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Iceage survivers


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Poll: Atlantis (31 member(s) have cast votes)

Who where the atlantians?

  1. No one (18 votes [58.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.06%

  2. Aliens (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. A human sivilisation (11 votes [35.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.48%

  4. A diffrent human species (2 votes [6.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.45%

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#16    Swede

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

In norway when the ice melted and the isolated warm regions was united with the rest of the world, two differrent cultures appears right away. One of them is called fosna and lived from the center of norway to the south. They had tools similar to cultures of longer south. They also develop new tools and teqnices, as they did to the south.

The other culture is a mysterious one. They suddenly appears out of nothing at the most northern place in norway, no moving traces has been found, not from east, south or west. And they have looked pretty hard and ruled this out. The only possible theory is that they survived the iceage inside the ice, isolated, or they came from now sunken island doggerland, a little known And understood culture. Their tools was quite primitive and the same type as the neandertals used 40-60 000 years ago. Not a single bone has been found from this culture, so we do not know what they looked like or what type of humanoid they was. Several of thousands of years later the fosna and komsa culture lived side by side but did not share any technology or trade with each other. This is more than strange. The komsa still used their primitive tools, no development and had semingly no peacefull connection with the fosna culture. Then around 8000 bc the komsa culture suddenly disappears from the human history. Only the fosna lived on. Not a single village or city has been found by this seaculture as they all lie underwater today. Only a few temperary hunting shelters on the highlands has been found, but they know their main villages lied near the coast as they was almost exclusively sea-oriented.

The main god of the stoneage norway was hel. A woman fertility godess. Thousands of places have the word hell in norway. The most common is helvete. Up in north during stoneage it was the woman who ruled. Men had little value and did not gather as much food as the women did. They hunted and was away much of the time, while the women gathered eggs, birds, berries, different seafoods, raised the children and took the important decisions in the village.

When the first skeletons and cities of the komsa culture comes to light in the future we might expect great surprises.

Your sources for the bolded above? This conceptualization would appear to be in conflict with current understandings.

.


#17    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 14 April 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Deep sea trawlers, teeth of time and underwater earthquakes and whatnot can destroy the evidence. Evidence of such things is not ever-lasting for many other reasons too.



By this, you probably mean that there should be some geological or other record of Atlantis disappearing like Port Royale did a few centuries back, 7.June.1692. It's a long time for the evidence to happen anything. I think it's safer to assume at least, that there wasn't a modern age like we're now experiencing where people could empty the life out of oceans by overfishing and overhunting like we do now. If that assumption holds water (assumption that there wasn't such advanced civilization there in that time, you'd see some more evidence of widespread tech I believe), then the ocean's fish and other animal populations should've been thriving. Maybe they even got their carbon hydrates out of sea too, like japanese do with seaweed, or at least have done. I dont see why they'd need land-food at all, or very little.

Deep sea trawlers only scratch the surface while core samples are taken at lengths of hundreds to thousands of feet. It's much like if you were to say that one sheet of paper is equal to an entire ream of paper. Obviously it's not.

Port Royale was a single city. Atlantis, as written by Plato, was of a size approximately 290 MILES by 290 MILES (84,100 square miles). So are you going to tell me that something that large, a little less than half the size of Spain, can completely disappear from the geological record in less than 12,000 years. Again, it must be magic.

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The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#18    Mikko-kun

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

The surface scratch of trawlers however destroys the visible forms of man-made sculping, making them more and more like natural rocks and whatnot. What makes you even think Atlantis disappeared completely? Why not just have a part of it sink just like what happened with Port Royale? I dont buy anything written as a face value (as in "someone else trust this, must be true), especially if I didn't live in that era. The size of the island could be different, it could also be that only part of the island was sunk. I think that more interesting than arguing whether or not such a thing is not possible, especially if you dont have anything concrete to back up your case either way, is to hypothesise where those possible civilizations could've been at that time. Norway does sound interesting but I'm a bit sceptical about that location if it was during the ice age era for obvious reasons, the global ice sheet should've been over there too. But if they were in that region and the remains there are dated few tens of thousands years back, then wouldn't it be likely they existed before the last ice age and that those islands sunk afterwards?

Perhaps poorly planned sevage or underground irrigation systems or venice-like building were to blame, although the last one doesn't seem too plausible because then there'd be more possible remains of cities. However, if you consider the condition in which some 10000+ years old underwater city remains in Chile and India coasts were found, the condition of those city remains, who knows. Rigid mind sees no possibilities, crafty mind explores them even if they're a dead end.

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#19    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 14 April 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

The surface scratch of trawlers however destroys the visible forms of man-made sculping, making them more and more like natural rocks and whatnot. What makes you even think Atlantis disappeared completely? Why not just have a part of it sink just like what happened with Port Royale? I dont buy anything written as a face value (as in "someone else trust this, must be true), especially if I didn't live in that era. The size of the island could be different, it could also be that only part of the island was sunk. I think that more interesting than arguing whether or not such a thing is not possible, especially if you dont have anything concrete to back up your case either way, is to hypothesise where those possible civilizations could've been at that time. Norway does sound interesting but I'm a bit sceptical about that location if it was during the ice age era for obvious reasons, the global ice sheet should've been over there too. But if they were in that region and the remains there are dated few tens of thousands years back, then wouldn't it be likely they existed before the last ice age and that those islands sunk afterwards?

Perhaps poorly planned sevage or underground irrigation systems or venice-like building were to blame, although the last one doesn't seem too plausible because then there'd be more possible remains of cities. However, if you consider the condition in which some 10000+ years old underwater city remains in Chile and India coasts were found, the condition of those city remains, who knows. Rigid mind sees no possibilities, crafty mind explores them even if they're a dead end.

The problem with the above is that if one has to selectively deconstruct and reinterpret the story as being something other than what is claimed then it's no longer the story of Atlantis, but what one wishes it to be. In the meantime many, MANY other actual prehistoric places don't get the recognition they rightfully deserve because there are those who are trying to pin any and everything to Plato's tale. That goes beyond being sad.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#20    Mikko-kun

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:53 PM

So true that, not that I know much of those other places, but the ones we've found already... quite a bit of those that haven't made it to the history books, right? I think much stigma around these subjects comes from documentaries where they jump into conclusions and try to create artificial excitement. I find the real history and more sincere speculation be far more exciting, too bad it doesn't seem to be translated to a documentary form as often. I even heard a rumor about some ancient ruins of civilization had been found on the bottom of my country's south sea gulf, the sea right west of St. Petersburg, Russia. It's so dirty water down there you barely see more than a meter ahead of you with a power-light when diving, thanks to our three major cities pumping waste there. History should be treated with more respect.

I've been born again 31,8,2014 approximately 21:35 local time. A moment free of clutter in the mind, emancipating myself like an escapist, allowing myself to breathe life in a stronger, less physical level... though it does resonate to physical world. It's the oomph.

#21    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 14 April 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

So true that, not that I know much of those other places, but the ones we've found already... quite a bit of those that haven't made it to the history books, right? I think much stigma around these subjects comes from documentaries where they jump into conclusions and try to create artificial excitement. I find the real history and more sincere speculation be far more exciting, too bad it doesn't seem to be translated to a documentary form as often. I even heard a rumor about some ancient ruins of civilization had been found on the bottom of my country's south sea gulf, the sea right west of St. Petersburg, Russia. It's so dirty water down there you barely see more than a meter ahead of you with a power-light when diving, thanks to our three major cities pumping waste there. History should be treated with more respect.

Many are so new they were never in the history books most of us grew up learning from to begin with.

So do I, unfortunately sensationalized and fabricated claims get more notice than the real thing. Reality is just more than some can handle.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#22    jaylemurph

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:26 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Even if platon made it all up, there still alot to be explained.

On this we disagree; I take it, by this statement, you assume every piece of fiction (philosophical metaphor or not), *must* be true. To this I say: I have some train tickets to Hogwarts available to sell for only $50.

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The stories of an advanced civilisation, giants, gods and a great flood.

I'm not aware of Plato discussing giants in Atlantis.

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The greek also mention hyperborea which is very similar to the atlantis story.

They also mention Hades, Tartarus and Ever-dusky Cimmeria. Field trip?

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Egyptians mention the seapeople, which could be the descendents of the atlantians.

By that logic, so could the Daleks. Plato never explicitly mentions stairs in the Republic...

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They also tell of a flood and survivers that came to egypt and helped them building the pyramids.

They do? I appeal to Kmt to see if we can get some confirmation of that.

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The bible has plenty of stories.

Indeed, there are some who say it's nothing but stories. (Really, your sense of logic appears to be if one thing in a source is true, the entire source is literally true. This seems an inadviable way to approach literature -- since you don't seem to be making a distinction amongst several significantly different genres. It's a maverick take on Comp. Lit., at any rate.)

Quote

And the nordic myth world also tells of giants, floods and advanced civilisations.

So is it /any/ different civilization in a myth gets chalked up to "a superior civilization"? Because the Romans would have seemed like that to a lot of Germanic tribes, but they hardly possessed anything we'd call 'superior'. (Except maybe work ethic.)

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The maya, sumer, japanese myths.. The list goes on and on.

I concede. You can cherry pick enough random mytholgical elements to make any comparison you want. You cannot, however, keep those facts in a coherent, informed context and make the same claims. Well, I suppose a general second-person 'you'-figure /could/, but they haven't. You certainly haven't.

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Are all this just inventions for a philosophical debate? Is there no truth to these stories? And who can with certanly say that all is made up.

No, but you've hardly proved these things are actually related (or, indeed, even vaguely akin). You don't even provide citation to prove what you're talking about, so who knows if anything you say is even true...

Quote

The lack of hard evidence for atlantis is not evidence that i dident exist.

Well, no, but you haven't produced an iota of hard evidence *for* anything, either. So far you're not a whit better off than my "The Daleks are real" theory.

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Heavens, whoever suggested the time for discovery is over? I mean, just because you can't prove anything certainly doesn't mean anyone else never will!

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#23    Myles

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:08 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 13 April 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

At that time no modern humans was in north europe, only neanderthals and maybe others.

Why are you so quick to state "no modern humans", but willing to state "maybe others". Do you have proof of either?


#24    whitegandalf

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:09 AM

I have some computer problems and been a bit busy lately and still are. so i will only answer some of the questions. I will answer the rest later..

About the atlantis and giants, as far as i know, there are no direct descripton in platons atlantis itself. But it does mention the names poseidon and his son atlas, which are well known persons in the greek myth world. Poseidon was son of the titans kronos and rhea, which was giants. Then i asume that poseidons people which he ruled over also was titans, or partly titan.

"They were immortal huge beings of incredible strength and stamina.."
http://en.wikipedia....itan_(mythology)


About  the referance to different humanoid in north europe before modern humans arrived besides the neanderthals.

First humans arrived south europe around 37 000 years ago in bulgaria and hungary. The denisovans lived in just outside northern eastern europe around 41 000 years ago. Only a small finger and a tooth has been found at this site, no other sites has been found besides one in south east asia too. It is alloved to presume that they could also have lived in other places and regions near the find sites. Very little are known about them their habitat areas, the way they look, exept that they were huge, according to the tooth. They are a variant of the neanderthals, but still very different acording to dna research.

"Analysis of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of the finger bone showed it to be genetically distinct from the mtDNAs of Neanderthals and modern humans"

http://en.wikipedia....enisova_hominin







#25    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:25 AM

Quote

First humans arrived south europe around 37 000 years ago in bulgaria and hungary.

Actually it was a bit earlier:

Pestera cu Oase Remains (HSS)  c.40,500 BP

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/4/1165

Grotta del Cavallo c.43,000-45,000 cal BP

http://medienportal....eviously-known/

Earliest modern human in Northwest. Europe:  c.42,200 - 39,500 BC

http://www.stonepage...ves/004593.html

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#26    Abramelin

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:38 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 16 April 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:



First humans arrived south europe around 37 000 years ago in bulgaria and hungary. The denisovans lived in just outside northern eastern europe around 41 000 years ago. Only a small finger and a tooth has been found at this site, no other sites has been found besides one in south east asia too. It is alloved to presume that they could also have lived in other places and regions near the find sites. Very little are known about them their habitat areas, the way they look, exept that they were huge, according to the tooth. They are a variant of the neanderthals, but still very different acording to dna research.


New Humans Had Huge Teeth

Along with the finger bone, archaeologists from the Russian Academy of Sciences, who excavated the site, discovered a single tooth that belonged to a Denisovan adult.

The tooth, a molar, is bigger than any modern human tooth and is even bigger than the biggest Neanderthal tooth. This could suggest Denisovans were "comparable in size to Neanderthals, maybe a little bit bigger," said George Washington University's Richmond.

Richmond cautioned, however, that tooth size isn't always a good indicator of body size. A hominin "can have big teeth and not be a giant," he said.


http://news.national...-fossil-finger/


#27    whitegandalf

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:35 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:



Deep sea trawlers only scratch the surface while core samples are taken at lengths of hundreds to thousands of feet. It's much like if you were to say that one sheet of paper is equal to an entire ream of paper. Obviously it's not.

Port Royale was a single city. Atlantis, as written by Plato, was of a size approximately 290 MILES by 290 MILES (84,100 square miles). So are you going to tell me that something that large, a little less than half the size of Spain, can completely disappear from the geological record in less than 12,000 years. Again, it must be magic.

cormac

Sometimes magic happens

Magic is lack of knowledge and understanding;)

There are several of islands, half the size of spain or larger, that have entirely or partly sunk in the atlantic, and the rest of the world past 12000 years and around that time.

Doggerland was about half the size of spain, it sank finally during the storegga tsunami around 8200 years ago. during a period of fast rising seawater and the sinking of its part of the tectonic plate which contributed.

http://no.wikipedia....:Doggerbank.jpg
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Doggerland

Iceland was orginally a larger island than spain (still is) that partly sank in the sea, because of rising sea after icesheetmelting from 20 000/15 000to 8 000 years ago. Iceland was a bit larger than spain 12 000 years ago. Some of it sank in the sea because it was liftet up because of the weight of all the ice on the tectonic plates. And when the weight disappered it sank to the bottom.

These gelogical phenomen can make islands disappear like magic

http://www.telegraph...-new-study.html

Svalbard island, north norway was 5 times larger than spain 12 000 years ago and most/much of it sank in the sea from 15 to 8 thousand years ago. Because of rising sea and sinking of the tectonic plate because. Same as above..

Islands can also sink during earthshakes and after a large volcano blowout. After the japanese earthshakes some seabed rised 50 meter up from the old sealevel. The same forces can also make areas and islands sink. Especially were tectonic plates meetes.

http://abcnewsradioo...study-says.html

An island rised 5 meters during the thailand earthquakes and tsunamies..

http://basementgeogr...nel-island.html



I dont get what these core samples are supposed to prove or how it disproves the sinking of large islands. Coresamples havent been taken everywhere, and not in the most interesting areas, as they were looking for oil and gas, not sunken islands.

Edited by whitegandalf, 16 April 2013 - 11:42 PM.


#28    whitegandalf

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:57 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 14 April 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:



Deep sea trawlers, teeth of time and underwater earthquakes and whatnot can destroy the evidence. Evidence of such things is not ever-lasting for many other reasons too.



By this, you probably mean that there should be some geological or other record of Atlantis disappearing like Port Royale did a few centuries back, 7.June.1692. It's a long time for the evidence to happen anything. I think it's safer to assume at least, that there wasn't a modern age like we're now experiencing where people could empty the life out of oceans by overfishing and overhunting like we do now. If that assumption holds water (assumption that there wasn't such advanced civilization there in that time, you'd see some more evidence of widespread tech I believe), then the ocean's fish and other animal populations should've been thriving. Maybe they even got their carbon hydrates out of sea too, like japanese do with seaweed, or at least have done. I dont see why they'd need land-food at all, or very little.


Around 7500 years ago some of the islands off coast of norway we know their practised domestication of animals as a suplementary food source, as their main food source was seafood and seabirds and eggs. As there were no wild dangerous animals on these islands they needed no one ta guard the animals. The cows and sheep just went around on the islands and grassed the grass all year round. As it still today very seldon get any lower than 0 degrees fahrenheit at the coldest nights in the winter, because of the warm golf stream that hits this area. 12-8000 years ago these islands was 95 percent larger than today. The climate was under that time quite a bit warmer than today, perhaps 5-6 degrees average. At winter there was not as much grass as during the summer, so they gave the animals seaweed from the sea.

Japan and northern norway has that in common that they are isolated places that changed slow during history. Impulses from the mediterian did not reach these outskirts of the world.

Edited by whitegandalf, 16 April 2013 - 11:59 PM.


#29    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:58 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 16 April 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Sometimes magic happens

Magic is lack of knowledge and understanding;)

There are several of islands, half the size of spain or larger, that have entirely or partly sunk in the atlantic, and the rest of the world past 12000 years and around that time.

Doggerland was about half the size of spain, it sank finally during the storegga tsunami around 8200 years ago. during a period of fast rising seawater and the sinking of its part of the tectonic plate which contributed.

http://no.wikipedia....:Doggerbank.jpg
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Doggerland

Iceland was orginally a larger island than spain (still is) that partly sank in the sea, because of rising sea after icesheetmelting from 20 000/15 000to 8 000 years ago. Iceland was a bit larger than spain 12 000 years ago. Some of it sank in the sea because it was liftet up because of the weight of all the ice on the tectonic plates. And when the weight disappered it sank to the bottom.

These gelogical phenomen can make islands disappear like magic

http://www.telegraph...-new-study.html

Svalbard island, north norway was 5 times larger than spain 12 000 years ago and most/much of it sank in the sea from 15 to 8 thousand years ago. Because of rising sea and sinking of the tectonic plate because. Same as above..

Islands can also sink during earthshakes and after a large volcano blowout. After the japanese earthshakes some seabed rised 50 meter up from the old sealevel. The same forces can also make areas and islands sink. Especially were tectonic plates meetes.

http://abcnewsradioo...study-says.html

An island rised 5 meters during the thailand earthquakes and tsunamies..

http://basementgeogr...nel-island.html



I dont get what these core samples are supposed to prove or how it disproves the sinking of large islands. Coresamples havent been taken everywhere, and not in the most interesting areas, as they were looking for oil and gas, not sunken islands.

Magic is what you see them doing in movies like Harry Potter, not in the real world. :rolleyes:  So now you're redefining 'magic'. Somehow it doesn't surprise me.

They can determine through core samples whether something was permanently submerged in water by the rising of the sea level as opposed to having suddenly collapsed into the ocean, which is what Atlantis was claimed to have done. As well as being able to tell when this happened. And yet nothing has been found to support the original claim as written by Plato. Core samples have been taken from the areas where Atlantis was claimed to have been, which are the only areas relevant to the discussion. Again, nothing supports Plato's claim. That you don't like it is irrelevant to the discussion.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#30    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:41 AM

View PostSwede, on 14 April 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:



Your sources for the bolded above? This conceptualization would appear to be in conflict with current understandings.

.

You are partly correct. It is not the leading theory today, but the research on the subject still is going on and the truth yet to be proved.

The theory is a bit over 100 years old. The first one to suggest that a tribe was inclosed by the ice during last iceage was a teacher who got very little support in the beginning. He dident give up and educated himself to an archelogist and wrote a book on the subject and later got much support. In periods up to the 1970, it was the one of the leading theories as the origin of the people komsa. Today most lean towards the doggerland theory or others, but the lack of evidence and knowledge aout the doggerlenders makes it still a open case. Later discoveries like geological and biological evidence ( last two years) for a warm region inside the ice during whole last iceage makes the theory more interesting.

"The team concludes that the trees probably survived in small "ice-free refugia," known to have existed in western Scandinavia"

http://news.sciencem...-chill-in-.html


In the extremely poor find base of the older stoneage period (9000 or older) in norway there exists more hypothesis and theories than evidence from the period. It is a very little understood period

There are written several books on the subject, people inside the ice, iceage survivers. I havent made it all up my self. Although i wish.

http://translate.goo....com/folket.htm

The stoneage cultures of south norway and north norway was distinctivly different until komsa culture suddenly disappeared. Acording to the leading theory they did not cope with the sudden climate change , it got warmer and the rapid rising sealevel. The new people of the north after komsa disappeared stayed partly isolated and did not change their lifestyle much either despite large improvements in toolmaking in the south. They say stoneage lasted in north norway until year 0, they sort of skipped bronseage, while in south the stoneage period ended  2000 years before, acording to the norwegian archelogical lexicon. They changed very slow, like other isolated areas of the world. And still used primitive tools similar to the neanderthals, long after the people in the south, when they disappeared.

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 12:59 AM.





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