1360 replies to this topic

[conspiracybeliever]

We don't need nuts like this running around playing cop, judge and jury. The crime in this country is due to an out of control judicial system. This is what happens when the TV is telling people that the crime is due to the poor being stupid and lazy and jealous because some have more than others when it is actually because of a system that is out of control and creating desperate people for the purpose of putting money into the pockets of big corporations. This is a child making a candy run. How would you feel if it was yours?

[FLOMBIE]

Rafterman, on 20 March 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm assuming you haven't looked up the full statistics because if you had, you wouldn't make such inane comments.

There is no statistic that proves that general gun ownership makes a society safer. In fact, I live in a country where gun ownership is strictly regulate, and the general crime rate is immensely lower than in the US. And if you look at crimes involving guns, or even killings, the numbers differ even more.

I admit that my comment was a bit "inane" because of the sarcasm I used, but I just wanted to point out that general gun-ownership creates a lot of misery. I am glad the neighborhood watches over here do not carry guns.

[sam12six]

I've read a ton of articles on this subject in an effort to get as complete a picture of what happened as possible. From all the reading, here's roughly what happened:

Kid comes walking back from the store.
Guy "patrolling" the neighborhood spots him and calls the cops to report a suspicious person.
Guy follows the kid through the neighborhood in his van while on the phone with cops.
They tell him not to follow the guy because there's a patrol car on the way (Actually, in his statement he said he got out of the van to check the road sign so he could give directions to the police - in his neighborhood that he patrols constantly.)

For what happened next, we only have his word, but according to Zimmerman, the kid started calling him names and otherwise verbally abusing him and he walked up to nicely explain why he had been following him. When he did so, the kid jumped him.

Next, several neighbors call 911 reporting the two men fighting. On one of the calls, you can here someone yelling for help followed by <BOOM!> and silence.

In my opinion from the limited information that's public, at the very very least, this guy should be charged with manslaughter. Even if he had no intention of hurting the kid and the kid actually attacked him, his decision to follow and approach the kid while carrying a pistol was criminally negligent and created the situation in the first place. As far as the "stand your ground" law, in this case it should be on the side of the person who had a stranger follow him around and come after him. If voice analysis of the 911 call determines that he shot a person who was standing there calling for help, he should be charged with murder.

In addition to the guy being charged the cops should be absolutely raked over the coals for their failure to investigate. In what world does one person shoot another then tell the cops it was self defense and they just take his word for it? The shooter in this case told cops he was the one screaming for help and when neighbors giving their statements said, "...then the kid started screaming for help...", the cops actually told them, "No, it was Zimmerman screaming."

At the very least, they suck at their job.

All that said, here's the things I'm really hating about all the stories and comments following them:

The stories almost universally paint it as "White man guns down unarmed black kid". Ignoring the debate over whether Zimmerman is actually white, what the hell difference does it make what color they are? The story is the cops failed to do their job, not that some guy didn't like black people.

The stories also generally run a picture of the kid wearing a football uniform where he appears to be about 12. This leads to comments like "He shot a defenseless child!!" during discussions. The guy was 17 years old and 6'3". According to the witnesses, he was definitely winning the fight with Zimmerman. Hardly a child.

The last big annoyance was that he gets called "Neighborhood watch volunteer" or in this case, "Neighborhood watch captain". Here's the thing: that neighborhood does not have a neighborhood watch. Zimmerman was a wannabe cop and a neighborhood busybody who had called the cops 50 times in the last year to report "suspicious" things. According to a statement I read from the former president of the Homeowners Association, Zimmerman and a buddy of his were drunken menaces who enjoyed cruising around the neighborhood questioning people at random.

Anyway, I wish people would focus on what happened - One man shot another. The investigation to determine whether and exactly what charges should be brought up was never really done by the cops.

Since public outcry has forced an investigation, I hope justice can prevail in spite of so much evidence being lost due to the crappy lack of an early investigation (evidence like whether the shooter himself was drunk or on drugs when the incident occurred).

[Mantis914]

I was under the impression that neighborhood watch people were only supposed to notify the police if they happen upon legitimate suspicious activity.  I'm with the person that said earlier that they are surprised this person was armed.  In my experience, these types always do come with an attitude when you wander too close to the area they are guarding, even if you are just trying to cut through the area.

[conspiracybeliever]

I didn't say anything about any color. I don't know that it has anything to do with what happened. I did say child. I don't care if he is 6'3". He is still only 17 and I call that a child and he was going to the store for candy. I can't believe there is even a question whether this guy should be prosecuted. He should be sitting in prison right now waiting for his trial. If it were the other way around and the 17 year old black kid had shot Zimmerman he would be. And yes I did use color this time because I believe that it is true that color matters when it comes to that.

[sam12six]

Mantis914, on 20 March 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

I was under the impression that neighborhood watch people were only supposed to notify the police if they happen upon legitimate suspicious activity.  I'm with the person that said earlier that they are surprised this person was armed.  In my experience, these types always do come with an attitude when you wander too close to the area they are guarding, even if you are just trying to cut through the area.

People who are actually part of organized watch programs generally do have a non-confrontation policy. Gung-ho, self-appointed lawmen of the neighborhood... not so much.

In fairness to the shooter, according to police, he had detained people in the past who later turned out to be vandals or burglars, for which the police rewarded him with pats on the head and a good belly scratch.

The negligence on his part comes into play when you consider that if you accost enough random people on the streets and attempt to detain them, sooner or later someone is going to resist. Stopping people on the streets and detaining them just because you don't like the way they look is bad (and illegal). Doing so armed in case they resist is just an exacerbation of the bad(and the illegal).

[conspiracybeliever]

Trayvon Martin Case Goes to Grand Jury, FBI as Devastating Final Phone Call With Girlfriend Is Revealed

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run." Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on scene.
http://act.alternet....3034.3XX7kq&t=2

[DoesntReallyLike]

I'm wondering if anyone remembers the story about Dwayne Austgen in 2009 who shot an unarmed trespasser, he was never charged with a crime:

http://www.39online....0,5106589.story

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Austgen black while the victim was hispanic? ( I could be thinking of a different story ). If so perhaps this needs to be revisited and the Justice Department should get involved?

Edited by Illuminerdi, 20 March 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[sam12six]

Thanks for posting that conspiracybeliever.

I'm glad that phone call exists. It's the next best thing to personal testimony as far as the victim's state of mind concerning the stranger creeping along behind him in a van as he walked down the street.

Quote

I'm wondering if anyone remembers the story about Dwayne Austgen in 2009 who shot an unarmed trespasser, he was never charged with a crime:

http://www.39online....0,5106589.story

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Austgen black while the victim was hispanic? ( I could be thinking of a different story ). If so perhaps this needs to be revisited and the Justice Department should get involved?

That looks more like a justified self defense thing. They know each other and the kid had a history of causing trouble in the area (and particularly for the shooter, according to the article). He told him to leave his property and showed him that he was armed. The kid left and came back and whatever actually happened led to the kid getting shot.

That's a far different picture from a guy who was known for giving strangers a hard time and even detaining and questioning them (which he had no authority to do) chasing a down a kid who was doing nothing wrong and shooting him.

[susieice]

Can't get link to work. Keeps coming up with vid of Mexico earthquake. Excerpts of the 911 calls were played by ABC News today. It's claimed that Zimmerman made over 3 dozen calls to 911 as he followed people around this gated community. Will try to find another way. I think I got it.
http://abcnews.go.co...-calls-15957343

Here's another story I found interesting.
http://abcnews.go.co...09#.T2lOycU1_NV

Edited by susieice, 21 March 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[conspiracybeliever]

On a tape of one of Zimmerman's 911 calls the night of the shooting, he is heard saying under his breath what sounds like "f**ing coons." Seconds later he confronted Martin and after a brief scuffle shot him dead.

[Yamato]

An errant case like this could prove the end of 'Stand Your Ground' in Florida.

[Eldorado]

You guys need Scottish Rule no.3657....

"Anyone expressing a genuine desire to join a "neighbourhood watch" should immediately be banned from doing so."

Having a Rambo in carpet slippers patrolling your streets is a recipe for tragedies such as this.

Edited by Eldorado, 21 March 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[sam12six]

Yamato, on 21 March 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

An errant case like this could prove the end of 'Stand Your Ground' in Florida.

I hope not. Chasing someone down with a pistol then getting into a fight that culminates with your shooting them is hardly standing your ground. As I mentioned earlier, if the law could be applied to anyone in this situation, it would be the guy who was stalked and accosted by a stranger.

Eldorado, on 21 March 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

You guys need Scottish Rule no.3657....

"Anyone expressing a genuine desire to join a "neighbourhood watch" should immediately be banned from doing so."

Having a Rambo in carpet slippers patrolling your streets is a recipe for tragedies such as this.

I'd apply the same law to jury duty...

Edited by sam12six, 21 March 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[conspiracybeliever]

sam12six, on 21 March 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

I hope not. Chasing someone down with a pistol then getting into a fight that culminates with your shooting them is hardly standing your ground. As I mentioned earlier, if the law could be applied to anyone in this situation, it would be the guy who was stalked and accosted by a stranger.



I'd apply the same law to jury duty...

You got that right!!!