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More on free will.


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#76    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 03:32 AM

Tangerine Sheri on Jan 10 2009, 03:53 AM, said:

Mw As mentioned here by you, cause and effect is something that drives our decisions,   but you must also remember that this cause and effect is going on inside the physical brain which in turn drives our decisions. If you look at the human mind and its decision making capabilities as a state machine the decisions we make are already decided by the state of the brain at any particular time we choose to make a decision.

so if we are to turn  back  time (and not know the outcomes and have everything in the exact same state) would anyone make any different decisions?, IMO no, everything would unfold exactly as it has.

Sure, you can say, hey I can make a decision (in comes the free will illusion) to either conclude that something is sensible or not  or wait  10 minutes from  now  but you will always only make one decision - then   if you turn l back time, you will always make the same decision because the components upon which you have made that decision will or have remained the same....

Ah i see ithink where your confusion lies.As a linear being we often confuse the properties of the past and present withthe future. We only have experienced the past and the presentand this assume the future is somehow directly connected in an inescapable linear manner. In reality this is not so. The future simply does not exist. Absolutely anything is possible (although for the reasons you outline, certan things are more probable than others eg a rock will normally fall downhill)

At our point in linear time there is not one future, but a multitude of possible futures. This is simply the way it is. This is much more the case once sapience is included in the equation, because sapience by its nature, increases the potentialities of the universe significantly. The mere existence of life increases potentialities, but any sapience increases those potentialities significantly more, eg a rock has a limited number of potentialities. A plant has more. A sapient being through its sapience increase the numbers again.

If this was not the case, our one single possible future would be as documented as our past. WE woud be able to see and extrapolate it from past and present events. Because no future actually exists yet, this is impossible. It is only our fixed past which leads us to think that in our past we only had one option. Actually we had many. Oonly when we chose one of those potentialities and acted on it did it become reality and form a part of our history. Back then, you had lots of options open to you. You do now, but because you havent made them, each one has a distinctive potentiality.

As we get closer to the present those options/potentials reduce for a variety of reasons; logic cause and effect etc.

Research funded by the cia indicates that within about 3 seconds of the future the future does become largely fixed Ie people have a chance of accurrately predicting what will happen in side of 3 seconds time, but this still allows for independent variables (like a last sec change of mind) changing that future even within the 3 seconds.
The further we are from the future, the more potential variables, and thus more potential futures there are. ANy one of them, or any one minute detail of them ,could turn out to be our real present and then our past.

Almost nothing of an individuals life or even a nations life  say 100 years in the future can possibly be preordained or predicted by current conditons in the world. Again our one linear history tends to make us think this way bt it is not so. The american civil war was never inevitable. Neither was kennedy's presidency or his assassination While cause and effect influences the linear time line it does not solely determine it..

Look at it this way. Create a fully sapient robot. Observe it for a while,. Then have a go at predicting its actions. You  probably will not be able to because it will be inherently unpredictable.

Humans have some predictable traits but they also have many unpredictable ones,The interaction between sapient beings also makes prediction impossible becuase of the exponential increase in potentialities when humans react with each other.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#77    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 04:17 AM

Mr Walker on Jan 9 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

yes he could. Do you truly feel that is how your life and the universe around you is playing out? This is another example where i find it hard to comprehend how you could come to such a viewpoint but that of course does not make me right or you wrong.

I dont understand your reference to uniqueness. We are not robots. Because we have free will we can make mistakes learn and grow. The way i see it, ech human thread in the tapestry of life is unique and golden , but its path and contribution to the total tapestry of life is not fixed according to some template or pattern created by/ of god. We contribute to the pattern it creates both in itself, and in the total tapestry of life,  at every warp and weft and junction point within the tapestry.

Yes it could all be a dream, but its probably more sensible and productive to conclude that it is not, and to then act as if it is not. The same applies to free will.

While the failure to believe in it is harmless enough, a failure to act as if we have free will, and can make a difference, could be catastrophic to self and our local universe.
Imagine living your everyday life acting consciously in the belief that you had no free will and that nothing you  chose to do or not do, influenced the outcome of anything. And if you believe it is an illusion(either life or free will) then what is the motivation in acting on an illusory reality?


by uniqueness I mean that God is able to provide each with a unique path and running it.

we think we have free will and make choices. mistakes can be part of that path on purpose.  yes I believe we each are a thread and contribute.

you think there is no templet. yet your not supposed to be fully aware of it . If you were you wouldn't be leading a truely human existence and experiencing it.  I myself struggle with If all goes according to Gods plan then why does so much of it suck ?? I have to remember I'm not God and have no clue as to the why.  I only have to trust there is a reason even if it doesn't make sense to me.

lack of free will doesn't mean we live like we don't have free will. that's the point your missing. the illusion that we have free will when actually all goes according to plan. Like I stated if we were constantly aware that we had no free will we'd lose out on the experience. The surprise party that you know about ahead of time doesn't hold any surprise experience.  it's that experience that motivates us. think of the soul and your human being as 2 separate things. like a train - the soul is the track and we are the cars.

If there were no idea of God ? of course there would be free will. but by the very idea of God as an all knowing ect.... being , then free will is negated. it just isn't logical that an all knowing being gives free will. it's an oxymoron.

- out of curiosity - do you think you meeting your wife was free will or destiny/fate/predetermined by God ?




#78    Mistydawn

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:17 PM

norwood1026 on Jan 5 2009, 09:35 PM, said:

Augustine of Hippo once aruged that the will of God belonged to God & not man; that whether someone was good or evil had already been ordained by God.            


What say you?


Maybe I am getting old. Seems to me , that there is a price for everything... new clothes, new furniture and food.  A price for free will too. NOTHING is free. He/She, God/Fate, will make you pay in the long run. Hope you can afford the price. dontgetit.gif

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#79    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:27 PM

Mistydawn on Jan 10 2009, 07:17 PM, said:

Maybe I am getting old. Seems to me , that there is a price for everything... new clothes, new furniture and food.  A price for free will too. NOTHING is free. He/She, God/Fate, will make you pay in the long run. Hope you can afford the price. dontgetit.gif


so, then there is no free will in your opinion?
or if there is, it comes at a hefty price?

Edited by Agent. Mulder, 10 January 2009 - 06:28 PM.

the truth is out there....

#80    Mistydawn

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:47 PM

Agent. Mulder on Jan 10 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

so, then there is no free will in your opinion?
or if there is, it comes at a hefty price?


I do believe there is 'free will' but I believe also, that there is a pre-ordained price to pay for every action...like nothing you do or say, is new and everything you do or say has a price-tag already tied to it...

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#81    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:53 PM

Mistydawn on Jan 10 2009, 07:47 PM, said:

I do believe there is 'free will' but I believe also, that there is a pre-ordained price to pay for every action...like nothing you do or say, is new and everything you do or say has a price-tag already tied to it...


interesting take on that.
so would you go as far as saying that God knows whats going to happen? its not news to them at all?
they know what we will do and say, and i guess were charged for that (in the long run then).

the truth is out there....

#82    Darklight

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:53 PM

Mistydawn on Jan 10 2009, 05:47 PM, said:

I do believe there is 'free will' but I believe also, that there is a pre-ordained price to pay for every action...like nothing you do or say, is new and everything you do or say has a price-tag already tied to it...


Salaam (Peace)

I think maybe instead of "free-will" I'll use the phrase "ability to choose", which doesn't really come free.




#83    Karlis

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:21 PM

Hi folks – here are parts of my previous posts on this thread, concerning my personal opinion based on Bible Scriptures God developing Godly character in Man. Hope what I wrote makes some sense as to how God is growing his future Family, through developing character in mortal humans, who eventually will be ‘born again’ as immortal spirit children of God the Father.



… in "growing", we grow in spiritual character. Or, by not choosing to exercise free will in a positive way, we stunt our spiritual growth.
Either way, our character grows or fails to grow -- and that growth will determine our future. That is my view concerning "free will", folks.



… if one does not believe in the God of the Bible then one's choices will not be based on the principles laid down by that Creator God. That person will do what seems right in his own mind.
However, this is in line with Bible teachings as I see these teachings; such a person will live out their life according to their perceptions of "right and wrong", and will die, to be later resurrected back to a mortal physical body. Then the principles will be revealed to them by God, and they will have their first and only opportunity to chose their eternal future.



According to the Bible there is only one true Creator God who has laid out Man's destiny, and given Man the choice. God has advised: choose life.
By the way -- as I see it, there is no "second chance", according to Bible Scriptures. Once a person understands the way to salvation (immortal life in God's Family), but consciously rejects it, that is the end of the story for that person's future, since Christ will not shed His blood of reconciliation a second time for anybody.




For some specific reason God has not revealed God's plan of salvation to the majority of humanity -- don't ask me why not. It's just the way it seems to be.
For instance, one of the reasons why Jesus spoke in parables to the crowds, was so that they would not understand about salvation, and not repent and be saved, during their lifetime.


I wonder how many on these boards see what I mean?
Kind regards to one and all,
Karlis


#84    norwood1026

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:54 PM

Karlis on Jan 10 2009, 08:21 PM, said:

For some specific reason God has not revealed God's plan of salvation to the majority of humanity -- don't ask me why not. It's just the way it seems to be.
For instance, one of the reasons why Jesus spoke in parables to the crowds, was so that they would not understand about salvation, and not repent and be saved, during their lifetime.


I wonder how many on these boards see what I mean?
Kind regards to one and all,
Karlis




More then likely only those who believe as you do will see it from your POV. One more thing perhaps your God doesn't want to save everyone.... just a thought.

Edited by norwood1026, 10 January 2009 - 08:14 PM.

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#85    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 08:25 PM

norwood1026 on Jan 10 2009, 07:54 PM, said:

More then likely only those who believe as you do will see it from your POV. One more thing perhaps your God doesn't want to save everyone.... just a thought.


hmm, if that was the case, i Would be curious as to why they wouldnt.
interesting thought norwood.

the truth is out there....

#86    norwood1026

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 08:44 PM

Agent. Mulder on Jan 10 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

hmm, if that was the case, i Would be curious as to why they wouldnt.
interesting thought norwood.




I've always wondered about that why only preach the gospel to people in that part of the world?    

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#87    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 08:56 PM

norwood1026 on Jan 10 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

I've always wondered about that why only preach the gospel to people in that part of the world?    


yuppers.
thats one of the Biggest flaws ive seen with christianity and religions. it was Only preached over there. and only came into play at a certain time. god Only decided to send down his son to talk to people, in this Specific area, while god Continued to let Others World Wide worship whatever they want. even though its a sin, as its a 'false idol'. this jealous and angry god allowed this? he didnt smite Anyone until jesus came around. and all the other religions were 'talking' to their gods. either god impersonated those ones for fun, so those cultures believe their god but now theyll burn in hell. or their gods are as real as the judeao-christian one. or as fake. now, how did this happen? why did this happen?
god was man made for that geographic area, as were ther other gods in Other areas and generations.
IMO, thats the only real explanation.

the truth is out there....

#88    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 09:32 PM

Mistydawn on Jan 10 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

Maybe I am getting old. Seems to me , that there is a price for everything... new clothes, new furniture and food.  A price for free will too. NOTHING is free. He/She, God/Fate, will make you pay in the long run. Hope you can afford the price. dontgetit.gif


lmao too true.


#89    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 12:52 AM

Lt_Ripley on Jan 10 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

by uniqueness I mean that God is able to provide each with a unique path and running it.

we think we have free will and make choices. mistakes can be part of that path on purpose.  yes I believe we each are a thread and contribute.

you think there is no templet. yet your not supposed to be fully aware of it . If you were you wouldn't be leading a truely human existence and experiencing it.  I myself struggle with If all goes according to Gods plan then why does so much of it suck ?? I have to remember I'm not God and have no clue as to the why.  I only have to trust there is a reason even if it doesn't make sense to me.

lack of free will doesn't mean we live like we don't have free will. that's the point your missing. the illusion that we have free will when actually all goes according to plan. Like I stated if we were constantly aware that we had no free will we'd lose out on the experience. The surprise party that you know about ahead of time doesn't hold any surprise experience.  it's that experience that motivates us. think of the soul and your human being as 2 separate things. like a train - the soul is the track and we are the cars.

If there were no idea of God ? of course there would be free will. but by the very idea of God as an all knowing ect.... being , then free will is negated. it just isn't logical that an all knowing being gives free will. it's an oxymoron.

- out of curiosity - do you think you meeting your wife was free will or destiny/fate/predetermined by God ?
Thank you for explaining this. i do not agree and will continue to accept the illusion as reality, but i can appreciate your pov more. Your question about my wife made me think. Atm we are approaching our 33 wedding anniversary. She, understandably is cranky withhow much time i am spending on the internet, and if i am here less often you will know why. I have to make a free will decision to spend more time with her before she makes one to  toss the computer against the wall.

. As i see it a series of events led to me meeting my wife at my 21st birthday party, but none of those events was predestined and it might not have happened.

Falling in love was a supernatural experience and still is. I know all the biological arguments, and modern psychological explanations , but that sort of love and its effect on ones physical and emotional perceptions does not last 33 years.

So i think god played a direct intervening role in that case. I think, in my past, god did things to stop me marrying other women, just as he does things to keep me alive and well.

One example is the time i was sneaking a young and willing lady down to our beach shack for a night of fun and frolic. We hit a kangaroo, wrecking my parents car, entailing some embarrasing explanations, and  preventing the assignation from reaching its logical conclusion. Other wise i could well have been marrried to her, with a whole different life history.
If the kangaroo had not intervened, my history would have been different, and i do not believe that alternate life was any less potentially possible than my present one.
Perhaps strangely, however, this only reinforces my belief in free will. If my life was all predestined, god would not have to intervene so physically and overtly, or so often, to alter one outcome to another. He would just let my destiny run its course, and i would not be aware of all the alternate possibilities, including many in which i would have died.
He often chooses to intervene to alter the results of my free will choices,where they will bring me some sort of harm, but for 99.99% of them he does not, perhaps because any one of the potential futures is acceptable to him..

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#90    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 03:18 AM

Mr Walker on Jan 10 2009, 07:52 PM, said:

Thank you for explaining this. i do not agree and will continue to accept the illusion as reality, but i can appreciate your pov more. Your question about my wife made me think. Atm we are approaching our 33 wedding anniversary. She, understandably is cranky withhow much time i am spending on the internet, and if i am here less often you will know why. I have to make a free will decision to spend more time with her before she makes one to  toss the computer against the wall.

. As i see it a series of events led to me meeting my wife at my 21st birthday party, but none of those events was predestined and it might not have happened.

Falling in love was a supernatural experience and still is. I know all the biological arguments, and modern psychological explanations , but that sort of love and its effect on ones physical and emotional perceptions does not last 33 years.

So i think god played a direct intervening role in that case. I think, in my past, god did things to stop me marrying other women, just as he does things to keep me alive and well.

One example is the time i was sneaking a young and willing lady down to our beach shack for a night of fun and frolic. We hit a kangaroo, wrecking my parents car, entailing some embarrasing explanations, and  preventing the assignation from reaching its logical conclusion. Other wise i could well have been marrried to her, with a whole different life history.
If the kangaroo had not intervened, my history would have been different, and i do not believe that alternate life was any less potentially possible than my present one.
Perhaps strangely, however, this only reinforces my belief in free will. If my life was all predestined, god would not have to intervene so physically and overtly, or so often, to alter one outcome to another. He would just let my destiny run its course, and i would not be aware of all the alternate possibilities, including many in which i would have died.
He often chooses to intervene to alter the results of my free will choices,where they will bring me some sort of harm, but for 99.99% of them he does not, perhaps because any one of the potential futures is acceptable to him..


see by your example with the Kangaroo I see it as predestination/fate. All of it was according to plan it's just sometimes we really get a clear glimpse of it. You may have had to have had that experience trying to sneak that young lady away for some fun as well.  

I think as human we can't live life and really experience it if we are living in a consistently aware state. Otherwise what would be the point of life at all ? We ourselves may already know every step we take too if what we are is a piece of God , our souls being such.  ( time being irrelevant to God and to our own souls if indeed both are 'forever'.)

Maybe you needed that lady you were with in order to witness hitting the kangaroo ? there by getting a glimpse to be aware of the fabric underneath ? that it wasn't at all really about the girl in the first place ?





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