332 replies to this topic

[orangepeaceful79]

Maestro, on 21 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Well, without getting into it too much, no one really believed the world was flat. Sailors have known for thousands of years that the earth is not flat. Most people, actually, knew that. 12.2 miles is the horizon, and sailors would notice the mast of ships being visible although the boat wasn't any longer, for a very long time. In essence, the whole, "people thought the earth was flat" thing is a phallacy.

Also, I have used, and continue to use Ouija boards fairly regularly as a party game, and to show people how they don't work. Just for s&g, try blindfolding someone and asking them to use it (hint: it all comes out as gibberish). I have never in all my years had one negative experience with a Ouija board, nor have any of the people I have used one with.

While I agree that science is not some oracle that has the answers to everything, it is the best tool we as human beings have for understanding causality.

The problem, as it were, with trying to explain something for which no evidence exists, by using evidentiary terms, is that you have to find external validation for something that is by and large an internally held belief. Or to be less prosaic, trying to explain something which has no physical prescence, by using terms which describe the physical world, is, by definition, impossible. To say that demons are energy beings that feed off of energy, but some type of unknown energy that can neither been seen or measured, falls into the realm of myth, not fact.

Nice.

[None of the above]

Finguz, on 29 June 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

Nobody knows because nobody has ever seen one, because they only exist in tall tales and other assorted works of fiction.

My thoughts exacty.

Demons: A label we have invented for the personification of our own evil excesses.

[Etu Malku]

Finguz, on 29 June 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

Nobody knows because nobody has ever seen one, because they only exist in tall tales and other assorted works of fiction.

This is not entirely true. The visual is only 1/5th of our senses, and being that everything we see now is an illusion anyway it stands to reason that "not seeing a demon" does NOT discount its reality, which I might add is subjective in the first place.

Now, I certainly don't believe that dæmons exist in some hellish world, or on a limb of some Qliphothic Tree of Daath, but I do know from experience that they are archetypal images deep in our unconsciousness and can be brought to the surface conscious in many forms including sight (if one is rendered that delusional and trance induced).

The problem is that most of us associate a dæmon with the Christian idea of one, which will never occur and never has. When we think deeper as to what this "thought-form" truly is, we then can begin to experience it on higher levels of consciousness.

[SSilhouette]

My mistake.  I didn't clarify that "important" people were the ones insisting the world was flat.  Of course sailors noticed bends and anomolies in the horizon.  It's just that they didn't count.  Just like people whose furniture is dancing around their apartment by itself "don't count"...because you know...they're crazy...even though other visitors also see the same thing.  Shared hallucination?  Now THAT is a fantastic concept in itself.  I find it easier to believe we simply just don't know all there is to know.

[stevemagegod]

Demons are just Negative Entitys

[orangepeaceful79]

SSilhouette, on 22 August 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

  I find it easier to believe we simply just don't know all there is to know.

The fact that we don't know everything doesn't give us liscense to claim that all manner of ridiculous things are possible just because we don't know about them.  The lack of evidence itself cannot be evidence for the unknown.

[Seeker79]

Dont jump go the conclusion that demons are mere fantasy. They are not. Certainly reigouse attributes to them are. People do see things that they classify as demonic. Let's take sleep paralysis hullucinstions as an example. Many people see the same kinds of things. In fact  they fall into a handfull of category's.

To keep parroting the words "Myth" and "fantasy" is not nearly close to the truth. There are perfectly good reasons for normal people to believe in demons.  And yes they have seen and even felt them. Now..... As to the nature of these "demons" I don't think is anything demonic at all.

[SSilhouette]

Quote

The fact that we don't know everything doesn't give us liscense to claim that all manner of ridiculous things are possible just because we don't know about them.  The lack of evidence itself cannot be evidence for the unknown.

That's assuming there is a lack of evidence.  Have you watched the research being done on the paranormal recently?  IR cameras, full spectrum cameras that see more than we do are coming up with human forms moving that have no explanation, at sites where dozens, if not hundreds of people are corroborating sightings of wraiths and all manner of inexplicable activity.  That's why I made the comment about shared-hallucination.  I beat you to the only other excuse you could come up with for credible eyewitness corroboration.  You realize this is how things are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in court.  Simply announcing "there is no evidence" while a ton of it sits in the jury's lap is not going to win the case for you.

Like I said, I don't worry about believing or not believing.  I suspend both and walk between the two to assist those suffering from these "inexplicable but real" occurances.

[OrdinaryClay]

Maestro, on 21 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Well, without getting into it too much, no one really believed the world was flat. Sailors have known for thousands of years that the earth is not flat. Most people, actually, knew that. 12.2 miles is the horizon, and sailors would notice the mast of ships being visible although the boat wasn't any longer, for a very long time. In essence, the whole, "people thought the earth was flat" thing is a phallacy.

Also, I have used, and continue to use Ouija boards fairly regularly as a party game, and to show people how they don't work. Just for s&g, try blindfolding someone and asking them to use it (hint: it all comes out as gibberish). I have never in all my years had one negative experience with a Ouija board, nor have any of the people I have used one with.

While I agree that science is not some oracle that has the answers to everything, it is the best tool we as human beings have for understanding causality.

The problem, as it were, with trying to explain something for which no evidence exists, by using evidentiary terms, is that you have to find external validation for something that is by and large an internally held belief. Or to be less prosaic, trying to explain something which has no physical prescence, by using terms which describe the physical world, is, by definition, impossible. To say that demons are energy beings that feed off of energy, but some type of unknown energy that can neither been seen or measured, falls into the realm of myth, not fact.

Science is the only mechanism we have to establish causality empirically. It is wrong to use this fact to conclude that causality can not be established any other way. A free agent can cause something to happen but foil any empirical attempt to determine it. This is why researchers use double blind (google it) methods in research.

Evidence does exist with regard to divination - including boards. It is not empirical evidence, though. It is testimonial. Properly vetted testimony is used today in legal systems, and has been through out human history. It is agreed by highly intelligent people that the truth can be established using testimony.

The error you commit is that you assume, like all Internet skeptics, that empirical evidence is the only only evidence, which is trivially un-true.

[OrdinaryClay]

orangepeaceful79, on 22 August 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

The fact that we don't know everything doesn't give us liscense to claim that all manner of ridiculous things are possible just because we don't know about them.  The lack of evidence itself cannot be evidence for the unknown.

And just because we know something through science does not give us license to conclude the supernatural does not exist.

[OrdinaryClay]

Seeker79, on 22 August 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Dont jump go the conclusion that demons are mere fantasy. They are not. Certainly reigouse attributes to them are. People do see things that they classify as demonic. Let's take sleep paralysis hullucinstions as an example. Many people see the same kinds of things. In fact  they fall into a handfull of category's.

To keep parroting the words "Myth" and "fantasy" is not nearly close to the truth. There are perfectly good reasons for normal people to believe in demons.  And yes they have seen and even felt them. Now..... As to the nature of these "demons" I don't think is anything demonic at all.

Your posts are always vague. What do you believe the demonic is?

[SSilhouette]

But there is empirical evidence: photography and sound recordings.  Even variables in temperature with sudden drastic drops or rises accompanying sights or sounds of a transparent or disembodied voice.  That means something is happening to energy.  Thermal energy.  But energy is energy and apparently these forms of awareness without solid bodies are able to manipulate it somehow.  And of course, matter is energy.  We really understand very little of our world when we think we understand so much.  And perhaps things must always stay that way.  If we knew too much, we'd have to be killed for our own good..lol..  I'm saying that sort of half in jest because there is a grain of truth to it.

Just trust me.

[OrdinaryClay]

SSilhouette, on 22 August 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

But there is empirical evidence: photography and sound recordings.  Even variables in temperature with sudden drastic drops or rises accompanying sights or sounds of a transparent or disembodied voice.  That means something is happening to energy.  Thermal energy.  But energy is energy and apparently these forms of awareness without solid bodies are able to manipulate it somehow.  And of course, matter is energy.  We really understand very little of our world when we think we understand so much.  And perhaps things must always stay that way.  If we knew too much, we'd have to be killed for our own good..lol..  I'm saying that sort of half in jest because there is a grain of truth to it.

Just trust me.

Actually we understand an enormous amount about energy and matter.

I agree there is observed evidence, but it is not repeatable using the scientific method, which is required to be truly empirical. The entities that manifest supernatural phenomenon have free wills and can choose to foil any experiment they choose. No one can set up a controlled experiment and reproduce, at will, the results of these manifestations.

Combine this with the fact that any digital result can be fabricated and, ultimately, all we have is testimony.

[SSilhouette]

Yes, I suppose.  But to those houses and people afflicted by an infestation, all this is a tangent conversation.  That's why I offered this remedy:

Quote

My $.02

Demons are merely predatory beings who feed on the release of human energy.  This energy is best released through emotional outbursts and/or sustained fear.  As anyone knows, fear can be draining.  So can strife.  So what do we find in homes possessed by demons, or for that matter, people associated *[*more on that below] with them?  Strife and fear.

I think they are just beings who devour energy.  Parasites.  They excell in reading the human mind and playing it like a fiddle to elicit fear and strife.  Then they set the table and feast.  Adolescent people are the most "attractive" to them because adolescents are like ripe fruit: abundant with excess energy and most definitely capable of creating strife in their own lives and the lives of their family members.  The perfect target for the most bounty.

Actual full-blown possessions are quite bombasitic.  * But on an everyday basis, demons follow the footsteps and thoughts of men everywhere they go on a much more subtle scale.  They attach themselves to people through their vulnerabilities.  And they waylay well laid plans by exquisitely subtle coercion at times.  The best description of this I've ever seen is a book called The Screwtape Letters.  It's about a seasoned demon schooling his nephew in the art of snagging human souls through devious influence.

The solution to get rid of them is to starve them out by developing a strong light spiritual stance and to laugh at them in a nonchalant way.  And to mean it.  Create lighthearted chat and jokes about their presence in your life.  Ban together with others affected by them and all have a good giggle at their expense.  It's like pouring water on a fire.  When you realize they are just parasites feeding off of emotional outbursts, it shrinks them down to what they really are.

I should add something more here.  If a possession has been longstanding, the entity will be quite spoiled and lazy.  Like a child who is having its free-cookie supply threatened, it will lash out quite amazingly at first.  That is because having been fed for so long, so well, it is strong, healthy and fat.  This is why most exorcisims fail and the offender comes back.  Intially the light energy used to drive it away dissipates as the family goes back to old ruts.  It is up to the family themselves to develop not just a temporary spirituality, but a permanent one.  Longstanding possessions are difficult because the demon knows everyone's every thought.  This is why you can't just talk the talk.  You have to walk the walk.  You also have to solicit aide from invisible forces of light beings to help you maintain your starvation vigil.  Have the strongest members of your family create a bubble of golden light energy like a globe, surrounding each member of the family, the property, the possessions, friends, pets etc. [because they will attack you through surrogates if they have to].  Do this by simple meditation in a place not in the center of strife.  Maintain this invisible structure through regular meditation.  Over time, your spoiled brat will start to get skinny, and weaker.  Just keep it up and eventually it will go off in search of easier pickin's....

[Seeker79]

OrdinaryClay, on 22 August 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Your posts are always vague. What do you believe the demonic is?

Vague? Really?  I always get acused of being cryptic.... I can't see it. I suppose it comes from well knowing certain things