Quran and Science

[Mainpoint]

I had this discussion in another unrelated thread. I am going to start this main thread as this is a big topic on its own. The Quran has been many verses and surprisingly a lot of them explain scientific phenomenon discovered only recently.

He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night. (Qur'an, 39:5)

Earth is round

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Universe is expanding

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

Big bang the creation of universe plus

Water as the main thing necessary for life on a planet

You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)

The movement of tectonic plates

Glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High: He Who created and moulded; He Who determined and guided; He Who brings forth green pasture, then makes it blackened stubble. (Qur'an, 87:1-5)

Creation of hydrocarbon fueles

You guys are free to add your own verses and discuss what they can possibly mean

[Nova Scotia]

Satan got a A plus in science in my opinion.

[meryt-tetisheri]

I had this discussion in another unrelated thread. I am going to start this main thread as this is a big topic on its own. The Quran has been many verses and surprisingly a lot of them explain scientific phenomenon discovered only recently.

Personally, I do not think that one should look at science for the validation or verification of holy books. These speak about spiritual truths, outside of that it all becomes a matter of interpretation, and a very loose one at that!

He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night. (Qur'an, 39:5)

Earth is round

How did you arrive to this interpretation?When we wrap a square gift box, that doesn't make it round!

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

Big bang the creation of universe plus

Water as the main thing necessary for life on a planet

I do not see sewing and stitching in the big bang theory! The verse mentions heavens AND earth, implying the presence of BOTH as a unit which were then separated or unstitched. According to Paul Shestople,"the big bang theory states that at some time in the distant past there was nothing. A process known as vacuum fluctuation created what astrophysicists call a singularity."That singularity, about 12 to 14 billion years ago, is estimated to have been only a few millimeters across.Working backwards from the big bang, at about between 10^-12 and 10^-10 seconds of the Big Bang vaccuum energy changes into a "seething soup of photons, gluons and other elementary particles." Hydrogen, lithium and helium occur only at 100 seconds, before atoms & molecules could exist.Domination of matter started only at 10,000 years, the first stars appear at 1 billion years! As for water, it is featured in many ancient creation myths including among others,near-by ancient Egypt where out of primodial water the "benben" mound arose on which the creator god emerged.

You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)

The movement of tectonic plates

I guess that should be only taken as figure of speech implying that like the fast movement or ethereal or nebulous nature of clouds, even mountains will pass, ie will not last.Tectonic plates do not move fast or go past anything.

Glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High: He Who created and moulded; He Who determined and guided; He Who brings forth green pasture, then makes it blackened stubble. (Qur'an, 87:1-5)

Creation of hydrocarbon fueles

Burnt grass, prarie fires? Hydrocarbon fuels do not contain stubble!

[Mainpoint]

I had this discussion in another unrelated thread. I am going to start this main thread as this is a big topic on its own. The Quran has been many verses and surprisingly a lot of them explain scientific phenomenon discovered only recently.

Personally, I do not think that one should look at science for the validation or verification of holy books. These speak about spiritual truths, outside of that it all becomes a matter of interpretation, and a very loose one at that!

He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night. (Qur'an, 39:5)

Earth is round

How did you arrive to this interpretation?When we wrap a square gift box, that doesn't make it round!

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

Big bang the creation of universe plus

Water as the main thing necessary for life on a planet

I do not see sewing and stitching in the big bang theory! The verse mentions heavens AND earth, implying the presence of BOTH as a unit which were then separated or unstitched. According to Paul Shestople,"the big bang theory states that at some time in the distant past there was nothing. A process known as vacuum fluctuation created what astrophysicists call a singularity."That singularity, about 12 to 14 billion years ago, is estimated to have been only a few millimeters across.Working backwards from the big bang, at about between 10^-12 and 10^-10 seconds of the Big Bang vaccuum energy changes into a "seething soup of photons, gluons and other elementary particles." Hydrogen, lithium and helium occur only at 100 seconds, before atoms & molecules could exist.Domination of matter started only at 10,000 years, the first stars appear at 1 billion years! As for water, it is featured in many ancient creation myths including among others,near-by ancient Egypt where out of primodial water the "benben" mound arose on which the creator god emerged.

You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)

The movement of tectonic plates

I guess that should be only taken as figure of speech implying that like the fast movement or ethereal or nebulous nature of clouds, even mountains will pass, ie will not last.Tectonic plates do not move fast or go past anything.

Glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High: He Who created and moulded; He Who determined and guided; He Who brings forth green pasture, then makes it blackened stubble. (Qur'an, 87:1-5)

Creation of hydrocarbon fueles

Burnt grass, prarie fires? Hydrocarbon fuels do not contain stubble!

I understand your skeptism. There are no exact words used. However my point is the wordings of Quran make scientific sense and there maybe scientific clues.

eg it doesnt flatly say "The earth is round"

What i am getting from these verses and if you read the Quran as whole is that Quran reveals so much about the universe the earth life etc but the verses are not direct. Why is that so?????

I have my own theory about why this maybe so

But lets see someone else try to answer my question

[Mainpoint]

I understand your skeptism. There are no exact words used. However my point is the wordings of Quran make scientific sense and there maybe scientific clues.

eg it doesnt flatly say "The earth is round"

What i am getting from these verses and if you read the Quran as whole is that Quran reveals so much about the universe the earth life etc but the verses are not direct. Why is that so?????

I have my own theory about why this maybe so

But lets see someone else try to answer my question

I agree with you man cannot use dogmatic statements or use scientific facts to say if religious teachings are factual.

If man strictly follows science according to the knowledge so far there cannot be a God .....Occams Razor........

But the fact of the matter is current science cannot deny existence of God as well. Nobody can conduct such an experiment.

My point by starting this forum is that if God wanted to have his creation (MAnkind) follow certain rules or regulations there must some sign some indications. There should be some stuff that man should be able to understand and say God exists!!!

It is very interesting how by using scientific facts (though not outright revealing scientific knowledge) Quranic verses can make sense to the inquisitive and scientific mind.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Just a quick observation.

In the christian bible, there is a reference to "the 4 corners of the earth", which non-believers use to say that the bible is in error, since we know the world is round; Believers, refute this passage saying that it is a figurative way of talking.

Why then, should these passages in the quran not also be considered figurative ways of speaking?

[sbradj]

that explains where the big bang theory came from...

[Mainpoint]

Just a quick observation.

In the christian bible, there is a reference to "the 4 corners of the earth", which non-believers use to say that the bible is in error, since we know the world is round; Believers, refute this passage saying that it is a figurative way of talking.

Why then, should these passages in the quran not also be considered figurative ways of speaking?

To me the statement "4 corners of the earth" clearly means a rectangular square, or a cuboid shape. That seems to be the most befitting explanation to this statement. Someone can tell me if they understand it any different maybe their explanation makes more scientific/logical sense.

The object of this thread is to discuss Quranic Verses.

I know a lot of christian visitors just have knowledge of bible and sometimes it can help to understand something if you compare 2 things especially with something you know already (I am not discouraging that) but i would like you guys to focus on Quranic verses. You guys can find them all over the internet.

[Jodie.Lynne]

and you neatly sidestepped my question mainpoint.

If a verse is one holy book is figurative ( according to its followers), why wouldn't a passage like this:

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

Also be considered figurative?

Isn't it stretching the idea a little too far to suggest that the above passage is related to the big bang theory?

Or are my questions no longer amusing?

[meryt-tetisheri]

I understand your skeptism. There are no exact words used. However my point is the wordings of Quran make scientific sense and there maybe scientific clues.eg it doesnt flatly say "The earth is round" What i am getting from these verses and if you read the Quran as whole is that Quran reveals so much about the universe the earth life etc but the verses are not direct. Why is that so????? I have my own theory about why this maybe so I agree with you man cannot use dogmatic statements or use scientific facts to say if religious teachings are factual. If man strictly follows science according to the knowledge so far there cannot be a God .....Occams Razor........But the fact of the matter is current science cannot deny existence of God as well. Nobody can conduct such an experiment. My point by starting this forum is that if God wanted to have his creation (MAnkind) follow certain rules or regulations there must some sign some indications. There should be some stuff that man should be able to understand and say God exists!!!

It is very interesting how by using scientific facts (though not outright revealing scientific knowledge) Quranic verses can make sense to the inquisitive and scientific mind.

I think we both have radically different points of view. Science neither proves nor disproves god's existence. Religion is based on faith, science is more in the realm of what could be critically examined, analyzed etc., so why are you looking for clues for God's existence in round about interpretations of Quranic verses? I am afraid the result is counterproductive. The basis of faith is believing in what cannot be proven, tested, or dissected. The test is to believe in God even though you can not see him or prove his existence. Otherwise it would not be "faith" but "knowledge".God is a spirit and can only be known by the spirit, not in the lab or by using a particle collider. I do not think that any indications or clues of God can be found in temporal scientific theories, eg, you mentioned that there are verses that prove to you the big bang is mentioned in the Quran , and I think also the expanding universe, but what if with the exponential growth of scientific knowledge, other theories are proven correct? What if it is finally big bang's rival, the theory of an endless universe? What about the big crunch?Will that prove that the verses you mentioned are wrong? if you are looking within the science of the day for proof of what is in your belief system timeless and infinite, you might end up with the opposite of what you hoped for, particularly if one is using tenuous interpretations.

[Moe]

All these verses can be interpreted many different ways. So, no the Quran does not really prove some of science's phenomenons.

[Bosanchero]

everyone STEP BACK, take deep breath, slap yourself and when you know you are fully awake repeat this 3000 times... "ALL RELIGIOUS BOOKS WERE WRITEN BY MAN AGES AGO" and trying to figure out what they mean or in which way it was writen is like letting a mentaly chalenged person create and operatin system for a pc... IMPOSIBLE...

[Mainpoint]

There are 2 questions/ comments people have put forward.

1. Why look at science to understand a religious book?. Thats a good question. The point someone raised is religion is base on faith and spirituality.

In order to better understand this questions we have to first answer what is religion? what is science?

And then the question becomes

Can these 2 disciplines overlap?

I dont think they can be kept entirely separate!!!!

Just consider origin of religion according to scientific scholars.

First and most primitive religions are known to arise from worship of relatively common day to day phenomenon.

Man started worshipping animals. Man started worshipping the sun and the stars the moon. Man also started worshipping statues and inanimate objects. Some primitve religions still involve a person bowing down in front of images which they may have created with their own hands!

It is thought this was pretty common in ancient times.

Lets take sun worship this is thought it was pretty common in the old days a good percentage of human beings worshipped the sun.

Now step forward in modern time if i am going to start a religion based on a solar deity How many people will follow me?????

I can safely say not many it will most ceratinly not be a popular religion.

What you may ask is the difference between man living long time ago and man living now to account for this difference in opinion?

I say the answer is simple. Man of today knows much more than the man living in ancient times. The advances in knowledge and science has led man to this conclusiion that sun is nothing but a lifeless celestial body that has fusion taking place and energy in form of light is transmitted from the surface of sun towards earth.

Science, knowledge religion and spirituality go hand in hand.

2. The other question is what about figurative vs literal interpetation of holy books?

My point is i will explain in a different way.

LEts take a religious book. This is actually true with most religious books

some of the stuff is clear which you can understand right away some of the stuff you have to interpret and still cant understand and some people may differ in opinion asto what the writing may mean.

As an example lets say there is a book that has written "though shall worship a monkey"

Now lets say there are some followers of this religion existing today. I tell them there is no scientific basis to worship a monkey. In response they may go oh that was just meant to be said figuratively. It means just take good care of your forests.

Ill tell them thats a loooooooong stretch. Your religion is asking you to worship a monkey and if you dont do that, that basically means either you dont believe in your religion or your religion maybe just made up.

Now coming back to the question basically in order to be fair first analyse closely what is written in the holy book figuratively and literally both ways. Science has discovered many things and many new words have popped up which had no equals in ancient time like eg cell, computer etc. So ancient manuscriots may have words that may replaced these things with something available in ancient times.

On the other hand if it is someting is quite apparently wrong in the scientific sense there is nothing figurative about it.

[MissMelsWell]

I've never quite understood what the problem is or why the turmoil between science and religion and why we insist on using ancient passages to prove or disprove science OR use science to prove or disprove religious texts. As a computer scientist, I can look at the Bible and traslate the below as Matthew's early proposal and support of Binary Code (and yes, people HAVE said this is the case).

Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

To me, it's a silly circle of endless debate that distracts people from the true meaning of God and God's word. It's really no different or silly than saying the Earth is Round because the Quoran says:

He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night. (Qur'an, 39:5)

Does either statement change your mind about your faith? Does eiher statement change your mind about science? In my opinion, never the twian shall meet and probably never should.

If some archeologist finds Noah's ark on a mountain in the Ozarks tomorrow with "Noah was here" written on the side and it looks nothing like the one the bible describes but proves it IS Noah's biblical ark, does that change my faith? NO.

If little green men from Mars land on the lawn of the White House sporting shirts with the image of Fox Mulder saying "We believe" is that going to change my faith? NO.

I could go on and on, but what's the point?

Edited February 18, 2007 by MissMelsWell

[3rd rock resident alien]

All Holy Manuals was created by man. Looking back to old times, it is a powerful human warrior who become their leader. He gives laws to follow so that all can have a guide of what is and not to do. Those who oppose their leader is put to death or let it suffer for all to see that by not observing such laws, this could happen to them.

Depending on geography, Those law was carried by its generations as their guide and have become their spirit. It is very valuable to them that it have let them survive all these years. As they spread such laws to areas they conquer, native people ask who wrote this law? To make it easier for the preacher of such laws, he just point up to the sky and said, it came from there.

It was written in Iron Age. It is time to change and correct all Holy Books and Manuals with its discrepancies.

[meryt-tetisheri]

"1. Why look at science to understand a religious book?. Thats a good question. The point someone raised is religion is base on faith and spirituality.

In order to better understand this questions we have to first answer what is religion? what is science?

And then the question becomes

Can these 2 disciplines overlap?

I dont think they can be kept entirely separate!!!!

Just consider origin of religion according to scientific scholars.

First and most primitive religions are known to arise from worship of relatively common day to day phenomenon.

Man started worshipping animals. Man started worshipping the sun and the stars the moon. Man also started worshipping statues and inanimate objects. Some primitve religions still involve a person bowing down in front of images which they may have created with their own hands!

It is thought this was pretty common in ancient times.

Lets take sun worship this is thought it was pretty common in the old days a good percentage of human beings worshipped the sun.

Now step forward in modern time if i am going to start a religion based on a solar deity How many people will follow me?????

I can safely say not many it will most ceratinly not be a popular religion.

What you may ask is the difference between man living long time ago and man living now to account for this difference in opinion?

I say the answer is simple. Man of today knows much more than the man living in ancient times. The advances in knowledge and science has led man to this conclusiion that sun is nothing but a lifeless celestial body that has fusion taking place and energy in form of light is transmitted from the surface of sun towards earth.

Science, knowledge religion and spirituality go hand in hand."

2. The other question is what about figurative vs literal interpetation of holy books?

My point is i will explain in a different way.

LEts take a religious book. This is actually true with most religious books

some of the stuff is clear which you can understand right away some of the stuff you have to interpret and still cant understand and some people may differ in opinion asto what the writing may mean.

As an example lets say there is a book that has written "though shall worship a monkey"

Now lets say there are some followers of this religion existing today. I tell them there is no scientific basis to worship a monkey. In response they may go oh that was just meant to be said figuratively. It means just take good care of your forests.

Ill tell them thats a loooooooong stretch. Your religion is asking you to worship a monkey and if you dont do that, that basically means either you dont believe in your religion or your religion maybe just made up.

Now coming back to the question basically in order to be fair first analyse closely what is written in the holy book figuratively and literally both ways. Science has discovered many things and many new words have popped up which had no equals in ancient time like eg cell, computer etc. So ancient manuscriots may have words that may replaced these things with something available in ancient times.

On the other hand if it is someting is quite apparently wrong in the scientific sense there is nothing figurative about it."

1) I completely agree with MissMelsWell's point. However, I will add that inherent in your reply is the assumption of a determining causal relationship between scientific knowledge and evolution of religion. If that was the case, how would one then explain the rise of monotheistic religions a couple of thousand years ago at a time when science was far less advanced than now, or the presence of polytheistic religions in this era? Anthropologists would say: look for socio-cultural factors. Believers would look for revelation. In either case, it was not that man stopped worshipping natural forces because science explained it all away.

2) If you believe that the Quran is the literal and infinetely relevant word of God, then you should be able to assume that if he wanted to include in it scientific revelations, he would have introduced the appropriate terms also even if these terms were not current 1400 years ago. A while back you refused to accept that "four corners of the earth" in the bible could be taken figuratively to mean something else, like the four cardinal points (north/south/east/west) for example; yet you see the big bang, hydrocarbon fuels and tectonic plates in vague interpretations of Quranic verses. The question you should ask yourself then is whether you trying to apply an objective principle to all holy books, or are you as a believer seeking validation and verification of the Quran via scientific revelations in it? To conclude, I come back to my main point, science and religion do not explain or validate each other.

Edited February 18, 2007 by tetisheri

[Mainpoint]

Quran Verse 49:13

049.013 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

How true this verse is today.

There are some more questions raised asto why this type of thread should be started in the first place.

In order to answer that i will put forward 2 biblical verses that were mentioned earlier

Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

I think it is a good chance this verse may refer to the binary code of communication, which the author posted. Yes Yes No No could mean 1 1 0 0. We have found digital communication is better than analogue communication. World most powerful computers run on this form of communication. I dont know about analogue communication being EVIL but i can imagine this verse referring to modern binary form of communcation which is much more effective than analogue.

Now the other one actually i found 2 places where the term 4 corners of the earth is mentioned someone can correct me if there are any textual errors

From the Bible, Isaiah 11-12 (King James Version):

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

& Revelation 7-1:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Someone suggested it points to a compass N S E W. Ok so even if it points to a compass it means the earth is diamond shaped. So if you go North the earth is going to end once the corner is reached. If you go south again the same thing.

Above is an example of the type of intellectual decision i am looking at

The main point of faith and spirituality is open your eyes not shut them close

A lot of people have skeptism in their faith. Most of the time what happens is that you go to your neighborhood preacher and ask them some tough questions like the above and the answer you will get is have some faith

The ancient aztecs had faith .

They used to sacrifice young children and virgin.

Were they wrong??? Absolutely. but how could they not have figured it out if they just shut their eyes and just listened to their priests.

My point is faith is not blind

Like i have said earlier

If you believe God gave MAN free will. He would give man signs and indications to differentiate right from wrong.

Don't shut your eyes examine what you believe with science logic and knowledge.

Science Logic and knowledge can only make ones faith stronger and more righteous.

[Mainpoint]

Quran Verse 49:13

049.013 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

How true this verse is today.

There are some more questions raised asto why this type of thread should be started in the first place.

In order to answer that i will put forward 2 biblical verses that were mentioned earlier

Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

I think it is a good chance this verse may refer to the binary code of communication, which the author posted. Yes Yes No No could mean 1 1 0 0. We have found digital communication is better than analogue communication. World most powerful computers run on this form of communication. I dont know about analogue communication being EVIL but i can imagine this verse referring to modern binary form of communcation which is much more effective than analogue.

Now the other one actually i found 2 places where the term 4 corners of the earth is mentioned someone can correct me if there are any textual errors

From the Bible, Isaiah 11-12 (King James Version):

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

& Revelation 7-1:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Someone suggested it points to a compass N S E W. Ok so even if it points to a compass it means the earth is diamond shaped. So if you go North the earth is going to end once the corner is reached. If you go south again the same thing.

Above is an example of the type of intellectual decision i am looking at

The main point of faith and spirituality is open your eyes not shut them close

A lot of people have skeptism in their faith. Most of the time what happens is that you go to your neighborhood preacher and ask them some tough questions like the above and the answer you will get is have some faith

The ancient aztecs had faith .

They used to sacrifice young children and virgin.

Were they wrong??? Absolutely. but how could they not have figured it out if they just shut their eyes and just listened to their priests.

My point is faith is not blind

Like i have said earlier

If you believe God gave MAN free will. He would give man signs and indications to differentiate right from wrong.

Don't shut your eyes examine what you believe with science logic and knowledge.

Science Logic and knowledge can only make ones faith stronger and more righteous.

I made a small typo in the above posting its DISCUSSION not DECISION.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Quran Verse 49:13

049.013 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

How true this verse is today.

There are some more questions raised asto why this type of thread should be started in the first place.

In order to answer that i will put forward 2 biblical verses that were mentioned earlier

Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

I think it is a good chance this verse may refer to the binary code of communication, which the author posted. Yes Yes No No could mean 1 1 0 0. We have found digital communication is better than analogue communication. World most powerful computers run on this form of communication. I dont know about analogue communication being EVIL but i can imagine this verse referring to modern binary form of communcation which is much more effective than analogue.

Now the other one actually i found 2 places where the term 4 corners of the earth is mentioned someone can correct me if there are any textual errors

From the Bible, Isaiah 11-12 (King James Version):

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

& Revelation 7-1:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Someone suggested it points to a compass N S E W. Ok so even if it points to a compass it means the earth is diamond shaped. So if you go North the earth is going to end once the corner is reached. If you go south again the same thing.

Above is an example of the type of intellectual decision i am looking at

The main point of faith and spirituality is open your eyes not shut them close

A lot of people have skeptism in their faith. Most of the time what happens is that you go to your neighborhood preacher and ask them some tough questions like the above and the answer you will get is have some faith

The ancient aztecs had faith .

They used to sacrifice young children and virgin.

Were they wrong??? Absolutely. but how could they not have figured it out if they just shut their eyes and just listened to their priests.

My point is faith is not blind

Like i have said earlier

If you believe God gave MAN free will. He would give man signs and indications to differentiate right from wrong.

Don't shut your eyes examine what you believe with science logic and knowledge.

Science Logic and knowledge can only make ones faith stronger and more righteous.

Mainpoint, you presented your point of view, mine happens to be diametrically opposed to yours! For me, the main point of faith and spirituality is communion with God, to open your heart and not shut it close. Such communion can only be achieved by loving him with all one's heart, soul and trusting (having a blind faith in) his goodness and mercy; and trying to the best of one's abilities to emulate Him (whose sun shines on the good and the bad) in loving others as oneself. This is what purifies the heart and the spirit and makes faith stronger and more righteous. That does not imply running to the "neighborhood preacher", and towards that end, I do not believe that scientific theories or facts would be of any relevance. Otherwise, I might end up substituting Brian Greene or M. Kaku for the local preacher On a more serious note, science is always evolving, what was scientific fact yesterday might be proven a fallacy tomorrow. If one is to tie one's faith to scientific 'revelations' of the day, one could end up with the miraculous holy book proven erronous, the opposite of the objective you started with. It is a double edged sword that is very blunt on the side you want to use, very sharp on the side you want to avoid since it depends on very loose circumventive interpretations. An example would be the Matthew quotation you cited above. I do not see how it could have anything to do with binary code. I believe it simply means being truthful and honest & avoid devious long answers. However, lets assume it has to do do with the binary code, now that quantum computers are on the way, they will use 0 ,1 and a superposition of both, should my faith become weakened because the verse didn't say 'yea', 'nay', 'both' or 'maybe'? Seeking scientific clues in holy books can lead us to very weird and absurd results. You are right that God gave man free will, signs and indications to differentiate right from wrong but these fall in the realm of spirituality and morality, the only ones that count in our relationship with God. He did not need to prove himself to us by giving us clues to how he created the natural world. This is what I believe.