with no evidence is that Jesus was part of an invisible man in the sky's plan.

The answer with lots of evidence is that Jesus was a schizophrenic just like thousands of other people in history who also died for their delusional belief that they were a prophet of some sort.

[Cadetak]

Theres one thing I don't get about the whole dieing foe man's sin thing. Jesus had to sacrifice himself so God would free us of our sin, why did God require the sacrifice? Why not just free us of our sins with a snap of his fingers?

Considering that Jesus and God are the same person and God knows everything what was the point? God sacrificed himself to himself to free man from original sin? Unneccesesary considered he is an all powerful god.

I'm not big on the whole Trinity thing so even if God and Jesus where not exactly the same person God knew that Jesus would do what he did...or even created him for that sole purpose.

Jesus' spiritual career is defined by his sacrifice but the whole story doesn't make much sense. The only conclusion I can come to is that God never intended for Jesus sacrifice or even predicted it. God may have intended his son to have only bin a prophet and a teacher. God never intended to free us from original sin but the sacrifice changed his mind.

The whole sacrifice seems pointless and was only intended to be a big show considering that God and Jesus are soposidly the same person and God knows all....unless like I said above...God didn't fully know what was going on.

[seanph]

If the Christian God is all knowing and all powerful, why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to give everyone absolution from original sin? Couldn't God just forgive everyone in a big blanket amnesty? It seems as though there was some higher authority than God that had to be satisfied, some sort of cosmic yin/yang that had to be balanced. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Well, from a historical perspective, there is little in terms of explicit Christology in the Synoptics. In Jesus' self-understanding? Most scholars agree that claims of divinity were post-Easter attributions. Now, that's not to say Jesus--or his followers--didn't think of him as Messiah. Difficult to say. Of course, it's important to remember that the Jewish messiah was not to be divine.

... On the other hand, Jesus’ messianic claims within the gospels can no longer be confidently ascribed to him, for they may be put into his mouth as expressions of the convictions of the early church...--The Cambridge Companion to Jesus, R.W.L. Moberly, p., 185

God? The ultimate sin-sacrafice? No! These are Pauline inventions--one, I think, that would have shocked Jesus to no end.

"All this is as far from today's Christianity as it was from the Judaism of Jesus' day. Christians all too often simply venerate the "Lord Jesus Christ" as the "Son of God" and let it go at that. But Jesus himself made no claim to lofty titles or even to divinity. Indeed, to him, a devout Jew, claiming to be God would have seemed blasphemous! He claimed "only" that God spoke and acted through him."--The Gospel of Jesus, Robinson, James, M. (Director of the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity and Professor Emeritus at The Claremont Graduate School) p. 11

Sean

[Ken1Burton]

Cadetak47

OK, Say God just said mankind sins are forgiven. There is a major problem. The Prophecies are what show there is a God by His Ability to predict in detail the Events of one day in time, Which would happen over 400 years after the Messages of the Prophets of the old Testament stopped.

It is His ability to foretell us of these prophecies, and have Jesus fulfill them, even to the Cross that shows there is a God, and that Jesus is whom He sent.. That is what made the Difference between the other Religions and Christianity, It will be with the Jewish Nation more so in 22 more years.

The Events of Christ the day of the Cross is so different, And with hundreds of Prophecies all being fulfilled the day of the Cross. Shows that which we can not see but have been told by Scripture is true.

The Concept of hell is not new. How would we know He got them out of hell? That is what the Death on the Cross was all about, Dying a sinner to get the keys to death and hell. And that was with Future sins, and Past and present sins then ended “With His stripes we are healed.”

How would we know (Church still does not) that the Levitical Covenant ended the day of the Cross? How would we know of the Resurrection part we can see, and the rest raised with Jesus as God had foretold?

That is part of the Jots and Tittles, God fulfilling the prophecies in detail, So all of what God said, the seen and the Unseen can be trusted to be true.

Peter was cursing when he denied Jesus the third time.

Ecclesiastes 10:20 Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.

Even the Rooster foretold a thousand years earlier knew his part. And it shows Peter was curing Jesus in his thoughts. Not just using profanity.

And it showed the Love Jesus has for mankind.

Ken

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Yes it's true Jesus is referenced many times in Enoch and a passage of it is quoted by Jude in the NT. Oddly it says nothing of him dying or being sacrificed for sins. It says he will be a judge.

The answer with lots of evidence is that Jesus was a schizophrenic just like thousands of other people in history who also died for their delusional belief that they were a prophet of some sort.

There's always got to be one idiot on the these threads.

About Adam and Eve, they disobeyed because they wanted to be gods as promised by the serpent. It wasn't some grand act of love for Eve on Adam's part more than God. They evidently loved God, both of them, but disobeyed him being seduced by the idea of becoming gods. On top of that God knew what was going to happen becuse he said 'I will bring death through Eve' when he made her.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Ashley-Star*Child

[Shadow_Hill]

If God created us all and he is all powerful, he rules the heavens and the earth, and God's laws are his own, then there would be absolutely nothing to stop him from forgiving mankind without the need for a sacrifice. "I forgive you" he could say, "now do better next time".

Mankind needed a saviour, so he created one.

[Mainpoint]

WE are stil resposible for our sins

Jesus did not die nor was he crucified.

He was forwarded in time by God.

He will reappear in the future when again he will help the poor and needy

He will again raise his voice against the oppressors of the opressed.

WE shall witness him again

The question is what will children of rome and jews do when he reappears.

Will they try to crucify him again??????

[seanph]

About Adam and Eve, they disobeyed because they wanted to be gods as promised by the serpent. It wasn't some grand act of love for Eve on Adam's part more than God. They evidently loved God, both of them, but disobeyed him being seduced by the idea of becoming gods.

Remember that god did not give AE the knowledge of right and wrong until after they had eaten from the tree. He could have told them not to do something until the cows came home, and they wouldn't have understood. Hardly fair.

Sean

[Cadetak]

Cadetak47

OK, Say God just said mankind sins are forgiven. There is a major problem. The Prophecies are what show there is a God by His Ability to predict in detail the Events of one day in time, Which would happen over 400 years after the Messages of the Prophets of the old Testament stopped.

It is His ability to foretell us of these prophecies, and have Jesus fulfill them, even to the Cross that shows there is a God, and that Jesus is whom He sent.. That is what made the Difference between the other Religions and Christianity, It will be with the Jewish Nation more so in 22 more years.

The Events of Christ the day of the Cross is so different, And with hundreds of Prophecies all being fulfilled the day of the Cross. Shows that which we can not see but have been told by Scripture is true.

The Concept of hell is not new. How would we know He got them out of hell? That is what the Death on the Cross was all about, Dying a sinner to get the keys to death and hell. And that was with Future sins, and Past and present sins then ended “With His stripes we are healed.”

How would we know (Church still does not) that the Levitical Covenant ended the day of the Cross? How would we know of the Resurrection part we can see, and the rest raised with Jesus as God had foretold?

That is part of the Jots and Tittles, God fulfilling the prophecies in detail, So all of what God said, the seen and the Unseen can be trusted to be true.

Peter was cursing when he denied Jesus the third time.

Ecclesiastes 10:20 Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.

Even the Rooster foretold a thousand years earlier knew his part. And it shows Peter was curing Jesus in his thoughts. Not just using profanity.

And it showed the Love Jesus has for mankind.

Ken

So what you are saying is that the whole point of Jesus' sacrifice was to show us that God exists and to fulfill a prophecy? Doesn't really answer the question of why it took so long...God could have freed us of our sins at any time. Since God is soposidly all knowing, powerful, etc, etc. he always intended to free us from original sin or he would never have had created Jesus. So if God always had this plan why wait so long? Just so he can fulfill a prophecy? COnsidering that God created the prophecies he could have prophecised any given date.

If God wanted to prove to the world that he was real there are many better ways to do it...like spell out the words "I am real" in the clouds.

The whole sacrifice story would make a lot more sense if God wasn't all powerful, all knowing, all merciful, etc.