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#1951    Harte

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 23 January 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

I probably shouldn't stick my nose in but just to clarify, and maybe Proctis covered it above but isn't it Critias the Elder who tells it at Apaturia, not hears it..? Critias the young hears it as a child about 10, and also has the unfinished poem.

I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten.

Yes.  C the E heard it from Dropides (who heard it from Solon) and re-told it at the festival when he was ninety.  My bad.

Harte

Edited by Harte, 23 January 2013 - 09:10 PM.

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#1952    Harte

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostProclus, on 22 January 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

My attitude has reasons, my dear fellow forists! *SIGH*

First, you fully ignore the fact mentioned by me, that Plato opposes Greek oral and Egyptian written tradition. You simply just ignore it. This is so pseudo-science ... ha! You are not willing to find out the truth, it is obvious that you only search for reasons to debunk my ideas, but not for the opposite. This is not scientific. *sigh* again.

Then, Critias 113b: (Critias the participant of the dialogue is speaking):
"My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child."

I know your next move: "These are only the names! The writings contain only the names! Only the names! The names!! Only!!!"

My answer is: These writings are the draft of Solon's planned poem which center around the names of the dramatis personae, as usual when drafting such a poem. You never saw how a writer drafts a novel or a drama or the like? He begins with writing down the persons and how they interact. --- And how can someone carefully study in a paper which only contains names?!

Plato's Atlantis story as "oral tradition"? Ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.
I only included the term "orally" because Critias the Elder heard it that way.

If you want my opinion, is wasn't a "tradition" of any kind, of course, Plato having made it up and all...

And you're right.  Critias is talking about the names the Egyptians had translated into Egyptian from "Atlantean" - as if there ever was such a language.  It clearly states that Solon had copied these names down and "hellenized" them for future use in a poem he was planning :

Quote

Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners.

I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language.

My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child. Therefore if you hear names such as are used in this country, you must not be surprised, for I have told how they came to be introduced. The tale, which was of great length, began as follows:-

Same part of the Critias you quoted from, only a more contextual quote. Now, from Timaeus:

Quote

Crit. Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us. There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the destruction of mankind, and one in particular, greater than all the rest. This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival.

Soc. Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?

Crit. I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of fashion. One of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, but also the noblest of poets. The old man, as I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said, smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or Hesiod, or any poet.
The above very clearly shows that Critias the Elder heard Dropides recite Solon's poem, remembered it, and recited it decades later.  Critias (elder or younger) never read any draft of this poem (that, in fact, Solon never wrote.) Not only did Solon never write this poem, the entire scene is an utter fabrication.

So, here's what I said:

Quote

Critias (the younger) never read Solon's poem.

Please point out how what I said disagrees with Plato's allegory.

Here's what you said:

Quote

You did not read that Solon had some written stuff on it in which Critias read when he was young?
As you said, the statement from Plato is that Solon wrote down the names of people and places and translated them.  That is all Plato says on the matter, isn't it.  So, if by "wrote down some stuff on it" you mean wrote down names and translated them ("hellenized" them,) then you're right.

Anything else is simply not the case, since Solon never wrote the poem in the first place, and Egyptians never had some story about Atlantis in the second place, and Atlantis is an allegorical location that never existed in the third place.

This is according to what Plato wrote.  What posters on internet forums write does not counter this fact.

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#1953    DieChecker

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:38 PM

Just read the last 10 pages and it does seem Proclus is deriding others well supported points while putting forward his own opinions and claiming they have greater authority. He seems to clearly be ignoring or discounting actual physical evidence and relying mainly on his own opinions.

I'm going to have to side with the Skeptics on this, that Atlantis is an unevidenced creation of Platos mind. Why would he make up such a story? That has been figured out for many centuries. He was making a political, ethical and moral point using Atlantis as an example. Using a fictitious nation absolves him of anyone being offended.

Critias also says that the Gods created the world and divided it by lots and that people sprang up out of the earth. Does anyone believe that? Or is SOME of Critias true and some false? Hummm.... and how to tell?

Edited by DieChecker, 23 January 2013 - 09:39 PM.

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#1954    Proclus

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostHarte, on 23 January 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

If you want my opinion, is wasn't a "tradition" of any kind, of course, Plato having made it up and all...

I really do not intend to continue this debate, especially not on this low level :-)

But let us stop the debate here, let us think silently on the words of Plato's dialogue (in a usually bad translation):

"I will briefly inform you ................ the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our leisure in the sacred registers [no "registers" in the original, but written text] themselves"

The priest: "O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ......... there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, ................... And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind ...................... Whereas in this land [Egypt], neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. ............... And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples."

"Solon, who was intending to use the tale [the original Greek never says "tale"!] for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child."

etc.
etc.


@DieChecker:
( a ) The physical argument does not count in my case since I do not search an Altantis 9600 BC  in the Atlantic but a historically-critically deciphered distorted tradition -- again the phenomenon that a late-comer starts the discussion at zero-point, but no blame on you, DieChecker.
( b ) You ask: "Critias also says that the Gods created the world and divided it by lots and that people sprang up out of the earth. Does anyone believe that?" The answer is: Plato believed that. The point is, as I pointed out in the Gomperz thread, that Plato believed greater parts of the story than modern people usually imagine. (PS: You do not describe Plato's position exactly, but ok, this is not so important here.)
( c ) I will not discuss this all again.
( d ) Thank you that you acknowledged that I make my points.

_



Edited by Proclus, 23 January 2013 - 09:50 PM.

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#1955    questionmark

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostProclus, on 23 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:



I really do not intend to continue this debate, especially not on this low level :-)

But let us stop the debate here, let us think silently on the words of Plato's dialogue (in a usually bad translation):

"I will briefly inform you ................ the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our leisure in the sacred registers [no "registers" in the original, but written text] themselves"

The priest: "O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ......... there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, ................... And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind ...................... Whereas in this land [Egypt], neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. ............... And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples."

"Solon, who was intending to use the tale [the original Greek never says "tale"!] for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child."

etc.
etc.


@DieChecker:
( a ) The physical argument does not count in my case since I do not search an Altantis 9600 BC  in the Atlantic but a historically-critically deciphered distorted tradition -- again the phenomenon that a late-comer starts the discussion at zero-point, but no blame on you, DieChecker.
( b ) You ask: "Critias also says that the Gods created the world and divided it by lots and that people sprang up out of the earth. Does anyone believe that?" The answer is: Plato believed that. The point is, as I pointed out in the Gomperz thread, that Plato believed greater parts of the story than modern people usually imagine.
( c ) I will not discuss this all again.
( d ) Thank you that you acknowledged that I make my points.

_


If you got that from his post I have a good explanation why you believe in the existence of Atlantis and the content of Plato's fable factual.

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#1956    Proclus

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 23 January 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

If you got that from his post I have a good explanation why you believe in the existence of Atlantis and the content of Plato's fable factual.

As I understood, DieChecker wanted to point out that I allegedly tried to push away themes and arguments which easily could debunk my positions by putting forward less important themes where I can make some points. Yes, that is how I understood DieChecker. Let's talk on the exegesis of DieChecker's words! In contrary to Plato he is still alive and we can ask him what he really meant!

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#1957    DieChecker

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostProclus, on 23 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

@DieChecker:
( a ) The physical argument does not count in my case since I do not search an Altantis 9600 BC  in the Atlantic but a historically-critically deciphered distorted tradition -- again the phenomenon that a late-comer starts the discussion at zero-point, but no blame on you, DieChecker.
( b ) You ask: "Critias also says that the Gods created the world and divided it by lots and that people sprang up out of the earth. Does anyone believe that?" The answer is: Plato believed that. The point is, as I pointed out in the Gomperz thread, that Plato believed greater parts of the story than modern people usually imagine. (PS: You do not describe Plato's position exactly, but ok, this is not so important here.)
( c ) I will not discuss this all again.
( d ) Thank you that you acknowledged that I make my points.

Isn't the Physical arguement CORE to the existance of Atlantis or not? Why argue about flying pink elephants if the Candyland they live in can not be located. And the writings about these elephants then would be equally ficticious. If Atlantis's physical location cannot be located, then it cannot be physically supported as being real. Without a real place to point to, arguing about their culture, motives and if the histories handed down are real is futile. At least IMHO.

Did not Critias say 10,000 years? How it is you can discount some of what he says and not other very specific parts? Do you only take what supports your own ideas?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#1958    DieChecker

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostProclus, on 23 January 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

As I understood, DieChecker wanted to point out that I allegedly tried to push away themes and arguments which easily could debunk my positions by putting forward less important themes where I can make some points. Yes, that is how I understood DieChecker. Let's talk on the exegesis of DieChecker's words! In contrary to Plato he is still alive and we can ask him what he really meant!

Yes, there were many examples in the first several pages of your postings that did exactly that. Other posters wrote facts and you basically dismissed the facts because you wanted to focus on "What if".

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#1959    Proclus

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 23 January 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

Other posters wrote facts and you basically dismissed the facts because you wanted to focus on "What if".

Thank you that you support my understanding of your first posting, but no, really, save me from writing again and again the same ... there are several threads now started by me in the last weeks, you will find them easily and there you will find that I do not dismiss "facts" (if they are facts) and that I do not focus on "what if" - it's more complicated, the "factual" perspective is a "what if", too, in many cases. Thank you for your understanding and good night! PS: I inserted the "not" :-)

Edited by Proclus, 23 January 2013 - 10:43 PM.

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#1960    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 23 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

If Atlantis's physical location cannot be located, then it cannot be physically supported as being real. Without a real place to point to, arguing about their culture, motives and if the histories handed down are real is futile. At least IMHO.

But there were empires in recent history that we know little about. Or even wars.
Take example of Khazaria. And Arab-Khazar wars. We dont know nothing about Khazar Arab wars.

Imho, if Atlantis physical location cant be located that doesnt mean it wasnt real. Who say that we wouldnt find it?
People think on Helike was myth untill we re discover it.

Lets try some thought experiment.

How long modern human exist? Lets say 50 000 years. Isnt logic that civilization rise and fall all the time?
Maybe we have had civilization before Atlantis. Lets say 30 000 years ago which flourished 2000 years and disapeared.

Thats is second reason why I got interested in history. First was rise and fall of civilizations. Second was, why history is written last 10 000 years differently?
Historians are specalized in certain period. Short periods. But if you look at history on long periods many interesting questions are raised.

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#1961    cormac mac airt

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

View Postthe L, on 23 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

But there were empires in recent history that we know little about. Or even wars.
Take example of Khazaria. And Arab-Khazar wars. We dont know nothing about Khazar Arab wars.

Imho, if Atlantis physical location cant be located that doesnt mean it wasnt real. Who say that we wouldnt find it?
People think on Helike was myth untill we re discover it.

Lets try some thought experiment.

How long modern human exist? Lets say 50 000 years. Isnt logic that civilization rise and fall all the time?
Maybe we have had civilization before Atlantis. Lets say 30 000 years ago which flourished 2000 years and disapeared.

Thats is second reason why I got interested in history. First was rise and fall of civilizations. Second was, why history is written last 10 000 years differently?
Historians are specalized in certain period. Short periods. But if you look at history on long periods many interesting questions are raised.

If its physical location and timeframe, as claimed by Plato whose account is the only one that matters, can't be located then yes it DOES mean it wasn't real. Particularly since there are no other accounts of its existance by any  other name prior to Plato's writings that are relevant and known to both Greece and Egypt. Which are the two countries it's supposed to be concerned with.

30,000 years ago was both in the Stone Age as well as the latter part of the last glacial period when the population of anatomically modern humans/Homo sapiens sapiens/US was too low and two widespread to develope a civilization. Specific criteria of which have to be met in order to qualify as such. This was also well before the domestication of agricultural foodstuffs such as wheat, barley and grapes, etc. as well as before the domestication of livestock such as pigs, goats, cattle and horses. All of which plays its part in what qualifies as a civilization. No such evidence for a culture meeting these requirements prior to 10,000 BC exists.

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#1962    DieChecker

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:17 AM

View PostProclus, on 23 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Thank you that you support my understanding of your first posting, but no, really, save me from writing again and again the same ... there are several threads now started by me in the last weeks, you will find them easily and there you will find that I do not dismiss "facts" (if they are facts) and that I do not focus on "what if" - it's more complicated, the "factual" perspective is a "what if", too, in many cases. Thank you for your understanding and good night! PS: I inserted the "not" :-)

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#1963    DieChecker

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:01 AM

View Postthe L, on 23 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

But there were empires in recent history that we know little about. Or even wars.
Take example of Khazaria. And Arab-Khazar wars. We dont know nothing about Khazar Arab wars.
And have there been mentions of Khazaria in the texts of historians? Have items attributed to Khazaria been authenticated? Hasn't the broad area of where these people lived been outlined? The Khazars ived in what is now southern Russia, the Caucus, and the northern Middle East. Where did the Atlantians live?

Did the Arabs write of the wars? Yes, I think they did.

Looks like the Byzantines knew where they lived and traded and even allied with each other. Who did Atlantis trade with and who did they ally with?

Quote

Imho, if Atlantis physical location cant be located that doesnt mean it wasnt real. Who say that we wouldnt find it?
People think on Helike was myth untill we re discover it.
Hey, I'm willing to admit there was likely a real inspiration for Atlantis in the real world, but the Discussion of where and when and who was there is Core to the discussions of Atlantis itself. You can't distance the location of Atlantis from the history of Atlantis.

Quote

Lets try some thought experiment.

How long modern human exist? Lets say 50 000 years. Isnt logic that civilization rise and fall all the time?
Maybe we have had civilization before Atlantis. Lets say 30 000 years ago which flourished 2000 years and disapeared.

Thats is second reason why I got interested in history. First was rise and fall of civilizations. Second was, why history is written last 10 000 years differently?
Historians are specalized in certain period. Short periods. But if you look at history on long periods many interesting questions are raised.
Sure. There may be some lost civilizations/cities out there. Some may have even had "advanced" technology for their day, but the whole story of Atlantis reads like a fairy tale. It is like saying that Narnia, or Middle Earth is real because you identify some real world item, legend, story or place with something from those fictional worlds.

I do agree that history is often not as simple as lines drawn on a map and labeled 869 Europe (year taken at random). It is actually usually much, much, much more complicated then that. Because everywhere in history are real people. Who have alliances, treatys, truces, fueds, wars, trade, marriages.... ect... which all complicate things and often don't show up in the history books or maps for 869. But can a gigantic civilization that conquored Africa, Asia and Europe hide from history, except for a single man's morality tale? Could the Athenians, a single tribe of Proto-Greeks (in 10,000 BP), probably numbering in the tens of thousands defeat an army that conquored every one else? The answer is that it is almost certainly no. But, could Atlantis be based on a real even, and a real society... sure. But where, and when is the question??

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#1964    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 23 January 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

30,000 years ago was both in the Stone Age as well as the latter part of the last glacial period when the population of anatomically modern humans/Homo sapiens sapiens/US was too low and two widespread to develope a civilization. Specific criteria of which have to be met in order to qualify as such. This was also well before the domestication of agricultural foodstuffs such as wheat, barley and grapes, etc. as well as before the domestication of livestock such as pigs, goats, cattle and horses. All of which plays its part in what qualifies as a civilization. No such evidence for a culture meeting these requirements prior to 10,000 BC exists.

Far as we know we are widespread. You tell that for rising civilization we need wheat or barley? Or pigs, goats, horses? Euroasia isnt only example of civilizations.
We have civilizations in America which didnt have nothing you mentioned above.

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#1965    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

Diechecker,

We know less about Khazaria then others empirse. We dont know where their capital was. And we dont know nothing about their wars with Arabs. Or if you want we know very little.
Almost nothing. And Arabs didnt wrote much either.
Atlantians lived beyond pillars.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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